24th November 2006, 02:42 | #121 | |||||||||||||||
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| stop acting like a wounded doe. Quote:
I was very clear I wanted a hatchback and it had to be a diesel because I foresaw a very heavy daily running. The TCIC Indica I drive was better than the normal indica, in build quality, power, and mileage and come with better accessories. Additionally, I was all set to go for the Palio diesel. But FIAT's Kurla plant shut down post the 26/7 rains. I waited close to 2 months. I was then informed that production might not re-start until well into first quarter of 2006.By December 2005, certain domestic and professional compulsions forced my hand and I ended up picking up my TCIC Indica in December, because there simply was no other option from the other "refined and quality manufacturers", save for the Skoda, which was beyond my budget. I could not even wait till January, so that I could at least have a 2006 model, which many advised would help me with resale value. Quote:
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"I am used to and / or want better refinement levels. I don't think TATA products offer those levels. So I chose to / would choose to go for Brand A /B / C. even though I have to pay more for such levels of refinement." But no. You had to rub TATA's nose in the dust to force your point that you were above the TATA owners. What was the need for that ?? And now suddenly you are getting all pedantic about the points I have made. Additionally, the comparisons and examples you have provided are absolutely incorrect, misleading and entirely self-serving. I quote your comments again for your benefit: Quote:
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Of course, I am sure you also found the Esteem's rear seat more spacious and comfortable than the Indigo's. Kind of surprised you failed to mention that. Quote:
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If you believe giving examples proves your point, would you retract your stand if I can show you 10 satisfied TATA owners for every disgruntled owner you get me ? If that is not acceptable to you, then you should save your breath and stop beating on "my friend this..." and "my friend that..." grandfather/grandmother stories to prove your unsubstantiated claims. Read my comment on Sony's battery recall above. Thats how much importance I give to your "conclusive example". Quote:
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Or maybe given your attitude, you believe such people are better off not owning cars at all, and you are simply pissed off that so many other people can drive as well. Quote:
At least hand it to TATA for the courage to put their reputation on their line and appreciate the fact that they have made it possible for the average India Joe or Jitu to own a car that does not cost an arm and a leg, is not the size of a milk carton, and doesn't cost a kidney in running costs. But these are the other important aspects in the light of this discussion you conveniently choose to ignore. Quote:
And speaking of Honda, I am sure you remember how gracious Honda was post 26/7, when it pulled back warranties for all flood-damaged cars, even for those customers who had paid for extended 3-year warranties. I am sure you found that ethical. Quote:
What I meant, by the way, was my right knee bumping against the door / handle area and right leg to the side of area between the steering and the AC control and stereo housing. So you see the pattern here ???? You did not have a space problem, a power problem or posture problem, so the Santro has to be good. But in-spite of other people feeling the same way about the Indica, the Indica still has got to be bad, because you think so. Grow up dude. Mature discussions are made based on measurements, facts, figures and verifiable data. Not on cock and bull stories about conveniently unverifiable "friends" or other such people. Get a ruler and measure areas inside both cars. Buy a decibel meter and measure NVH levels. Take a high speed turn in both cars and arrive at handling characteristics. Of course, make sure you try it first on the Indica, coz, you may well not come off safe and sound after trying it in the Santro. Considering you are so stung to the quick, you must stop for a moment before you go spouting off. If there is a better way to make your point without trying to trash anything else, always do so. Best Regards, hell_rider Last edited by hell_rider : 24th November 2006 at 03:00. | |||||||||||||||
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24th November 2006, 02:48 | #122 | |
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come on , dr.fate. I am not a TATA fanatic. Heck, its not even about the car anymore. Its just the attitude that pi**es me off. I am the first to acknowledge the areas where TATA can improve. I have stated that too in a couple of posts here where it has been relevant. I know TATA cars have issues. But there are so many other positives they offer, which are all being conveniently glossed over. I know TATA cars are not the be-all and end-all. But that doesn't mean they are worthy of the crap being unloaded on them. | |
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24th November 2006, 03:19 | #123 |
