[Arjun Reddy]

Originally Posted by Carma2017

Hyundai is the role model everyone should follow. Quality cars, reasonable price, great features and segment specific policies. They have the pulse of Indian customers without stooping to as low a level as Maruti.

Hyundai was a VFM car maker in India a couple of years ago. I bought their Neo Elantra Fluidic for around 15 lakhs ex showroom. I haven't seen better value than that on any Indian car. All round disk brakes, 6 airbags, ABD, VSM, leather interior with cooled front seats , solar glass all around , full sized spare alloy and the list is endless.

Unfortunately with the launch of the Creta , new Elantra and the Tucson they seem to have lost the VFM edge. They are now commanding a stiff premium for their top spec variants and have begun to omit features. A 14 lakh top spec Creta doesn't get an auto dimming rear view mirror ? It was kind of assumed that Hyundai will provide these kind of features.
Tucson at 25 lakhs+ doesn't add to many features. It lost its cooled seats , sunroof and doesn't even provide a manual height adjust for the low positioned front passenger seat. Frustrati.

With the impending arrival of Kia , Hyundai is surely trying to position itself at the premium end of each segment and will let Kia fight it out at a lower price point.

[CarguyNish]

Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy

Hyundai was a VFM car maker in India a couple of years ago. I bought their Neo Elantra Fluidic for around 15 lakhs ex showroom. I haven't seen better value than that on any Indian car. All round disk brakes, 6 airbags, ABD, VSM, leather interior with cooled front seats , solar glass all around , full sized spare alloy and the list is endless.

While I do respect your Opinion that Hyundai's were VFM some years ago. But, this fact holds only true in terms of Features to Price Aspect.

But, cars aren't just about what features they have, they also are about how they drive, how they feel on road, how accomodating are they, how they pamper the occupants.

Just like your Elantra, my dad bought a VW Jetta for 15.20 lakhs. It was pricey at that time, but now after owning the car for nearly 6 years. The word VFM has its real meaning in this car.

Yes, it doesn't have Solar Glass but the glass are Tinted and have a kind of layer that blocks UV rays. No problems on that front. It doesn't have cooled seats but no problem, the Beige seats are very comfortable and don't heat up due to the glass preventing the heat buildup.

What the Jetta did really well was in terms of overall experience that owner expects. It is terrific to drive, others aren't bad but they don't come close to this.
It ride quality is simply excellent and handling is too good with very good grip levels & better steering feedback compared to immediate competition. Add to that, the comfortable seats all around, the Jetta did everything right over rivals.

Now coming to the debated part, After sales. One will agree that VW service isn't good, but hey this car was serviced at various Centers across Bangalore. None of them disappointed us. In fact the service was as expected. No problems on that front, at least to us.

This is what VFM should be like, and the Jetta is a perfect example. How I wish such kind of cars exist in India. Frankly speaking, such kind of cars come only in limited numbers while rest are called VFM only if they are priced well & Equipped well.

Originally Posted by Carma2017

Hyundai is the role model everyone should follow. Quality cars, reasonable price, great features and segment specific policies. They have the pulse of Indian customers without stooping to as low a level as Maruti.

Hyundai makes Quality cars, yes no doubt. But that's it. Other things you have mentioned don't apply to latest Hyundai's. They are priced at a premium, features have been cut down. And the other aspects, well it's a known fact.

The reason why people buy Hyundai's are just because they don't want Maruti, If you don't believe this, just ask someone looking/buying a Grand i10 to consider Tata Tiago. His reaction will be Tata ? Arey, Hyundai Tata se behatar he na. Iska features, interiors aur service bi accha he !! Toh fir Tiago kyun kharidna ?

Yes, I know that no one will care about other handling, high speed stability etc on these small cars. But when the Tiago is as good & better then Grand i10 in some aspects (Efficiency/Ride), people tend to overlook other cars just because Cars are from Maruti & Hyundai for them.

