[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Perfect answer to my doubts. Thanks.
Also like I said it can be a viable product for people who want to stay low key.

Lexus can be a success if :
- Localisation happens (leading to lower cost)
- Premium A.S.S.
- Better gearbox

Lexus will be a sure shot success either ways. Once selected customers start driving it, they'll just forget the German trio.

CVT gearbox is not really an issue and one will never feel any kind of rubber band effect or jerkiness. It's a very smooth gearbox in a Lexus, I do not know what they have done to make it better though.

Also note not everyone is dying for a DSG gearbox nor they want just all out performance. Many customers just want a luxurious ride and on that front Lexus delivers in spades.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Already mentioned by androdev why it works in USA. Can you not fixate on it again? Our market is not similar to US.

As per your logic only Benz would be selling even in US. You seem to dismiss it as a totally useless car compared to E-class, no ?

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Not a convincing justification for my question. This statement can be said for any car. Doesn't mean it's true. To be honest, you're the one who's biased towards Lexus. Apart from reliability, give me one good reason why it's better than the LWB E-Class?

What is the price of LWB E-class in India and how much does a 5 year service pack cost as well ?

So my justification is not valid but your word that E-class is the best car in the world holds water ?

[H_Dogg72]

Such a stupid debate
This car competes with the c class in other countries due to its price.
Here because of duties etc it's in the price range of the e class and thats why it's said that if just can't beat it.
Reliability is overrated, buddy.
If I'm spending 60L I will for sure keep a backup car because I know my German will conk off soon. And id rather deal with that once a year than drive a Boring, overpriced car for 365 days a year just to avoid that 1 week of downtime.

Open your mind. Nowhere was it said that the e class is the best car in the world or has the most sales in the USA. All was states is that lexus sells in USA due to cheaper price than Germans , premium service and reliability.
In the Indian market. The only card it has is reliability. Thats it. Same Toyota service. And OVER, not under priced vs the Germans.
Defending a CVT and 180/ kmhr limit on such an expensive car shows the fanboy-ism

[Jeroen]

I just happened to bump into this actual car at some exhibition my wife and I were visiting. They only had two cars, one of them this Lexus. So I had a good look.

At first glance I did not think much of it, just another Lexus. But as I spend some more time with it, the car sort of grew on me. One of my problems is that at 1.93m tall I often have problems fitting and just getting comfortable. The Lexus seemed very comfortable and accommodated me and my various back issues quite nicely. And still decent leg room behind me, which is unusual.

I did like the level of trim and detailing of the cabin. Pretty high class.

I havent driven it, so I can’t judge. But on appearances alone, I like it. More importantly, I think it stands out from the crowd. So it’s something very different than your usual Audi, BMW or Mercedes.

I don’t know what reputation Lexus enjoys in India. But in most of Europe, from a quality point of view, Lexus are considered to be amongst the very best. Easily outdoing the big Germans by a fair margin. They are not generally considered by people who call themselves “petrolhead”. As a brand, Lexus, just doesn’t have the standing as the German trio or say Jaguar. It’s the sort of luxury car, very well put together, for the non-petrol head.

Just for not being German and not being a petrol head car, it gets my vote!

Jeroen

[ritedhawan]

Toyota is synonymous with bullet proof reliability and peace of mind, and this is not specific to Indian context , the aforesaid mentioned fact is widespread across the world. Lexus being a Toyota derivative , one would expect the same level of reliability and peace of mind. Nevertheless, an "unreasonable price" is an attribute which is going to overshadow all the good the Lexus product has to offer.Its understandable that its the import duty at fault over here which inflated the price. Yet,its the intended buyer who would have to bear the "unreasonable" import duty + price of the product and that is incorrigible.

I guess there is no way around the unreasonable import duty, but that fact affects the manufacturers ability to sell a good product in high numbers just as its compels few buyers to own it.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Exactly my point. They have priced the car equal to E Class but is a product worth comparing to the C Class.

Aye.... changing your own tune? In your own words "it can't hold a candle to C-Class". I asked you to quantify and I still havent got my answer.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

So you're supporting the rip-off club.

Is Toyota putting a gun to the buyers head? Are there no other options in the market? This is a free market and the buyers decide the asking price. Toyota can price it at one crore and if the buyers still buy one, I would not blame Toyota. Speaking of rip offs, the german luxury cars are a rip off from, buying to servicing to eventually selling them off.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

So even after paying 65-70 lakhs, I should service my car next to an Etios?

What is the problem with that? I am sorry but this elitist egoist rant is killing me now and I would not indulge in it any longer.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

And am I paying that much for reliability only? What about the sense of occasion? The performance? And common, reliability is overrated. I have a Merc GLA and it doesn't breakdown every 1000 kms.