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| Hell_rider & iraghava, I think both your opinions have been expressed and are very clear to the rest of the members reading this thread. The only confusion that may still exist is between the two of you. Lets end the public discussion between the two of you on this note. cya R |
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24th November 2006, 03:33 | #124 |
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| Perfectly acceptable to me Rehaan. In any case, I realise this debate is getting dangerously close to breaking the Code of Conduct here and I really have no desire to cross that line. Regards, Hell_rider |
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24th November 2006, 06:15 | #125 |
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| @hellrider ... first of all .. ur brilliantly expressive and ur english is impeccable .. i really enjoyed reading all ur posts .. and i have to say that i'm with you .. i'm not gonna go over everything again but hey .. give TATA their due .. problems notwithstanding .. they're the first all Indian Car Manufacturer who had the guts to go it the hard way and not just tie up with someone else and begin by assembling cars that had already had their R & D done in some other country by some other manufacturer .. i read some references to Skoda in some previous posts .. does anyone remember the illustrious antecedents of Skoda ?? Heck .. they had spawned a whole series of Skoda jokes back then .. remember the funny cars they made ?? and look at them now .. Everyone has a learning curve and a teething period .. some more than others .. and that does'nt necessarily make them "crap" .. TATA are already showing vast improvement .. something they have done voluntarily on their own .. from their own need to strive for a better product .. from continuous R & D .. they have'nt been resting on their laurels .. the V2 sold like hot cakes from the time it was launched .. then why invest in further R & D and come up with the Turbo ?? why not just sell as many V2s as possible and keep raking in the moolah as long as it comes .. like maruti did with the 800 if u remember .. when did maruti finally even facelift the 800 ?? why ?? i think we need to look at these things before we blindly criticise a manufacturer .. and when one compares TATA to other manufacturers it would do well to bear in mind that it is the only all Indian car manufacturer with a varied lineup .. from a hatch, to a sedan, to a station wagon, to an MUV, to an SUV .. Mahindra only makes the same old Jeep variants (that it has for years) and one new vehicle .. the Scorpio .. where it can devote all it's R & D resources .. and correct me if i'm wrong .. the Scorpio engine is Renault sourced .. oops this started out as a few lines .. ok i'll cease here .. @elf .... hilarious as usual .. had me in splits .. i don't believe he did'nt get it .... |
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24th November 2006, 11:26 | #126 |
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| Well I think the line is pretty clearly drawn up. There are those who are satisfied with their TATAs and there are those who won't touch one with a barge pole. All new buyers will eventually fall into one or the other category. As far as being "harsh" goes, I believe you are entitled to it if you are being jerked around after you've spent your hard earned money, be it a TATA or a Mercedes. Enough threads have been put up on bad Skodas, Mercs, Fords etc. Just because a manufacturer is Indian doesn't give them a licence to get away with it. |
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24th November 2006, 13:31 | #127 |
BANNED | @revvhed: First of all, your post was terrible. Try using punctuation. And the term, presumably is "you are" & not "ur". And no, I don't think hell_rider has time for my sidey one-liners. To put this topic to rest, let the following now be declared (as town crier, I have certain rights ) 1. iraghava is an elitist pile of dookie because he drives a ratty old Honda City & he's proud of it; 2. hell_rider has no taste, hearing or brains because he has a Tata; and 3. you don't have a hope in hell because you park your Esteem under a gravity enhanced coconut tree. I drive a Lancer, which is the best car in the world. And the sun shines out of my After Sales Service. So there. |
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24th November 2006, 13:54 | #128 | |
Senior - BHPian | Quote:
Regarding the comment that Tata-bashers rely on "so-called" friend's sob stories to bash away, well, no one can afford to make all the mistakes himself. Its wiser to learn from the mistakes of those around you. And in this case, it is not just stories from a friend's friend. We have owner reviews on tbhp itself that detail the visits to the garage and the parts changed etc. And all of this in the warranty period and within days/weeks of buying a new car. If this does not shed light on the reliability (or lack of it) of a car, I am not sure what will. | |
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24th November 2006, 14:35 | #129 |