Majority of sales from Hyundai is from Grand i10, Elite i20 & Creta. These cars sell well in Metro's, but other cars are simply not up to the mark when compared to competition. And some cars do require them to be special in a particular aspect. Some drive car just from Point A to B, while some want something out of their car since it's an investment.

Hyundai's are all about Features & Good after sales (Telling this since we have 2 Hyundai's currently), while Maruti is all about Efficiency & Good Pricing. Rest of the other things ? Na they aren't upto the mark. Maruti & Hyundai - Partial VFM ? Yes, Complete VFM ? A Big NO.

[octane_100]

Tata can take a sigh of relief, albeit momentarily. Even though the trio of Hexa, Tiago and Tigor have not set the sales charts on fire, they surely point at consumer confidence slowly returning to Tata brand. They should go all out with Nexon, sine the platform(for success) is very much there.

[dark.knight]

Without referring to any member in particular, lest it be perceived as a personal disagreement, I have a few things to add. Each brand has played its role in India, and none less important or more important than the other. They are in a nutshell :

- Morris Minor/Ambassador > the earliest transporters of India, large, bulbous and sturdy they gave people the opportunity to travel as a family and experience the wonders of automobility. A great

- Fiat Premier/NE > also a part of the early personal/private transport system in India, spacious and reliable (for that time), I respect what they have done for the nation, though they were well on their way out by the time I was old enough to understand cars. We did own one (2nd hand) and it was a very comfortable ride as much as I can remember.

- Maruti/Suzuki > They changed the landscape of travel in India by bringing in an organized sales and service network and also by bringing in compact, affordable and reliable automobiles. Because of their higher sales they could do what Fiat never could, increase support network and improve resale, and both fed off each other to boost new sales. Maruti 800 was the go-to car for the middle class family and we had that too after the Fiat.

- Hyundai > India's previous experience with a Korean product was Daewoo, and though they had extremely competent, contemporary products i.e the first automatic car in India Cielo and a very modern hatchback Matiz, they both couldn't sustain because they didn't invest in support and sales. Hyundai changed that, they pumped in close to 3000 crores for their initial production, sales and support network way back in 1998, backed it up with very contemporary, spacious and reliable products like the Santro & Accent to begin with and took it further with the Tucson and Terracan, small failures and losses didn't deter them one bit as they quickly brought in the Getz, India's first superhatch (space+power+utility) and then broke all records with the i20 (the beginning of their "features" era) which came with ABS, 6 Airbags, spacious interiors, sunroof, steering mounted controls, automatic climate control etc for 7.xx lacs, cars that costed twice as much didn't come with such a combination of features.

- Skoda/VW > These were India's first locally sold German-owned carmakers (I guess Opel was american owned?) and they changed the landscape as well with good products (though they were overpriced to begin with). In time they also have settled into the country and are giving more for the money today in a bid to improve sales.

- Ford > Though its easy to forget them largely due to low sales, they did bring in the Escort, Ikon and Fiesta, 3 cars that were much loved but then the company could never get it together in terms of support until now.

These were the companies that came from outside the country, to change the way India moved, the earliest form of connecting people so to speak. Toyota & Honda brought variety and good cars to the scene, but did they change the landscape? I'm not too sure. Also due credit for the local brands TATA and Mahindra for playing a role with their MUV's, large family cars and also goods transport vehicles in the 90's. They were a vital cog as well.

Every person defines a car differently, though I'm a member here and being that I love to drive, my definition is quite different. Since the day I learnt to drive my thinking was always about having an all-in-one car, a small car that is capable of tackling local traffic, is spacious inside, reliable on the road and is easy on the pocket for maintenance. Both the Santro Xing (sold) and Getz provided exactly that, the Santro had a great steering (hydraulic) and the Getz is a hoot to drive, never once did it not go where I wanted it to go and it is one sturdy car (a Civic rear-ended it and its bumper fell, the Getz - few scratches).

To me cars are this wonderfully reliable, abuse-friendly transport machines which have helped me travel together with, or transport my family, relatives and friends. Memories of sharing love, laughter and soul-searching, it all happened in some part, within the car. I'm not that kind of guy who may go to get the car treated to an expensive wash every month, or someone who mods the exteriors or plays around with the engine tune, however I've always tried to keep them clean and well-serviced, changing everything that has to be changed, just so that they never give up on me.

