[The King]

Originally Posted by shashanka

I think 1800-2500 with a reasonably flat torque curve is adequate for most needs, if they are providing the low-ratio transfer case with the 4WD option. That provides wall-climbing grunt for most situations. My 2004 Scorpio with the 2.6 non-crde engine had more-or less similar rpm characteristics (1800-2500). And after tramping around Uttaranchal for over 14 years, it never us down from the grunt point of view.

Who would in his sane mind will use 4X4 LOW on a tarmac surfaces having steep incline/gradient in bumper to bumper traffic? I hope you know that no one wants transmission windup !

Scorpio 2.6 engine is a torque monster[much higher torque availability than Thar crde even at idling] , you can find enough references on this forum. Starting from stand still on an incline requires the torque right from the idling, which your Scorpio has it naturally.

Originally Posted by shashanka

To be honest this whole business with low-end grunt & rpm characteristics is getting a bit long in the tooth!

I disagree with you here because, the vehicle under consideration is not a sedan or hatchback we are discussing about....... For a vehicle having 4X4 capability, its always "obvious" to have low end grunt for "obvious above mentioned scenarios".

[//M]

My friend saw a test mule of the new Thar in Ladakh yesterday, he says the Thar looks not only wider, but taller as well than the current gen car aided with generous ground clearance. According to him, the presence of the vehicle, despite having a camouflage wrap, is quite similar to a Wrangler.

With so much uncertainty regarding the launch of the Jimny and Jimny Sierra in India, the upcoming Thar has the potential to grab a major part of this pie.

The added creature comforts will only widen the appeal of the upcoming Thar.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by The King

Who would in his sane mind will use 4X4 LOW on a tarmac surfaces having steep incline/gradient in bumper to bumper........

I agree certainly - anyone with a basic grasp of the central diff/ viscous coupling applications in AWD systems would seem to need psychiatric care if he wanted to make prolonged use (of a Bolero-style 4WD) on “tarmac surfaces having steep incline/gradient in b-to-b traffic”. And torque-wind-up on such vehicles is a highly over-rated disaster – as the longevity of earlier M&M 4WD products with beam axles front & rear, testifies.

Also the off-roading “sport” in India is still a relatively recent pastime – as the participants in Bishnoi-style off-roading jamborees will acknowledge.

For the real off-roading devotee, one need look no further than those few genuinely brave souls (Black Pearl, 1100D and others come readily to mind) on this forum who have ventured on their own to places like Sandakphu & back – without the benefit of the gang-sport kind of back-up & safety-net! And that too, they are doing so on such essentially simple vehicles as the Bolero & the Scorpio.

And so I continue to believe that this storm in a tea-cup about low-end grunt & rpm characteristics is more of an arm-chair sport than otherwise!

[The King]

Originally Posted by shashanka

And so I continue to believe that this storm in a tea-cup about low-end grunt & rpm characteristics is more of an arm-chair sport than otherwise!

Could be an arm chair sport for ya.

Certainly, not for people like me who experience it on realtime basis. My own experience has lot to tell. (Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque)

Originally Posted by shashanka

And that too, they are doing so on such essentially simple vehicles as the Bolero & the Scorpio.

Both Scorpio[SZ2600] and Blackpearl's Bolero[MDI3200TC] have much better low end grunt than Thar CRDe.


We do have a thread for this very reason already where many members have already voiced their opinion about who the current generation

Thar does lack low end grunt. (Thar CRDe: Improving its low-end torque)

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by The King

Current generation Thar has torque band from 1800 to 2500 RPM. Below 1800 , it's a dead cow. You won't be able to march the vehicle between midway on a steep incline in first gear without touching the accelerator. To march it you need bit of clutch slippage and acceleration beyond 1800 RPM to make it moving.

Originally Posted by shashanka

And so I continue to believe that this storm in a tea-cup about low-end grunt & rpm characteristics is more of an arm-chair sport than otherwise!

Originally Posted by The King

Both Scorpio[SZ2600] and Blackpearl's Bolero[MDI3200TC] have much better low end grunt than Thar CRDe.

Actually I feel the current THAR CRDe's poor "CRAWL" is not just the engine's fault. The gearing ratios of the transmission are a contributor to it too. Agreed that the torque curve is poorer than the 2.6 engine (which was shoehorned to make the 2.5) but that is expected when the displacement reduces. Low end torque is a direct equation of the displacement BELOW the turbo-charger spool up range. So larger the better in NA mode.

But this could have been easily offset with shorter first gear to achieve those RPMs easier without much accelerator inputs. The crawl ratios of the Thar are also relatively worse than the CLASSIC or MM550. Its easily evident when the jeep is left to roll down slopes. Thar goes much faster in comparison.

I know I'm not exactly on your topic of discussion, but intruding a bit with my observation on the crawl characteristics.

[The King]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Actually I feel the current THAR CRDe's poor "CRAWL" is not just the engine's fault. The gearing ratios of the transmission are a contributor to it too. Agreed that the torque curve is poorer than the 2.6 engine (which was shoehorned to make the 2.5) but that is expected when the displacement reduces. Low end torque is a direct equation of the displacement BELOW the turbo-charger spool up range. So larger the better in NA mode.

But this could have been easily offset with shorter first gear to achieve those RPMs easier without much accelerator inputs. The crawl ratios of the Thar are also relatively worse than the CLASSIC or MM550. Its easily evident when the jeep is left to roll down slopes. Thar goes much faster in comparison.