Senior - BHPian | True Meaning of Value. Question this please !!! I bought a 1993 Maruthi 1000 in 1999 for Rs.1.65 Lakhs, a steal at that time. it had 45k on the odo. i used/abused the vehicle to its limits for 4 years. i drove more than a lakh kms in that car in those 4 years, mostly on bad fuel, LPG, very bad roads, v.poor maintanence (Never followed a schedule) etc. In 2003, i sold it for 95 K. Inspite of my abuse, the car broke down just one single day & the matter was a blown fuse that was resolved within 40 mins & for a few punctures when my MRF tyres were exposing the steel belts. we can argue that the 1000 has the worst pick up or it is a dated model which is still being sold with a 1.3L engine & that maruthi is taking the indian buyers for a ride blah blah blah. Now this is called V A L U E. If anybody thinks that Indica is VFM, then think again after reading this. It returned a mileage of 12 Kmpl in the city & 18 Kmpl on the highway. Overall, i would have spent 25k in the 4 years for its maintenance. 1. i had to do the clutch - 4k 2. changed the brake booster stuff 3.5 k 3. change the alternator regulator. 3 k 4. i had to repaint a door because one scooterist found it to be the safe place to fall when a lorry hit him from behind. 2k 5. i had to repaint the tail as an errant sumo reversed his butt into my tail. 2k 6. refill the ac gas a couple of times. 1.5k 7. replaced the tyres once. 9k the figures given above are rough. i dont remember exactly. i have all those bills though. i hear that car is still running beautifully, my mechanic in hosur says. how is that for VFM ? I am sure many Maruti owners can say the same thing that i have said. i would love to hear a TATA owner have a similar experience. TATA is still W-I-P, Maruti may be old, drab & boring, but it is a F.P. cheers Last edited by esteem_lover : 24th November 2006 at 14:40. |
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24th November 2006, 17:37 | #130 | |
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24th November 2006, 17:53 | #131 |
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| To re-iterate the point I was trying to make: No one including myself would contest the fact that there are many areas where TATA can improve. I repeat as I have stated above. I am not a TATA zealot. I have highlighted some of the problems earlier and will do so in my long term review of my car. I completely accept that TATA cars offer lower levels of refinements as compared to other manufacturers. All I was saying was everything needs to considered in context. Its a bit unfair if isolated points are pulled out of the whole set of inter-related factors and used to further a belief. I am not discounting fellow members' bad experiences with TATA and the heartburn it would have undoubtedly caused you. Heck, for all you know, my car could start developing problems tomorrow, and I'll be right here bitching and moaning about it. But that doesn't mean everything about the manufacturer is bad. But I take exception to the way the demographic breakup and buying rationale of the TATA customers has been projected on this thread. As follows: TATA customers have only low up-front cost and mileage as their prime consideration. Not true. As mentioned above, TATA provides a car in a class (diesel hatchback and diesel sedan) that no other manufacturer offers competing products in especially the price range. This is a factor that is consistently overlooked. TATA customers don't really care about quality. I doubt if any customer anywhere in the world would not care about the quality of his new purchase. At least, relatively to the cost of the car, there is a certain quality that is expected. Now the interesting part here is that the insinuation has been made that TATA sells because of patriotic fervor and their customer's low weightage assigned to quality. Looking at it the other way, can it also be said that: Satisfied TATA customers are those who have bought TATA cars fully aware of the quality levels it can offer as compared to the bester refined options available, and are therefore not dissatisfied, especially when considered with the price paid and subsequent low running costs. And lets say I even accept the the general sentiment here that TATA customers are ignorant about quality levels and are cheap enough to only consider low upfront cost and mileage as main factors in their car-purchase. So, proceeding on the premise that the above statement is true, and extending the above statement further, can we not also say that, Dissatisfied TATA customers are those who thought they could get away with buying a product that cost less and one which offered much more attractive value proposition, but were dissatisfied because they expected the same levels of quality and refinement, available in a higher priced car, which they were not willing to pay in the first place ? If all of the above hold true, who is more ignorant about quality levels and who is cheaper? The manufacturer or the customer who complains ? It is useless to consider quality levels in isolation, without it being viewed along with the price levels at which that quality is offered. OK..let me as a loaded question here ???? Especially considering the fact that people are so free with their criticisms. lets see how people are good at answering some valid points. At least for the customers who invested in TATA diesel Indicas and Indigos have the argument, that there was no other similar product on offer from any other manufacturer at those price points. I am just very unclear on the buying criteria and decision making rationale of the dissatisfied Indica/Indigo Petrol owners. Why on earth did you choose the Indica/Indigo petrol ?? Especially since by that time everyone was aware of the initial lot Indica horror stories and having seen