In conclusion I think each brand is special to a different person, it may be because of his/her experience with the brand, or just because they love the way it looks. Sales isn't a reflection of quality and vice versa, a quality that is multi-dimensional and subjective to begin with. Anytime a relative/friend asks me what car to buy I simply tell them to do 3 things - a) set a budget b) buy the car that you love, visually, that is within the budget and c) earmark a maximum 3% of the total cost of the car per annum as maximum maintenance charges (eg. a 10.L rupee car will cost approx 1.5 lakh overall in maintenance over 5 years including washing, tratments, insurance etc, that is the maximum and anything less is instant savings).

In my view, there is no clearly better brand in light passenger vehicles, else worldwide there'd be only one brand that sells 10 times more than the second best, instead we have 5 brands GM/Toyota/VW/Hyundai/Nissan that aren't very far apart from each other (GM and VW have the truck sales and multiple brand sales advantage). Each person's decision is best for them in the end.

[arnabchak]

Some pointers:

1) Swift rises like a Phoenix!!
When we are all anticipating the launch of the new Swift, the old war horse does a U turn and commits some fantastic nos.

There is no touching Maruti. From one blockbuster to another, its a 70% MARKET SHARE FOR THEM IN THE TOP 10.

2) Ciaz figures are proof that Nexa shift has been a successful one. Obviously, the nos. may come down as the 7K will be a mix of existing MSIL showroom dispatches and discounts on offer before the shift to NEXA doled out to the Ciaz.

The C2 segment is now just a two car segment. Verna/Rapid/Vento/Linea are all fringe players. The new Verna also wont change the apple cart. Its has and will be a battle of the Cs(City vs Ciaz).

3) The compact SUVs has eaten into the Sedan pie significantly. Brezza and Creta(though different segments) have kept the segment on fire. All others come a distant third, Eco Sport included.

4) Honda and M&M needs to do a thorough soul searching. TUV/KUV isnt bringing glory. Their warhorse Bolero is now languishing in the rural land scapes and Scorpio is selling well bt not enough to sustain the company. XUV is an aberration.
Ditto with Honda. Other than the City, nothing sells the way it should. Its a series of duds-Brio/Amaze(low nos. and new Dzire will annihilate even further)/WRV(Ok. Its just the start. Wait till nos. settles)/BRv(Dud)/Mobilio(Colossal Dud)/Jazz(Dud).
They cant be too greedy. City is a clear example of this. Churn out good products and things will fall into place. Brand name still counts big time.

[Dhruba_Nazira]

I believe that the market will change significantly once the Chinese players enter. The Chinese will give tough competition to the Japanese and the Koreans. Although people don't trust Chinese brands as of now, it will not take much time for the perceptions to change. The Chinese smart phone brands (for example xiaomi, Huawei, HTC etc.) have already won hearts in India.

The top twenty brands in the world's largest automobile market in 2016 -- http://carsalesbase.com/china-car-sales-analysis-2016/

[varunswnt]

I am not against any particular brand or the customers preference to brand, my opinion was only regarding the escrewed or bias towards particular brand in such a way that we might experience the best of motoring in delayed manner.

When India is really competing at global level to be in top economies and other fields then why are we termed as market difficult to crack by global players. Are we supposed to get the best of developed car markets only in higher segments and not lower segments? I understand some car makers went a little greedy with their offerings in skipping features w.r.t price, but even after correcting themselves to some extent with updates are they still supposed to be overlooked during purchase. After sales might not be par with best but then how often do you need it after getting car, a little smooth talking and following checklist/PDI might solve this to some extent? Service is tricky part but things are almost at par with most of them, its us who need to be a little vigilant with our prized possession during servicing, even the best in market does some malpratices if not looked into properly.

If costlier fuel is turning market into "KITNA DETI HAI" then turning to diesel is not the solution, right? Market leader should be looking at hybrid and EVs with petrol as well, then we can say that they are really doing something.

