[vjkamal]

Originally Posted by BigBrad

There's a base variant 4th gen Honda City in our extended family which was bought around mid-2014. It has a single reverse light. The space for the bulb in LHS tail lamp is sealed. Honda decided to save 5p on a reverse light bulb for base variant customers.

Unfortunately, the regulation demands only a single reversing light and manufacturers take an advantage of it. It is not a big thing to miss out, but a perfectionist is disappointed at the end of the day. At least, I am glad that the market leader, even though being a Jap doesn't follow this strategy even with their entry level offerings. Cheer up mate, you've got a lot of company

[androdev]

Honda wants to be the Maruti of 2000s as it thinks it's the best way to get such enviable market share.

Maruti wants to be the Honda of 2000s as it thinks it's the best way to get respect.

Hyundai wants to be European.

Toyota wants to be Toyota but with ridiculous margins.

VW is stuck in being VW.

[naveen.raju]

Not just Honda, this is happening across all major manufacturers like deetjohn had mentioned. This is from our grand i10 and there's only partial cladding in both front and rear wheel well. And this is the variant just below the top end Asta.

[kutoos]

Originally Posted by arunramaswamy

Why is this cost cutting happening only for India made cars? I don't see any such cost cutting happening in cars sold here in Australia. I think even Thailand market gets decently specced safe cars. It is not that we are getting Honda cars for cheap money. We do pay a premium for whatever is being sold by HCIL. Why this double standards Honda?

Simply put:

1. No Lemon Laws in India. Has any Car Maker been taken to task? What rights does the discerning customer have ?

2. Bhasmasura Effect: Honda India was doling out good quality Cars till about 2005-2007. This was the period when Hyundai's wowed us with gimmics, and a loaded/feature rich car was always better than a sedate no frills car with top notch quality.

The above two has culminated in this sorry state of affairs. Justice needs to be swift, and unfortunately, here in India, you will probaly grow with your case and even die before justice is meted.

QED
Cheers Mate

[AkMar]

First of all, thanks for your responses. Honestly I did not expect this amount of responses!

Originally Posted by deetjohn

This is not really a surprise!

If it helps, the rear wheel wells are completely naked in both Crysta and new Fortuner. Also, the front wheel wells have partial cladding only. And that is consistent across variants for Toyota, even the fully loaded variants don't get it. Atleast Honda did this only for the base variant.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Is Deetjohn's post above invisible to all who are just singling out Honda. Even top variants of Fortuner at 40 lakhs and Crysta at 30 lakhs come without it. Shouldn't we also comment on this? Or, have we given Toyota a license to do whatever they please? Honda at least is not providing it on base variant.

Naked wheel wells have become quite common these days, sadly. Slowly I have managed to come to terms with that, though grudgingly. However, not providing cladding is unacceptable in Crysta & Fortuner. We are free to comment on it as well

However, here I am referring to this specific part of cladding behind rear wheels (not complete wheel well cladding) which prevents mud from splashing into the inside of bumper. You can say it is a sort of extension of mud flap inside the wheel well, while mud flap is outside the wheel well. Complete wheel well cladding is absent even in VX variant. Skipping this in Altos or Nanos is still acceptable, but it is totally unacceptable in a 9 lakh rupees car in a premium segment from a manufacturer who positions themselves as premium (remember the 2017 Honda City promos, trying to project City in a class higher than its competitors?).

The moot point is, skipping something in all variants is one thing, and skipping essentials like this cladding selectively in lower variant is a different thing. When I buy a lower variant we expect only features to be lesser than higher variants. Apart from missing features, I expect the car to be mechanically identical to higher variant, at least at this price point. Who knows what else has been skimped upon in the base variant under guise of cost cutting?

As for the Crysta, I spotted one of them on the road today. Even though the wheel wells are naked, thankfully at least it has this cladding behind rear tyre.

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

Skipping on features is one thing, and then skipping the essentials altogether is another level of cheapness. Going by that logic, they should launch a barebones version of all their cars, like Premier did with their Driveaway chassis versions. Honda has been notorious for this habit, and we have seen missing NVH shield and air intake ducts in lower variants of Hondas.

You said it!

Originally Posted by naveen.raju

Not just Honda, this is happening across all major manufacturers like deetjohn had mentioned. This is from our grand i10 and there's only partial cladding in both front and rear wheel well. And this is the variant just below the top end Asta.

See, the Grand i10 also has cladding behind rear wheel Our Xcent has it too. However premium Honda doesn't have it.

Originally Posted by manishkapadia

@Akmar

Even my wifes Honda Brio does not have the Air Intake duct. Its present on top end variants only. They skimped even on the part that helps the engine run more efficiently. I just ordered it on my first service with Honda and the part was also very cheap.