so many dissatisfied cases first hand. And unlike the diesel customers, you had a multitude of options. You had the Ford Ikon 1.3 and the 1.6, the Esteem and the Accent. In hatchbacks, too many options to list here. So why exactly did you choose the Indica/Indigo petrol ? It can't be patriotic reasons because its already been said that patriotic considerations for choosing a car are misplaced, and which has been made abundantly clear. Surely not because of the Indica / Indigo petrol's astounding mileage, I would say. So why exactly ? Was it because the Indica / Indigo petrol offered the cheapest way into a reasonably large petrol car ? And the discounts !!! The juicy discounts on TATA petrols was just too good to resist, I would say. So basically, in spite of better options available in the market, in the exact class and category of automobiles you were looking for, there were plenty of other options, still the Indica / Indigo petrol was chosen. And when it did not match the refinement of the slightly higher priced options, you complain and pass derogatory comments on the manufacturer, conveniently forgetting how little you paid in the first place. Is it because the free lunch you were looking for did not materialise ? Something to think about, Hell, I may be wrong. But I also raised some possibilities that can be discussed, as opposed to some who are just drawing conclusions expecting it to be accepted. |
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24th November 2006, 18:35 | #132 | |
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And this Work-In-Progress as opposed to a finished product is a bit sad. People who understand engineering will know it is almost the norm. Building a car is not like building a spoon. This happens even in aircrafts where safety and quality are not just catch-phrases. They are real things and are the difference between life and death to the passengers flying in them. Both Boeing and Airbus constantly keep releasing modifications that operators need to integrate, incorporate and comply with. Airbus is much cheaper. But when we have taken delivery of the aircraft, it has sometimes come with a list of mods to be incorporated, before it goes into revenue service. And maintenance requirements for Airbus are almost always more complicated as compared to Boeing, which almost every aviation maintenance engineer will tell you is easier to maintain. But look at the Airbus A318/319/320/321 series and how well its sold in the last decade. Even in India, Indigo Airlines has booked 100 of them outright. Because, at the time an airline is starting up, often you do not have the luxury of going for the more complete finished and relatively superior quality product. So, when you have another option that offers a fantastic value proposition, you choose it. Even SQ, one of the most cash-rich airlines in the world, which has the youngest and best maintained fleet in the world and which operates large number B747-400s and 777 Jubilees, also operate their Airbus A340 Celstars on their long haul routes and the A310-300 on their shuttle routes. You know why ??? operational costs. more bang for the buck. Its the exact same logic, but one people refuse to see. And while you are on the topic of releasing unfinished products, I would like to see people choosing something other than Windows. How many of these people run MAC OS, or Linux or Unix ? | |
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24th November 2006, 19:08 | #133 | |
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And Windows has come a long way - when's Tata's equivalent of Windows NT going to come? Would that be the Dicor series or with the Multi-jet engines? | |
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24th November 2006, 19:16 | #134 | |
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While there have been oodles and oodles of discussions here on the Baleno engine in the Swift or the "imminent" JTD in the Swift, and while Ford has launched their 1.4 TDCI, which has received miced responses on account of its power characteristics (I personally like it though) and so forth, TATA has gone ahead, with turboing its diesels, then intercooling them, dicorising the safari, and with very strong vibes about the dicorising of the Indigo as well, and already we are talking about the next generation of their DICOR. Not to mention the improvements they are making with their petrols as well. I did a one-year "auditioning" of cars before I picked up mine. And in between every three months, when I would visit a TATA dealer, the interiors would look different. So that is a good thing for me. When the manufacturer actively deploys "patches" across the range. Last edited by hell_rider : 24th November 2006 at 19:17. | |
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24th November 2006, 19:52 | #135 |
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| Hi I have an Indica thats 5 yrs old and a Safari thats one year old. I love both of them. Crib about the interiors , the plastics , everything but TATA still gives you features comparable with most foreign cars at an Indian price and the vehicles are not gas guzzlers atleast. They give OK mileage for the fuel they run on. I am proud too. Of course, we are guinea pigs for all companies being a country which has a great demand for everything"Phoren"! |
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