If we consider average salary of middle class in range of 7-10 lakhs before taxes, then they spend a cool 4-6 lacs on car purchase i.e. good 30-40%, isn't that too much, still we go and buy car as its aspirational thing. You can see so many of them driving to offices all alone in car trying to extract last drop of fuel but seldom do they consider car pooling or available public transport. This is going off topic and lets not go there.

Coming back, just to take an example, what's wrong with Xcent compared to Dzire, still it sells 1/3rd of Dzire, same is the case with Amaze, weren't they VFM and feature loaded? Another example of Ecosport, first to tap small crossiver market, agreed they did blunder with sales and hurt many, but still they are selling only 1/2 of Brezza. Is it not VFM with features, is it not good looking, how much less spacious is it compared to Brezza. Ecosport has got 3 engine options, 2 gearbox options and still distant 2nd, Brezza has just one engine option and mid variants are not even VFM for price and features it provides. Innovas and Fortuners are owned by those who already own 2 cars in their garage, so their is no point in talking about them, these are VFM to them comapred to luxury Germans.

If the difference between the 1st and 2nd is so huge, then how is it suppoed to instill confidence in other players to play to their potential. After all competitors are capitalist and then will do best to extract profit from offerings, so they will be forced to match our tastes and come with India specific product and not a global product. Ford and Hyundai cutting down on features is one such thing. Now this is not good for us is what I meant, things might change in coming years but how long will it take, looking at current market scenario we can't predict.

We need to talk on this aspect more. Why do you think we are missing GTO/Moderators notes on analysis thread the way we had 2-3 years back, because nothing different is happening, its going Roger Federer way.

Again just my opinion.

[Carma2017]

@varunswnt : Let's get one fact straight. Dzire isn't a great car. It sold initially because it resembled a Swift ( a super duper hit car) and for the first time gave the customer a cheap Sedan option which handled decently. Tata eCS was a good concept let down let down by poor finishing.
Any other car that followed had to out do the Dzire. Bottom line is that neither Xcent nor Amaze out did Dzire. A greater luggage space, a few extra features were not a game changer. Neither had the best of looks and weren't cheap either. The Xcent had a decent chance as the build quality was excellent but the 4m Dzire handling and ride outdid the Hyundai offering. The poor NVH of Amaze was it's biggest downside. Most importantly, the interior was very poor and did not seem like a Honda.
Now, the EcoSport was a top notch car but Ford fleeced the customer too much out of greed. The waiting period was massive. Additionally, Ford, in their greed for profits, pushed customers towards highest end variants and quoted huge waiting times for affordable VFM variants. They could do so because they had an Export Market to rely on and there wasn't any competition either. Brezza entered with a low cost, high FE, dual tone and catchy exterior and EcoSport had nowhere to run to. The price cut was the final nail in the coffin which alienated existing customers. Also, Ford ignored the Figo and further turned off customers.
Indians will still welcome any car maker which can give good value for the segment and shows a commitment to the market. Operators like VW, Fiat who have no will to put products exclusively for Indian market will get cleaned off in long run, no matter how large a giant they are globally. Or the Giants can buy off makers like Suzuki, Tata or Hyundai.

[volkman10]

Originally Posted by Dhruba_Nazira

The top twenty brands in the world's largest automobile market in 2016

See how 2017 is shaping up in global sales,



Link

[Equus]

I often wonder how do dealerships for Nissan/VW/etc make money, when the Manufacturer is focusing lot more on exports?
How about premium cars dealerships -- Audi/BMW/Benz etc? Would they make more than 10 Lakhs on a sale of a 3 series? How many beemer's are sold in each city to make significant profits? Not to mention, comlimentary service packages for 3-4 yrs!!

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by varunswnt

...my opinion was only regarding the escrewed or bias towards particular brand in such a way that we might experience the best of motoring in delayed manner.

...
I understand some car makers went a little greedy with their offerings in skipping features w.r.t price, but even after correcting themselves to some extent with updates are they still supposed to be overlooked during purchase.
...

