[rahul_intlad]

Toyota not doing anything hmm..

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...va+black+smoke

[indian21r]

we have owned an indigo 2004 model for the last 2 years. It has done 80,000km on the odo. We never had a break down. had some minor problems but for the use it was put to they are negligible. It is not a great product, but it is not bad either. for the price it is absolute value for money.

I can't the same with my octavia 2002 model . it ditched me 3 times in the middle of the road. Actually Iwas surprised the reliability of it considering that it had done the same distance o 80,000kms .

I have seen a lot of indica's that stalled and all of them were Taxi's that have done a lot on the odo. How many other car's in the same segment are used as taxi's. Hardly any? And the way these driver's drive them is horrible. Put other cars under such stress I am sure u would see them also stalling.

will have to see how the market shapes up after the other diesels are out

[hell_rider]

Originally Posted by iraghava

Ok Salil let me be honest here, all those who know me know that I have been a huge critic of TATA car's over the years despite the so-called improvements to them. Here's my assessment & reasoning for not buying a TATA product:

1. Does it have a good engine? NO
2. Does it have a good gearbox? NO
3. Are the NVH levels acceptable? NO
4. Is it a pleasure to drive? NO
5. Is it a quality product? NO
6. Does it have good interiors? NO
7. Is it a great handler? NO
8. Is it a reliable product? NO

Now why should I buy the Indica/Indigo? Simply because they are diesel-powered (horribly raucous engines for someone used to petrol) or because they are cheap?

I simply could not justify buying any of the products from the TATA stable with my heard-earned money. And I agree completely with Boom Shiva regarding this. Patriotism is alright but remember TATA is out to make a profit in the market & by selling these cars they aren't doing you a favour for being an Indian. And you shouldn't reciprocate that too.

I will buy an Indian car when it's worth it with good enough abilities to rule the market segment, before that I'll stick to whatever is a better product. Till then I'll say that TATA/Mahindra products are below acceptable standards & not worth spending your hard-earned cash on. Simply because they are cheap & diesel powered does not make them a good product.

And as far improvements to Indica/Indigo/Safari are concerned it's a "Andhon mein Kaana Raja situation", since you know the bugger who bought the car before you is in a worse position than you so you make yourself happy by convincing yourself that atleast better off than the chap who bought the last generation!!

Its going to take a lot more than answering self-raised questions and providing one word negative capitalized replies to prove that point.

By your own admittance, you are already used to petrols and not even considering diesels. So by what rationale have you passed the above verdict on Tata cars ?

I have a Indica Turbo DLX.

I have to reply YES to every question you have raised above. Its just back from the second service, which cost me Rs.1880. Additionally, its not given me any niggling problems or spent any unwanted time at the service station in a year.

I made a trip to Baroda, where its given me an average of 20 kmpl with AC on all the time with a steady speed of 90-100. I spent just about 1800 on fuel. It consumes a tad over half tank point-to-point from my house in Mumbai to my cousin's place in Baroda.

Go find me one of your refined imported petrol cars which does that. Then we'll talk.

The only reason your foreign maufacturers are coming in with better diesel CRDi engines is because TATA is pushing the envelope with their diesels and showing how cost effective it is. If not for TATA, people would still be buying the Ford 1.8 Diesel which had two cows inside the engine compartment as powerplants.

TATA cars have gone through more cabin and body revisions in a year than Maruti cars have undergone in a decade. and thats not pulled out of a hat. Check Indica / Indigo models and Maruti models in a similar timeframe. And everytime TATA refines the cabin, or introduces beige interiors as standrd, they do not launch it as NEW and IMPROVED.

Sure Boom Shiva had problems with his Indigo. But then so did GTO with his Mercedes, which was on a sticky for ages on this forum. So by that token are we to assume that Mercedes automobiles suck ? Surely not, right ??

There is a niche market for pleasure drivers, who drive their cars as a matter of course because they seek pleasure, pride of possession and status.

