[simeonovitch]

This is how I feel the next gen Thar is going to look

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

I party agree with you. Most people who sing praises about the MDI3200TC engine have never used on one a regular basis.

That engine is dead beyond the low end torque. I had it for a couple of years on my Thar DI and got so fed up of not being able to safely overtake even an Ashok Leyland Dost that I chucked it off and put in an SZ Plus engine. The MDI3200 definitely has a better bottom end than the SZ Plus, but for me it is also about having some mid range and also top end. This is where the SZ Plus is overall a much better engine. People keep harping about bottom end without considering overall drive ability. Their logic makes sense in a tractor, but not in a passenger SUV......

I find this obsession with low end torque, odd. And you've nailed it fair & square - without the mid & top end, the MDI engine is well-suited to agricultural use only. As mentioned by SandyX, the M&M set-up in the US seems to have worked round this developmental block - and added respectable mid-and-top end performance for highway cruising!

Short throw over-square configurations are well suited to spark-ignition engines, where combustion characteristics pose no restrictions & insane crank-shaft speeds are par for the course, with gearing taking care of torque multiplication and high cruising speeds.

Unlike diesels - having compression ignition - where combustion characteristics (comparatively low-speed flame front propagation) have restricted c/shaft speeds, even with CR technology. However this is where the under-square, long throw configuration shines - providing high average MEPs and the resultant high crank-shaft torque.

Albeit with the rider that t/charging (or some other form of pressure scavenging) is mandatory to take full advantage of CR tech.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Actually I feel the current THAR CRDe's poor "CRAWL" is not just the engine's fault. The gearing ratios of the transmission are a contributor to it too. Agreed that the torque curve is poorer than the 2.6 engine (which was shoehorned to make the 2.5) but that is expected when the displacement reduces. Low end torque is a direct equation of the displacement BELOW the turbo-charger spool up range. So larger the better in NA mode.

But this could have been easily offset with shorter first gear to achieve those RPMs easier without much accelerator inputs. The crawl ratios of the Thar are also relatively worse than the CLASSIC or MM550. Its easily evident when the jeep is left to roll down slopes. Thar goes much faster in comparison.

I know I'm not exactly on your topic of discussion, but intruding a bit with my observation on the crawl characteristics.

The MDI engine seems to have been rejuvenated (see SandyX's post) in the Roxor. I wonder why M&M did not bother about the Indian market but waited to launch the Roxor (with essentially the same engine) before developing it to the point where it has acquired respectable low, mid & top end performance. Another case of inverted snobbery/chauvinism? - Let us suck up to the US market & screw the Indian buyer?

[tilt]

Well, according to the official spec sheet for the Roxor, top speed is not what was mentioned a few posts ago, but is only 55 mph (88 kmph).

Ref: https://d3lwr7t4tsy765.cloudfront.ne...eet_010919.pdf

And, this is the 2019 model. I remember earlier models said 45 mph.

Now, I do not know whether these official specs are being sandbagged for compliance purposes while actual performance is much higher, or if the people who tested the car mentioned a few posts ago have done something to the car.

Either way, the car, as is being sold, is not street-legal, and requires a few add-ons to make it street-legal.

Cheers

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by shashanka

Just because the Indian market never got around to figure out this simple & robust motor doesn't mean it's not capable.

Nobody said it doesn't have potential. What we are saying is that in stock condition it is pathetic? Do you have any idea of the cost involved in these modifications ?
In India, it is cheaper to buy an SZ Plus or an mhawk, that no one will spend few lakhs to make an MDI3200 TC 115 bhp. There is no cheap way to do it.
BTW, have you owned any vehicle with an MDI3200TC for any length of time? Or is it arm chair appreciation ? I have a Thar DI (No longer with MDI3200 TC) a 4WD Pick up and a 2WD Pick up.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Nobody said it doesn't have potential. What we are saying is that in stock condition it is pathetic? Do you have any idea of the cost involved in these modifications ?
In India, it is cheaper to buy an SZ Plus or an mhawk, that no one will spend few lakhs to make an MDI3200 TC 115 bhp. There is no cheap way to do it.
BTW, have you owned any vehicle with an MDI3200TC for any length of time? Or is it arm chair appreciation ? I have a Thar DI (No longer with MDI3200 TC) a 4WD Pick up and a 2WD Pick up.

I think the wires are crossed somewhere - I went thru my post & I could not find the above quote any where!

And you are right, the development costs may certainly be high - but did M&M know that the Roxor would be a hit commercially & so carried out the development there. The cost here in India would certainly be less than in the US.

And you are again right, the only M&M product I've had is the SZ powered Scorpio of 2004 vintage. And I assume that the contributors here (who are MDI3200 veterans, like yourself) know what they are talking about.