If the part is cheap, then it should be there in the car in the first place! That shows the pathetic attitude of modern day Honda.

Originally Posted by manishkapadia

You can ask or rather insist that honda sell the Wheel clading part to you and get it fixed in your Dads car. Dont let it affect your joy and ownership experience.

Of course, it won't affect the ownership experience as such. However as I said above, it shows the attitude of Honda towards the market. When a customer is paying almost Rs 9 lakhs, why skimp on a part which is present in higher variant & costs only a few hundred rupees? It has definitely left a sour taste in the mouth.

[Chetan_Rao]

Honda want to reposition themselves as the semi-premium brand they originally were, filling the gap between the entry level Maruti Suzuki/Hyundai and the premium Germans on the other.

They forgot they needed to move more than the just the price tags.

Their build now (third world products) is no better than mass-market Maruti, worse than Hyundai and nowhere near the Euro league. Maruti dominates due to its service presence and goodwill, Hyundai on quality and mostly VFM. Honda don't have the service presence, and are fast shedding both quality and goodwill. If FIAT and VAG hadn't shot themselves in the foot on A.S.S. and product launches, Honda of today wouldn't have a market right now.

I literally laughed when the new City was positioned as a grade above the competition. Some strong stuff being smoked at Honda.

[arunramaswamy]

Well it still sells 6000+ copies on a month-on-month basis, while a competitive product like Hexa struggles. I simply do not understand the mass market logic or their mindset. Case in point WR-V. I do not know what it offers over Jazz other than raised GC and a sunroof. But still sells healthy numbers. Honda surely knows something that I do not. Interesting really.

[ashishk29]

Honda is certainly doing a lot of cost cutting in India. This cost cutting goes down to several levels. For example petrol variants of Jazz don't get seatbelt pretensioners, whereas Diesel variants do. Diesel WR-V gets start-stop button, petrol variants don't.
This goes on with the exclusion of DRLs on the Jazz.
What really feels bad is you can actually see the missing bits

[GTO]

Never imagined this kind of a difference between variants. It's one thing to skip a touchscreen audio system, but entirely another to remove a crucial NVH component or air intake duct (as pointed out by Akmar). What else is missing from lower variants that we don't know about?

Honda is forgetting that top-notch quality built their reputation in the first place. The 1st-generation City (engines, reliability), 2nd-generation City (quality, practicality) and 3rd-generation (all-roundedness) were a cut above the competition. They offered something that the competition didn't, and certainly didn't have this kind of blatant cost-cutting. I don't think even Maruti cheapens base variants like this.

Penny wise, pound foolish. Short-term thinking, not long-term. Sucks to see Honda going down this road.

Originally Posted by feluda86

The market is ripe for another disruptive move by the market leaders to improve quality of cars in India

I think Maruti & Hyundai have done a commendable job of improving their products (overall) in the last 5 years. They're launching cars like crazy, while at the same time making strides in quality, safety kit, equipment levels etc.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

buy a VW, and you could throw 2/3rds of the manual away because "this feature may not be available on your model" and it wasn't.

Originally Posted by androdev

Honda wants to be the Maruti of 2000s

Great post! Thanks.

Originally Posted by arunramaswamy

Case in point WR-V. I do not know what it offers over Jazz other than raised GC and a sunroof.

What does a Creta offer over a Verna? Or the Vitara Brezza over a Baleno? We can apply the GC statement to a lot of crossovers. Fact is, style + ground clearance + taller driving position are a big draw for consumers.

[Santoshbhat]

This is sheer nonsense from a manufacturer like Honda. I think its time for the Govt. to enact a law which makes it mandatory for every manufacturer to list out each and every difference between the variants to enable the buyer to make an informed decision and not get taken for ride. Secret omissions is just not done.

[govindremesh]

I was thinking of opening a new thread, but this thread has prompted me to write it here.

I think we've gone into Honda bashing mode in the community here. Nowadays, we have a problem with almost everything Honda does: Thinner tires, Low quality, lack of features on specific variants, overpricing etc.

I'll try to address these one by one with my reasoning, and I'm open to different opinions as well

1. Thinner tires

I am tired of reading the word "under tired" on Honda car reviews. Let's not forget that they are building mass market cars and not cars for race track. Fuel efficiency is what the majority of Indians look for in a car and it's basic physics that decreasing rolling resistance increases fuel efficiency. As for safety, I accidentally put my City in an steeply curved NICE road exit at triple digit speeds and the tires squealed. However, I was able to control the car despite my foolishness and had the car been under tired, I would not be writing this post today.


2. Quality & features

Agreed, some of the Bhpians had a problem with their cars, But initial niggles do exist in any production process. Didn't we read of a brand new Innova Crysta with leaking roof here in this community? Does that make Toyota the worst company in quality control?