I know I'm not exactly on your topic of discussion, but intruding a bit with my observation on the crawl characteristics.

The Bolero with MDI3200TC 2.5L engine has lower Final Drive ratio of 3.73 vs 4.31 of Thar CRDE, still it has better incline climbing ability than Thar. Bolero Comes with NGT520 and THAR comes with NGT530, both have similar ratio first gears i.e. 3.78.

Lack of Torque in 2.5 L NEF Thar engine is due to the fact its stroke travel length is less [an oversquare engine characteristic as already explained in the link given in my previous post], where as both SZ2600[square engine] and MDI3200[undersquare engine] have longer stroke travel lengths 94mm and 101.6mm respectively, Thar has 90mm stroke travel length only.

I am not even expecting the Thar to crawl like MM550s but atleast it should climb the steep tarmac inclines without clutch slippage.

[nishkamm]

This time the 2020 Thar was spied testing along with a XUV300 with a BS6 engine.

Source: Rushlane.

https://www.rushlane.com/2020-mahind...-12323545.html

[peterjim13]

Sharing the pic I saw in one of the automotive groups I am a part of in Whatsapp.

The person who shared this claimed to have captured these pics around Ooty and had mentioned about multiple sightings of the same cars around Ooty, Coonnor, Kotagiri area.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by shashanka

To be honest this whole business with low-end grunt & rpm characteristics is getting a bit long in the tooth!

I party agree with you. Most people who sing praises about the MDI3200TC engine have never used on one a regular basis.

That engine is dead beyond the low end torque. I had it for a couple of years on my Thar DI and got so fed up of not being able to safely overtake even an Ashok Leyland Dost that I chucked it off and put in an SZ Plus engine. The MDI3200 definitely has a better bottom end than the SZ Plus, but for me it is also about having some mid range and also top end. This is where the SZ Plus is overall a much better engine. People keep harping about bottom end without considering overall drive ability. Their logic makes sense in a tractor, but not in a passenger SUV.

Originally Posted by peterjim13

The person who shared this claimed to have captured these pics around Ooty and had mentioned about multiple sightings of the same cars around Ooty, Coonnor, Kotagiri area.

I live here and Mahindra does lot of high altitude testing here in Ooty. Have seen these a a couple of times around.

[satishchugh]

Saw this test mule in Pune in Bumper to bumper traffic. Looks much bigger than current Thar, height is good - Scorpio category.

[SandyX]

Slightly OT wrt to new-gen Thar 'SUV'. MDI deserves to be defended. And deserves its place as well in the new line up.

To those who tend to mud the MDI3200TC motor, I'm sure they do know it sits in a Roxor as well since it's essentially the Thar DI. Everything below quoted from real sources, the people who jeep.

Let's see what the US market found out.

This is the MDI3200TC with stage 2 tune. 115 WHP, ~350NM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbgRVmzvmTo

Here's the same motor on a US highway going past fast trucks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqlIzkDw1bw

Highest recorded speed of this motor @98mph = 157.7kph. (This may be dyno)
Highest real-world recorded @82mph = 131.9kph
Below screenshot 0-60mph in 17s.


Let's see if S2 tune take hit on engine health. That's ~70-90degC with S2 tune depending on the tap.


The same S2 Roxor is also called a Billy Goat. So it got the "grunt", mid-range and high end as needed.

f******k.com/groups/169724703819892/ should tell more about how the well ignored MDI is now evolving.

Just because the Indian market never got around to figure out this simple & robust motor doesn't mean it's not capable. And it got some story to it. US market unlocked this motor in a matter of a few months and they're yet to stop. R&D talk is now about twin-turbo this thing. The motor is more than capable & durable in the right hands.

[nsbhagwat]

Originally Posted by SandyX

Slightly OT wrt to new-gen Thar 'SUV'. MDI deserves to be defended. And deserves its place as well in the new line ....

Isn't the Roxor an off-road only vehicle? Cuz when the news of FCA suing Mahindra over design infringement came to the fore, that was the argument put forward - it is a farm only off-road vehicle. It will not be driven on public road.
Please correct me if I'm mis-stating.

[SandyX]

Originally Posted by nsbhagwat

Isn't the Roxor an off-road only vehicle? Cuz when the news of FCA suing Mahindra over design infringement came to the fore, that was the argument put forward - it is a farm only off-road vehicle. It will not be driven on public road.
Please correct me if I'm mis-stating.

It's the same vehicle at the core. US laws will never allow a design of such vintage be road legal at federal level. So it's classed under ORV. And that way it won't clash in with current FCA products. Basic hardware, capabilities and possible enhancements are same as Thar DI(M2dicr). There are plenty of roxors on US roads with state permits.

If the new gen Thar ends up in US, it might be road legal federally. But that would run squarely into FCA and the troubles.

[asingh1977]

Not sure what to say. If the 7x front slat is omitted — it seems more like a Scorpio. The essence of a Jeep is narrow hood. It seems way too wide in the prototypes. Not happy. Thar 4x4, deprecated, will be the last Indian Jeep, I guess.

[1100D]

Part of me wants Mahindra to use 9-slat grille instead of 7 slats. Agreed that 7-slat signifies the Jeep lineage, but for the whole war that gave birth to this machine, it used a 9-slat grille rather than 7. Besides Willys MB/Ford GPW would be more affluent vehicles to pay homage to.