But there is a much bigger market out there for people who need to use their cars:
1. as a tool to get from Point A to Point B
2. to earn their bread and butter
3. to provide four-wheel transportation for their families.

TATA provides that.

Who would you rather prefer ?
Maruti who sells a 20 yr old design, by saying Esteem means "pride" ? Crap.
Or the Swift, whose excellent rear seat design was designed by MUL engineers, but, oh wait...Maruti is too cheap to incorporate THAT into the Indian version. All we get is a bench for a rear seat. And of course, the "upgraded" Esteem engine, while the rest of the world gets Suzuki's new 1.5.
Or again, to highlight Maruti's cheapness by not including rear demisters in their flagship Baleno costing close to 7 lakhs, but reserving it for the high end Baleno Vxi, a feature that TATA can provide in car that costs less than 5 lakhs.
Not to mention the abominations that were the Zen and the Esteem diesels.

Or Ford who have Indianised their cars so well, that the bonnet opener is still on the front passenger footwell.
Or their Endeavor which still incorporates the ancient Mazda Engine ?
Whose salesmen were impressing on potential customers that their SEFI engined Ikon were superior in technology to MPFI systems ?

You talk about the Santro. I have made a similar trip with the Santro. My knees touch both sides of the car body. I find the posture extremely uncomfortable. The car feels hugely underpowered with 5 people and luggage. It is not as fuel and cost efficient as my Indica which has a higher powered engine.

The Maruti 800 / Alto / Zen / Swift is too cramped compared to the Indica and are all underpowered compared to the Indica, save with the exception of the Swift, but even then its power to weight ratio is not too impressive when compared with the Indica.

Your arguments are elistist and irrational.

Why don't you list out the cars you would prefer over TATA's models and list their prices along-side. And as a reply I'll post the price of the equivalent TATA model. That should put things in perspective.

Frankly,
there are better ways to say that you are a buyer of more refined and expensive cars and that the TATA is below you. Elitist arguments are good for masaging one's ego, but rarely prove anything worthwhile.

Forgive me if I appear to be rude. But I was under the assumption here that this forum was a place to discuss issues rationally.

[esteem_lover]

chill hell_rider. different people have different opinions, just like you do.

Originally Posted by hell_rider

I

TATA cars have gone through more cabin and body revisions in a year than Maruti cars have undergone in a decade. and thats not pulled out of a hat. Check Indica / Indigo models and Maruti models in a similar timeframe. And everytime TATA refines the cabin, or introduces beige interiors as standrd, they do not launch it as NEW and IMPROVED.

why do you think that they had to make so many changes to their car ?

[hell_rider]

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

chill hell_rider. different people have different opinions, just like you do.

Sure...and I stated mine, just once for the very first time in this entire thread. and here we are, with me being advised to chill. where is the problem ?

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

why do you think that they had to make so many changes to their car ?

So the logic is if any other manufacturer makes changes, its new and improved and a step in the right direction,
but
if TATA does it its because their earlier models were crappy.

I would any day prefer a manufacturer who is pro-active and constantly improves his product line, as opposed to a manufacturer who continues to peddle an ancient product because it was perceived to be a good quality product when it was launched 2 decades ago.

who would you rather prefer ? a manufacturer who improves the fundamentals of his product or one who keeps incorporating new grilles and tail lights ???

come on...before you compare, look at the price points too. look at cost-effectiveness. mileage, a very serious consideration for many people.

and some people genuinely like diesels too.

i don't mind flaws being pointed out. I pointed out the flaws in my Indica the day I took delivery of my car, as compared to a Palio. You ca go check my initial reports on my car in the archives. And have done so on subsequent posts on my car as well. I am not one of those who believe their car is the best because its their choice.

but there has to be some basis for an argument. blanket statements stated as the gospel truth don't make for good forum content.

[salilpawar1]

yes, that's how it should go about? thanks hellrider for being frank...

[elf]

@hell_rider: That's one helluva post! Extremely well said, & I really like the way you put your points across.