If the difference between the 1st and 2nd is so huge, then how is it suppoed to instill confidence in other players to play to their potential. After all competitors are capitalist and then will do best to extract profit from offerings, so they will be forced to match our tastes and come with India specific product and not a global product.

...

We need to talk on this aspect more. Why do you think we are missing GTO/Moderators notes on analysis thread the way we had 2-3 years back, because nothing different is happening, its going Roger Federer way.

So you are again and again saying that we the customers are the ones to be blamed, for your favourite 'global' brands not able to sell their cars.

Are we slaves of these brands to buy their offerings, to give them 'confidence' of bringing more models? Is anyone insisting you by law and order that you have to buy a Maruti? It's the confidence Maruti built in the minds of people using their fuel efficient, reliable and 'serviceable' cars. This confidence draws millions to them every year, and none pushes them to do so.

We the customers are not here to give confidence to the manufacturers. We are here not to reduce the difference between 1st and 2nd. We are here not to change the monotonous-looking monthly sales figures. We are here - and PAY - to get what we like and suit us. If someone offers it in a BETTER WAY than others, we buy. Others? Just keep on pointing their fingers to the 'mind' of the customers.

Maruti is also not without failures. Astar, estilo, versa... But see how they transformed Versa to Eeco. Instead of brands selling what they want to sell, let them sell what the people want.

[Dhruba_Nazira]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

So you are again and again saying that we the customers are the ones to be blamed, for your favourite 'global' brands not able to sell their cars.

By the way, Maruti (Suzuki) is also a global brand. The have entered the list of top 10 car manufacturers in the 1st quarter 2017. And they are one of the fastest growing brands with a worldwide presence. So I don't see any point in differentiating Maruti with other global brands.

[OrangeCar]

The saga of Bahubali -

Once upon a time, in the kingdom of Mahishmati, there was a king called Bahubali. Amredara Bahbuali, aka Maruti Baleno. He was so strong that he did 17K in one single month. That led to him being elevated to the King of the kingdom.

However, Bijjaladeva aka Tata Aria was not happy with Maruti being the king. He came up with Bhalla Deva, aka Tata Hexa. Unfortunately, he had all the muscle but a few squeaks to them. Also, he acted very pricey and was not easy for commoners to service. This led to him being a 1K/month king.

This made, the young and dashing Mahendra Bahubali aka Toyota Innova to capture and continue to be the king of Mahismati. At 6.5K/month, he is not perfect and is not as smart as Amrendara Bahubali. It needs to prove it can succeed outside Mahishmati. Meaning, Toyota, do something outside UVs.

With Mahendra Bahubali (Innova) and Balla Deva (Tata Hexa) figting, the graceful, but older & flawed Sivagami aka XUV500 is happily resting at 2k/month.

Amongst all of this, Devasena aka Maruti Vitara Breeza is happily and gracefully dancing away in a smaller kingdom aka smaller SUVs.

Avanthika, aka Ford EcoSport had a fantastic run in the first part of the movie. Seems to have lost in the choas in the second part of the movie, with 3.5K/month. All blame Devasena aka Maruti Vitara Breeza.

[SchumiFan]

Suzuki is the brand not Maruti. Maruti has customized cars (Dzire, Brezza) for India which are selling at 10K+ every month. Don't think worldwide they are buying the Maruti brand. I don't think Suzuki even has the diesel for Baleno in the UK like they do in India.

Suzuki is out of the biggest market in the world (USA). They depend on India, Japan and Europe for their bread. 127K out of the 280 came from India.

[DImPo]

Looks like it is Overbilling syndrome (Financial year Turnover targets) in March. Almost all car manufacturers except Maruti have shown lower sales in April 2017 than in March 2017 though Hyundai and Nissan have almost matched the previous numbers.

Honda's three cars are listed in Top ten losers- BRV, Amaze and Jazz. Sales of WRV and City seems to be losing steam.

Toyota moves up one place overtaking Tata Motors. Toyota- Where is that Vios and Yaris?