Have you ever even sat in a Lexus, never mind having owned one? Not only are their service levels the 'best' among luxury brands, their reliability and quality is too. How is reliability overrated when buyers are ready to pay handsome premium over other brands simply because of this peace of mind factor? You may say that it is unique to India, but it is the case here in Australia too. My mate has a Hilux ute which has done more than 500k kilomters and he is on the original engine and gearbox still. And this is a ute which is actually used for work, towing 2 tonnes, stuff in the back, running everyday all the time all from cities to country roads. Toyota's rule the Northern Territory, the most inhospitable terrain anywhere in the world and would not see even one european SUV there, not one. Hilux is still the best selling ute around Australia even though it is the least powerful and expensive for what it is compared to others costing almost the same. Infact couple of k's more over the asking price for Hilux you get a VW Amarok with a V6 diesel and people would still not buy it as a work ute. When it comes to hard working, hard wearing honest cars, there isnt a competition to Toyota.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

CVT transmission = Yawn. And you'll probably be yawning the whole period of your ownership.

This is the time where I explain that CVT is the best transmission to get the best out of an engine simple because there are no steps (or gears) because it is infinitely variable. So the engine can keep spinning at an rpm where it makes its maximum power and the CVT takes care of the gearing making sure it stays put at that rpm. I want to hear from you why you think CVT are a bad transmission?

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Let's consider this scenario: Wow, I bought a Lexus. It's very reliable. Today I feel like driving my car. Oh no, but my car has a CVT which is offered in a 8 lakh baleno as well. Might as well sit behind and relax in my car which never breaks down.

And my luxury car also has an internal combustion engine which runs on petrol which is basically the same engine as an Alto or worse a Hero Honda Splendor! Dang! Perhaps the luxury brands should also offer seperate roads to drive on so that you do not have to drive with pesky auto's, alto's and other ungodly cars that arent as expensive as yours.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Will be good if Lexus is successful. More the competition, the better. But they should've introduced something more exciting. Something more on the lines of a LFA. Would've cemented their brand value that they are not a luxury Toyota. They have the ability to make one of the greatest cars in the world. Right now they sell the most B-O-R-I-N-G cars in the world.

Speaking of VFM, LFA is one of the most expensive supercars and is the least powerful. Oops! By the way define boring?

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

If I pay a premium price, I expect something special.
If reliability was everything, every DSG car made by Volkswagen would've been a flop.

Toyota is the world's largest manufacturer of cars. Your point?

[The Brutailer]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Aye.... changing your own tune? In your own words "it can't hold a candle to C-Class". I asked you to quantify and I still havent got my answer.

No need of answering the question. Instead you tell me, how it's better than a E Class / 5 Series since they are priced similarly.

If you want to debate based on pricing only, then leave out the comparisons with C-Class and Camry.

Is Toyota putting a gun to the buyers head? Are there no other options in the market? This is a free market and the buyers decide the asking price.

And customers like you support the obnoxious pricing helping them inflate the price tag and make greater profits.

What is the problem with that? I am sorry but this elitist egoist rant is killing me now and I would not indulge in it any longer.

Have already answered but will answer to you specifically.

Let's say I'm a hotel owner. You come to my hotel. I charge you for a 5 Star room. And unfortunately I give you a 2 star room. What's wrong with that?

Have you ever even sat in a Lexus, never mind having owned one? Not only are their service levels the 'best' among luxury brands, their reliability and quality is too. How is reliability overrated when buyers are ready to pay handsome premium over other brands simply because of this peace of mind factor? You may say that it is unique to India, but it is the case here in Australia too. My mate has a Hilux ute which has done more than 500k kilomters and he is on the original engine and gearbox still. And this is a ute which is actually used for work, towing 2 tonnes, stuff in the back, running everyday all the time all from cities to country roads. Toyota's rule the Northern Territory, the most inhospitable terrain anywhere in the world and would not see even one european SUV there, not one. Hilux is still the best selling ute around Australia even though it is the least powerful and expensive for what it is compared to others costing almost the same. Infact couple of k's more over the asking price for Hilux you get a VW Amarok with a V6 diesel and people would still not buy it as a work ute. When it comes to hard working, hard wearing honest cars, there isnt a competition to Toyota.

Will not comment on what works in market outside India. Elitist companies like Maserati couldn't work well in India. Rumours of Chevrolet (big hit in USA) shutting down in India are going around. Fiat (Makers of Ferrari and Maserati) are a flop in India. Ford (again a big hit in USA) are getting into a JV to survive.

So this is my last argument over this. What works abroad will not necessarily work here. Nobody cares what works in Australia. Different countries, different requirements.

This is the time where I explain that CVT is the best transmission to get the best out of an engine simple because there are no steps (or gears) because it is infinitely variable. So the engine can keep spinning at an rpm where it makes its maximum power and the CVT takes care of the gearing making sure it stays put at that rpm. I want to hear from you why you think CVT are a bad transmission?

I'm a mechanical engineer so I'm pretty familiar with this transmission. It's tuned only for one thing : Efficiency.

And my luxury car also has an internal combustion engine which runs on petrol which is basically the same engine as an Alto or worse a Hero Honda Splendor! Dang! Perhaps the luxury brands should also offer seperate roads to drive on so that you do not have to drive with pesky auto's, alto's and other ungodly cars that arent as expensive as yours.