In the 1.5 years and 15000+ kilometers on my 4th gen City, I've never heard a single squeak or rattle from the car despite taking it over some pretty rough roads during its drives.

When Honda did give less features with higher quality, everyone cried that Honda was stingy on features. Now that they have given more features at an acceptable quality, everybody cries about drop in quality. Remember, its always a trade-off. If they offer both quality and features, it will drive up the price and then we will complain about higher price.


3. Overpricing

If you see absolute numbers, the V variant of the City has maintained a steady price level between gen 3 & 4. I remember that the on road price of the 3rd Generation City V-MT costed around 9.8 lakhs in 2011 (on road, Navi Mumbai). We paid 10.6 lakhs for the 4th gen City V-MT in 2015 (on road, Kochi).

Factor in the inflation and the features added and I don't think Honda is robbing us in daylight.

As for WR-V, Look closely at the competition, everyone has cut the claddings and god knows what from their cars. Toyota is charging 20 big ones for their Innova. Hyundai's i20, Creta and Tucson are overpriced. Maruti's Brezza is priced higher for what it offers. Basically, the compact SUV segment is a milking ground, so why would Honda not want to enjoy it's own share of margins?

If there is a market that is willing to pay for it, why price it lower? It's business at the end of the day and not community service.


Conclusion

I'm not saying that Honda makes the best cars in the market, but the kind of bashing that the company is receiving in this community is, in my opinion, unjustified and exaggerated. Before taking our guns, we must remember that its a company that has moved to mass market cars, and I believe that since they always alternate between #3 and #4 on the monthly sales chart, they have achieved what they wanted. It's no longer the Honda that enthusiasts want, but its a brand that has reached many people for whom it was off limits a few years ago.

PS: I'm ready to for getting shot with machine guns now

[Waspune]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

This is not really a surprise!

If it helps, the rear wheel wells are completely naked in both Crysta and new Fortuner. Also, the front wheel wells have partial cladding only. And that is consistent across variants for Toyota, even the fully loaded variants don't get it. Atleast Honda did this only for the base variant.

Looks quite bad on the new Toyotas with its humongous GC especially for the light coloured cars, let alone the impact on NVH.

Toyota is another cost cutting king. Manufacturers like Toyota and Honda bet on their after sales and service and cut corners in their products to compensate for it

Hyundai provides better quality coupled with good service reach and Maruti is priced sensibly (for most part) for what it offers along with great after sales network.

Europeans perhaps come up with the best products which often involves heart over mind kind of buying behaviour but falter in after sales.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Maybe Honda are trying to rediscover their roots. Whereas the Civic and the Accord became quite classy cars, the original civic was very basic. I think the one I drove was 1st generation, made in 1974: when I had it, it was 13 years old. It was a good little car, with a pokey engine (although the torque-converter auto soaked up a lot of the poke) but finish, fixtures and fittings... very basic. Almost reminiscent of the Mini. Well, OK, the heater was not an optional extra.

[landcruiser123]

Hey AkMar,
It's only us petrolheads who have keen observation abilities to notice these things in our car.
As some members suggested, just order the part and get it fixed if it is affecting your peace of mind.

I think competition has made even the best car makers use sub-standard manufacturing processes, compromise on build quality and these little things. Honda and Toyota have had niggles with their best products- the City and the Innova respectively. So clearly, something is wrong and the original quality isn't being maintained anymore.

Hyundai and VAG cars are built really well.

Honda sure doesn't seem to be learning from the failures of the cars built on the Brio platform.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Missing rear cladding from the whole model range is excusable compared to this case.
You'll mostly drive the top-most variant in the TD. If you buy any of the lower variants and find that it's making more noise in the same driving conditions(as your TD), you'd be disappointed.

Originally Posted by deetjohn

If it helps, the rear wheel wells are completely naked in both Crysta and new Fortuner.

That'll console him.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by govindremesh

I'm not saying that Honda makes the best cars in the market, but the kind of bashing that the company is receiving in this community is, in my opinion, unjustified and exaggerated.

If we replace the name Honda with Tata or Fiat or VW or Skoda or Maruti or Hyundai or <insert manufacturer name here> your post would still be valid.
Honda for the topics you mentioned, Tata for resale value, Fiat for not launching new models, Maruti for launching too many and some others everything under the sun. With the kind of critical eye that we run over each and every aspect, it is only fair that we cover and discuss these aspects. Considering the repeat value from some manufacturers, it becomes a stereotype which they find it difficult to break.

There is no such thing as the best car anyway. People have their own requirements and finally choose what suits them the most. In another parallel universe, people choose the car with those flaws that they can live with or ignore completely.