[sakthivelm]

Well said hell_rider. Here is a link that is been updated weekly about which manufacturer issued recalls and TSBs . Almost all the players in the world take part in it. There is no exception. See where toyota and honda stand globaly. recalls_html

[hell_rider]

sure,

every manufacturer in the world, manufacturing anything and everything has quality problems at some point or the other, in one batch or the other, be it cars, processors, heavy equipment, tyres, brake pads....the list is endless.

I mean, Sony, one of the most reputed brands in electronics has been having a horrible quarter with their OEM battery recalls. So lets all write off Sony as a substandard manufacturer and dispose off our WEGAs and plasma TVs and LCD monitors too , walkmans and discmans, mini-music systems, playstations and everything else they make and buy some other brand.

the fact that people on this forum are using stationary Indicas they saw on the road to arrive at the conclusion that TATA as a manufacturer and all their products are bad is just atrocious.

I mean the arguments used here are just too ridiculous to even make me bother to hunt it up and bother to quote.

for eg. some posts back (you can look it up in the previous pages on this thread) an example was made about some guy's friend who received an Indica as a dowry and he feels he would have been better off in a Maruti 800.

So we are supposed to write off TATA as a bad manufacturer based on the words of a shameless creep who demands dowry in this day and age, and is worthless enough to be incapable of buying his own car, and an ungrateful wretch to boot. fantastic. that definitely builds the case against TATA.

To many Indicas seen stopped on the road while traveling. great.

how do you know that driver didn't just stop for a pee ?
how do you know the driver didn't run out of fuel ?
how do you know if he's just had a puncture ?
how do you know if he's abused the car by not maintaining it well, topping up with coolant etc ?
how do you know if its not just some couple who've stopped to kiss and cuddle ?

and assume even if it was indeed a break down,
you will obviously see more of TATA cars on long-haul driving than any other car, because TATAs are cost and fuel efficient on long drives.
So obviously, given that there are a larger number of TATA vehicles doing such long runs, the percentage of such cars is also likely to be higher.

And funnily, there was a post earlier, where one member mentioned about his Skoda breaking down. But all the TATA bashers just conveniently side-stepped that one. I mean, how can you say anything bad about a Skoda right ?

But hey, its TATA, so bring on the crap and lets unload it all.

Pathetic.

Fact of the matter is people just need something to point down and mock at to make themselves feel good. For a long long long while, it was FIAT and the Palio. Now that FIAT is starting to look good again, its TATA's turn.

Of all these people who talk about refinement and performance and bash TATA on those grounds, ask how many of them bought the Palio 1.6 ?? Surprisingly few would have. That should give you a good idea of what kind of hypocrisy this thread is all about. Why did you not buy one of the best performing, handling and exciting petrol hatchback ever manufactured in this country ? They will immediately state reasons like A*S*S, which they will insist is a very practical reason to not choose a car.

But when TATA owners mention the equally practical reason of mileage, these very same people will look down with scorn and pompousness and comment on how ignorant and undiscerning the multitude of the country and all TATA customers are for giving importance to frivolous factors like mileage. What country bumpkins indeed !!!!

Its a truckload of guano really.

This thread is not about a particular manufacturer or car or its quality. Its just a pissing contest.

This forum used to be about people who loved *Cars*. Who loved to talk about *cars*. Period. Now its just about people who love *their* cars and want to talk about how great *their cars* are, mock at other people who've made other choices, and then go to bed feeling good about themselves.

[Steeroid]

I think you made your point with your first - if slightly intense - post.

Every manufacturer has their strengths and weaknesses, and therefore supporters as well as opponents.

It is therefore unreasonable to expect everyone to go with one line of thought.

While it is sometimes necessary to lean far to the other side to steer a yatch in the right direction as you have tried to, too much of a lean will also cause it to capsize.

Originally Posted by hell_rider

This forum used to be about people who loved *Cars*. Who loved to talk about *cars*. Period. Now its just about people who love *their* cars and want to talk about how great *their cars* are, mock at other people who've made other choices, and then go to bed feeling good about themselves.