Absolutely absurd comparison. Have said this and will say it again. CVT is not acceptable on such an expensive car. If you're hell bent on defending a CVT equipped car with a 180 kmph limited top speed, my friend no argument can change your mind. Will ask you to stop your fanboyism towards Lexus and research more about the technologies which the E, 5 and A6 have.

Speaking of VFM, LFA is one of the most expensive supercars and is the least powerful. Oops! By the way define boring?

Which is why it was a big flop. But as said by Jeremey Clarkson, it's the best car he's ever driven.

Always remember one thing. More power never equals to more fun.

Toyota is the world's largest manufacturer of cars. Your point?

Maruti is the largest manufacturer in India. Does it means it makes the best cars here?

[Hayek]

I am really amazed that folks are slotting the ES300 h in the C Class segment. Just look at its dimensions - it is clearly a competitor for the E Class or 5 Series rather than the C.

Second, everyone is dismissive about the power train due to the hybrid combined with a CVT. Yes, it won't give you the sheer power that a 530d gives you. But for loads of folks who actually have ₹70 l to spend on a car, luxury, comfort, and refinement (which the Lexus has oodles of) matter a lot more than 0-100 speeds.

As some of you know, I have a X3 20d. And I am very happy to drive it in Ecopro mode during my routine office runs (the damped throttle response is fine in bumper to bumper traffic) and have used Sport for only about 100 odd km of the 2500 km I have done so far (try using sport while driving through Dharavi or in bumper to bumper BKC traffic if you don't get why). And I am someone who drives myself and likes driving - for lots of my friends, comfort matters a lot more, and the ES would deliver that well.

The only problem for Lexus is the E200 LWB - which delivers so much more rear seat comfort at a similar price. If this car had been launched 2 years ago, I think it would have been a hit. Against the new E, it faces a much harder task.

[CarguyNish]

When Mercedes Benz Launches E Class Hybrid, this equation will change & the comparison will vanish.

Until then Lexus should not be worried too much.

If Lexus had launched ES in Petrol & Diesel Guise at the current prices (55-60 lakhs), then it would have been a different story altogether with E-Class LWB being a superior product.

[gthang]

Being a witness during the origins of Lexus to the countless dismissals, and seen who had the last laugh, I sense a feel of deja Vu.

For those who need/want a Lexus, Rejoice!! Don't think that either the manufacturer nor the prospective customers care whether it is a "Success" or not.

Yes, it's a kind of arrogance. If it was OK for the Germans and some British marquees to have, why not Lexus? They earned it the hard way, without racial bias in their favor.

I aspire to own one.

Cheers

[H_Dogg72]

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[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by stanjohn123

Once a friend got in my car and we went for a drive, all he said was "Wow, A lexus really is a Lexus !.

Fan-boy or no fan boy, one can quote hundred reasons for rooting for a car. But Lexux is really Lexus? Doesn't that sound dumb? I have seen equally dumb Honda ad which says," a Honda is a Honda". Really? Unless words such as Honda/Lexus have some meaning, it really sounds stupid. If Skoda says its Superb is Superb then it's acceptable. The word Superb has some meaning.

[vishal9999]

I have driven Indian Lexus ES300H.The lexus has missed basic features like Rear reclining seat which even a camry has.Also front seat can`t be adjusted from rear.
I think there are just two choices in the segments which depends upon the preferences.
Mercedes E class LWB --For rear reclining seat and badge.
Toyoto Camry -- Peace of mind,rear reclining seat and refinement.

[The Brutailer]

Originally Posted by vishal9999

I have driven Indian Lexus ES300H.The lexus has missed basic features like Rear reclining seat which even a camry has.Also front seat can`t be adjusted from rear.
I think there are just two choices in the segments which depends upon the preferences.
Mercedes E class LWB --For rear reclining seat and badge.
Toyoto Camry -- Peace of mind,rear reclining seat and refinement.

They have underequipped it even in comparison to Camry? Hilarious.

Mercedes/BMW would be laughing all the way to the bank right now.

Could you tell us more? About the ride, NVH, transmission and overall comfort considering you've owned many luxo barges from the segment.

[GTO]

Mod Note: Some posts have been cleaned up. Please keep debates civil & respectful. Attack the issue, but not the person. We do NOT permit rude posts on Team-BHP.

[316kmph]

Originally Posted by Hayek

I am really amazed that folks are slotting the ES300 h in the C Class segment. Just look at its dimensions - it is clearly a competitor for the E Class or 5 Series rather than the C.

Second, everyone is dismissive about the power train due to the hybrid combined with a CVT. Yes, it won't give you the sheer power that a 530d gives you. But for loads of folks who actually have ₹70 l to spend on a car, luxury, comfort, and refinement (which the Lexus has oodles of) matter a lot more than 0-100 speeds.
.

Yes size wise they may be on par but the amount of engineering, choice of materials for mechanicals, drive train layout is vastly different.

Like how a LWB E class is about the same size of an Standard wheelbase 7 series but leagues apart.

Here is a link to a NzHerald article comparing the ES and the GS (Which is a 5 series competitor).
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/new...ectid=11248452