[SandyX]

Originally Posted by tilt

Well, according to the official spec sheet for the Roxor, top speed is not what was mentioned a few posts ago, but is only 55 mph (88 kmph).

That's the speed restriction from the factory as part of the sxs class it was forced to sit in. With a Stage 1 tune, speed limiter is removed with some HPs & Nms added. With a Stage 2 tune, HPs & Nms almost doubled. A clutch upgrade is recommended for S2 users but the stock clutch is still holding fine for them.

There are no mechanical enhancements required with S1/S2 tunes. Only the firmware is upgraded. The process is as simple as unplugging the ECU & mailing it to tuner address with a one-day turnaround. ECU not even needs to be opened up to do the upgrade. Plug the tuned ECU back in and one gets a whole new vehicle. This voids warranty. So there's an option to keep stock ECU as backup and get a generic ECU with upgraded tune. The mechanicals are found to be holding up well to the performance increase.



Cost(Dieselfreak):
Stage 1 @500USD
Stage 2 @600USD (100USD upgrade for Stage 1 users)

One doesn't have to feast on the vehicle three times a day to form an opinion based on facts, which are quoted with references. This was also mentioned before the original post. I've my own times with the vehicle and proof is of no relevance here. It's only fair to accept someone got to the untapped potential first on something which was sitting forgotten in our own basement.

Originally Posted by shashanka

but did M&M know that the Roxor would be a hit commercially & so carried out the development there. The cost here in India would certainly be less than in the US.

This R&D on the engine that gave the boost is not done by M&M. It's the aftermarket tuning houses playing with the motor. The factory engine in US has an even more restricted state with 55mph max speed for regulation purposes.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by shashanka

I think the wires are crossed somewhere - I went thru my post & I could not find the above quote any where!

Sorry, it was meant for the person, who keeps singing praises about the MDI3200TC but never owned on . Not sure how the wiires got crossed.

[KMT]

Does the Indian DI Thar have an ECU? I have not seen one. Perhaps the newer DI engines have it.
Or is it the MI2DCR engine?

In addition its surprising that the HP can be doubled by fuelling only.

I am wondering wether the export engine has some differences to the one we are/were sold.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by SandyX

.....This R&D on the engine that gave the boost is not done by M&M. It's the aftermarket tuning houses playing with the motor. The factory engine in US has an even more restricted state with 55mph max speed for regulation purposes.

Thanks SandyX - as always a thoroughly informative post! Very disappointing though that the tuning houses in India did not get there first. Are we really world-class front-runners in software R&D as is touted so often? This enhancement would have surely have added to the market appeal of the Thar here & added to the box-office returns.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by KMT

Does the Indian DI Thar have an ECU? I have not seen one. Perhaps the newer DI engines have it. Or is it the MI2DCR engine?

For the last two years or so, both Bolero and Thar DI come with M2DICR engine or what is called internally as a Low Cost Common Rail Engine. Which is essentially an MDI3200TC with a low cost common rail system attached. This one has an ECM. My uncle bought a Bolero 4WD with this system a couple of months ago. The NVH is slightly better than the previous version, but power/torque output is the same.

[Durango Dude]

All said and done, Thar is a "purely recreational" vehicle with very niche focus. It can't be used on regular roads and the backseat is pure 'bakwaas' reserved for equipment/poultry. Mainly used by Marlboro men to impress women. A smaller percentage would put it through intended use: "mud plugging". Main uses would be by farm landowners, rural folk and 'pahadi' log.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Sorry, it was meant for the person, who keeps singing praises about the MDI3200TC but never owned on . Not sure how the wiires got crossed.

No issues there mate! - Happens with me all the time!

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by shashanka

Thanks SandyX - as always a thoroughly informative post! Very disappointing though that the tuning houses in India did not get there first. Are we really world-class front-runners in software R&D as is touted so often? This enhancement would have surely have added to the market appeal of the Thar here & added to the box-office returns.

Just wanted to add the following -

The reason for M&M not to have done it themselves is probably - as you mentioned in your post - the voiding of the warranty. For that to remain valid, after-market tuning would not be enough. Strengthening of the engine scantlings, and probably of the crank-shaft too, to take care of the much higher MEPs would be needed, to remain within safe stress thresholds. Now that kind of work is serious stuff.....

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by shashanka

For that to remain valid, after-market tuning would not be enough. Strengthening of the engine scantlings, and probably of the crank-shaft too, to take care of the much higher MEPs would be needed, to remain within safe stress thresholds. Now that kind of work is serious stuff.....

Well said. Once can bump up an engine about 10% to 15% without reducing the longevity much. But bumping it up drastically without mechanical upgrades is not advisable. For the American Roxor owner, it is a toy that cannot be used on the road. But for majority of Indian's the vehicle also doubles up as a regular use vehicle also.