Those are rather strong comments. I would disagree with this particular set of comments, as would many others I'm sure.

[hell_rider]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Those are rather strong comments. I would disagree with this particular set of comments.

I know. I realized its unfair to the rest of the members. And if you had not already posted, I would have gone back and deleted it.

But lets just say it applies to the people, whose posts I take exception to and leave it at that.

And my apologies to the other members whose sensibilties have been offended by the above statement.

[iraghava]

So basically you're trying to tell me that your main criterion for buying a car is whether how cheap it is & how fuel efficient it is right? Well I'm assuming by your above comments that you use your car only as a tool for meeting your transportation needs. Nothing more than that.

Well for me my cars are my love, my passion & my soul. I care about them more than I care for anything else. I spend MY money to buy them so I have every right in the world to set my own criteria for purchase. If I value NVH, Good Engine & Gearbox, Pleaure to drive & Good Handling & am prepared to pay a little more for it how does it make me an Elitist? And how does it make me Irrational?

As for your YES to all my questions, if you think that your Indica has a good engine, gearbox, handling etc. You really need to stretch your view & see how much the car market has progressed. The Indica lags behind its rivals on all those fronts by a margin. You want proof of that I will give you that too.

As for my rationale on passing judgement on Diesel cars well I've driven everyone of them which is on sale in India & a few abroad too. Also a very close friend owned one of the very early first generation diesel Indica's (which he incidentally bought at a premium of 60k) & some of the others have owned a few more down the line with the latest being a top-of-the-line Indigo SX. The experience in all of them was similar really sorry & noisy engine, poor gearbox & really really bad dynamics & NVH. Now the friend who bought the first-generation Indica had the following problems - 4 sets of tyres were consumed within 50k because the front suspension problems were never sorted out properly by TATA. The fan belt noise never went away despite repeated efforts & changing of various parts by the company. The engine & gearbox once mysteriously shifted oh so slightly out of their designated mountings as my friend's brother drove a bit too fast over a speed-breaker & were repaired under warranty by the company. Infact he had so may problems his father has wowed never to buy a TATA product again. That experience good enough for you for my rationale? Or you want more examples?

As for your point about Fuel Efficiency & one of my Imported Petrol cars doing it. Well agreed none of the cars I like that can probably achieve that figure but did you notice by any chance that I never mentioned FE as one of my priorities on my list? I drive my cars for pleasure not for countings how many cents I saved each day by driving a diesel-powered bullock cart. And in any case atleast in one of the petrol powered cars I wouldn't arrive at my destination half-deaf. And frankly if I was an international manufacturer thinking of launching a diesel engined car I would not be too worried about TATA's engines. All they manage to do right now is produce a cheap car which runs on diesel & seems to make some people very happy who value their running costs above anything else.

As for improvements well yes TATA's cars have gone through a lot more upgrades then any other manufacturers and there's a good reason for it. I don't know if you've read well enough but that's because TATA has developed a habit of launching under-developed cars and then using us the buying public as guinea pigs or the R&D department for them. So if you're gonna save cost on R&D in the first place obviously you're gonna have to shell out for it when your customers come after you. As proof of this I suggest you go through the amount of part replacements & upgradation Steeroid's Dicor went through within the first 20,000kms. here:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...d-20000km.html

The extra updates do not only show pro-activeness but also show that the car had much more problems than normal & hence had to be improved in order to remain saleable. TATA has to improve the fundamnetals of it's products simply because they were screwed up in the first place. If they spent a little more time & money getting them right in the first place they wouldn't have had such a bad name & reputation. Infact the advice most given out for TATA products is that you should wait for 2 years after a new product is launched & then buy it. That ways all the problems that they inherently have will probably have been sorted out.

About the Mercedes & Skoda please go through the threads there are enough people including me clearly stating there that the products are flawed and warning other people to be wary. In fact I find myself regularly warning people considering the Skoda to be very wary of it's high maintenance. So please do not accuse us of double standards before confirming the facts. There are enough balanced people here despite what you think. And please do a search for Skoda threads & you'll find a lot of them where there is a fair amount of bashing going on.

Coming to Ford & Maruti please go back ready my posts & see if I've recommended them. I've always had a gripe with them for various reasons. And it's purely on merit, like for Ford I LOVED the Mondeo & still do. It's a fabulous product let down by the maintenance costs. As for the demister Maruti provides it on its cars costing around 4lacs too like the Zen, WagonR etc.

As for the Santro well we've owned two with one still serving as my mother's current car. I've never had issues with it with regards to the refinement, engine or gearbox. It is certainly not underpowered even with 5 people & definitely not when compared to the diesel Indica. I don't know what you drove but how do you touch your knees on both sides of the car when sitting? I didn't quite understand what you meant here.

Originally Posted by hell_rider

This forum used to be about people who loved *Cars*. Who loved to talk about *cars*. Period. Now its just about people who love *their* cars and want to talk about how great *their cars* are, mock at other people who've made other choices, and then go to bed feeling good about themselves.

Well I don't know if you realise this but what you state above is exactly what you yourself are doing right now. Talk about Hypocrisy. And just for the record I have never even mentioned my car in this thread.

If by your assessment I am Elitist & Irrational since I demand the most for my money by looking for a good engine & gearbox, refinement, pleasure to drive etc. as my primary requirements which is in contrast to yours of being cheap & fuel-efficient then Yes I am an Elitist & I have no problem with that. What I think of you & your personal attack on me for telling what I think is the truth about TATA cannot be put here for various reasons.

I have no qualms or misgivings about what I own & where it's abilities & weaknesses lie. I'm not afraid to mention them either & I have done so in some of the many buying advices I've given out on the forum. In fact I like to think I'm one of more balanced people on the forum who are not afraid to call a spade a spade be it TATA or Hyundai or Maruti or Mercedes. However, for you to come out without reading all that & calling me an Elitist, Irrational & a Hypocrite is very hard to digest. When I never even mentioned my own car here. I would suggest you keep your qualms & opinions to yourself from next time onwards & not convert them into personal attacks. Bearing in mind my criticism of TATA was of the company & its products not you or one of the other TATA owners. My love for cars is my deepest Love & even people like you cannot change that. I'll still Eat, Breathe, Sleep Cars! And continue to discuss CARS not mine or yours. What you think of it is your problem.

[dr fate]

Originally Posted by hell_rider

But hey, its TATA, so bring on the crap and lets unload it all.

Pathetic.


This forum used to be about people who loved *Cars*. Who loved to talk about *cars*. Period. Now its just about people who love *their* cars and want to talk about how great *their cars* are, mock at other people who've made other choices, and then go to bed feeling good about themselves.

Come on my friend this is rather too harsh!!many here like me own multiple cars along with a tata and its my opinion that passion seen in the "inputs"may ALSO be there due to personal experience,

comparisons with similarly priced products are the reasons why such topics arise which is healthy not wrong!

is it wrong for me to compare my innova with my dicor though similarly priced and say it is comparable in quality!!!!then where did my money go?

is it wrong for me to get frustrated with umpteen visits to the workshop for v.v silly reasons just because some YOBO would not assemble his products with expected and required concentration but wants as much price as his international rivals?IT is OUR HARD EARNED MONEY even putting my best patriotic foot my head and heart and TIME fell extremly betrayed!!

despite this many of us are tata owners..heck some of us are even associated with it and am very happy as long as its trouble free......but when the trouble starts and it is not justified like all things in life we have right to comment on it,

i really love TATA(in my case safari)but not what i have to pay to get what i get.

[Sandind]

Unbeliveble..... my SE+ gives solid milg.of 11.5 kmpl @ 90kmph.
There are certain driving limitations to obtain good mileg. Instead of protesting this way ( Pictures background ) its shamful to him. In future is he going to protest against Cheverolet & Innova.....for milg 6.5 kmpl in city.

[iraghava]

Thank you Doc! It feels very nice hear a balanced opinion from a Tata owner & associate.