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Old 28th November 2018, 06:05   #46
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I signed up for ET Prime and read that article. But I am not convinced Ford has long term plans for India given their losses and measly single digit market share even after 2 decades. So, in the meantime they apply a band-aid & reduce the pain by selling a 51% stake to M&M for Rs 2K Cr turning into a passenger instead of a driver in the partnership. Now, what does that do to brand 'Ford' in this country?

I speak from personal experience with the former Fiat-Tata alliance, an automobile industry "Frankenstein" if there was one, that IMO benefited nobody least of all Fiat vehicle owners. Fiat botched it up so bad resulting in what I believe is irrecoverable damage to its reputation in this country. I truly hope Ford is not heading towards the same path as either FCA or GM. Fingers crossed.

Globally the biggest of auto manufacturers have resorted to alliances and partnerships to survive. And ford has no choice in India. As of today, they are like a one trick pony. Except the Ecosport none of their other cars do decent numbers. The Figo had flopped big time, the aspire is a Cabbie favourite now, and the Endy is a namesake flagship, that delivers numbers par for the course, well the t-fort is an exception. And the revamped Figo in the name of Freestyle is struggling for its identity. I do not know if it can sustain the 1-2k sales that its doing now.

But the real serious issue is that Ford has no big product plans in India! Nothing in 2019 for sure. And even if there is a new car in 2020, well none of us have heard about it for sure. I read an article in Autocar a while ago and that did mention some long term plans and launches, but it does not look like that. Ford would prefer to cut its losses and have a tie up with Mahindra. Works for both of them, I guess. Mahindra may gain some technical know how and Ford finds this as a way to survive in India for another decade without investing too much.
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Old 28th November 2018, 07:21   #47
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

A re-run of 1995-1996 when Ford originally debuted in India with the Mahindra alliance?
It used to be called Mahindra Ford in those days as I remember, first working out of Mumbai and Nashik and then when they were setting up their plant in Maraimalai Nagar in Madras.
I wonder what really went wrong with Ford in India. And what is going wrong with so many manufacturers in their India business.
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Old 28th November 2018, 13:31   #48
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

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Originally Posted by sukiwa View Post
Mahindra engines to be heart of Ford Ecosport.

Source, news excerpt
I simply fail to understand this move:

1. The 1.5 DV5 diesel engine is BS6 compatible and has the capability to produce 125hp / 300 Nm if fitted with a VGT (EU spec in Euro 6 currently).

2. The Dragon 1.5 is also BS6 compatible.

Only thing which I can think of is a new turbo petrol from Mahindra, which might replace the EcoBoost as a cost efficient alternative and help Ford improve margins on that product variant.

If FORD is genuinely planning to replace the Existing 1.5 TDCi & 1.5 Dragon with the Ssyangyong engines; then it will be an absolute shame..!!

Apart from this, I think they might have the Ssangyong platform for future product portfolio with Mahindra 6-speed gearbox used in Marazzo for their diesel engines to improve fuel economy and drivability in BS6 engines - This is cheaper for FORD's current volumes in place of getting a new gearbox as a standalone supply.
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Old 28th November 2018, 15:57   #49
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

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Originally Posted by Surya-TJet View Post
I simply fail to understand this move:

1. The 1.5 DV5 diesel engine is BS6 compatible and has the capability to produce 125hp / 300 Nm if fitted with a VGT (EU spec in Euro 6 currently).

2. The Dragon 1.5 is also BS6 compatible.
What does this mean for current owners and others who purchase the current Ecosport TDCI in the next year and a half? Do the vehicles contradict emission regulations ? How will it work out regarding continued ownership of these vehicles?
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Old 28th November 2018, 17:18   #50
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

FORD is doing a big gamble here. The last 2 petrol engines released by Mahindra were a bit letdown. The 1.2 3-Cylinder just did not get much appreciation on KUV. Much less to be said about the 2.2 mHawk they plonked on XUV which means that unlike the diesel engines, Mahindra has been a super flop in their petrol attempts.

On the other hand, FORD has given us petrol gems with 1.0L Ecoboost on Ecosport(Low Mileage though) , highly appreciated 95BHP 1.2 petrol on the Freestyle/New Aspire.

So the question is
1) Why are going back to their ex and going ahead with Mahindra petrol engines in spite of proven disasters.
2) World is moving towards hybrid and electric but India is not there yet but moving towards Petrol in a big way for now and suddenly FORD decides to scrap their petrol engines in India. Are the cost of making their engines BS VI compliant that high that they don't want to invest at all in the existing engines?

If this is indeed true, one thing is very clear, they will 3-5 years down the line scrap all the sedans/hatchbacks like they did in NA. They might be just ensuring that they don't bleed much then with investments on small petrol engines.

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Originally Posted by Surya-TJet View Post

If FORD is genuinely planning to replace the Existing 1.5 TDCi & 1.5 Dragon with the Ssyangyong engines; then it will be an absolute shame..!!
From where are you deducing this? In the article, there is mention only about petrol engines. Did you read something more somewhere else or are you just assuming/speculating something out of nothing?
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Old 28th November 2018, 22:11   #51
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

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Originally Posted by arindambasu13 View Post
What does this mean for current owners and others who purchase the current Ecosport TDCI in the next year and a half? Do the vehicles contradict emission regulations ? How will it work out regarding continued ownership of these vehicles?
Existing BS3 & BS4 cars can run safely with periodic maintenance. Existing vehicles are allowed to contradict the emission norms as these engines cannot be converted to BS6 very easily. Its very expensive and not really helpful for new car sales anyway. Existing cars can be run until a scrappage policy or a Lifecycle limit similar to NCR region is mandated across the country.

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Originally Posted by RaghuVis View Post
From where are you deducing this? In the article, there is mention only about petrol engines. Did you read something more somewhere else or are you just assuming/speculating something out of nothing?
I am not deducing / assuming / speculating from just the above article. I have given my views based on knowledge of how automotive product development & supply chain works. Currently they run an engine plant with a certain amount of engines being built on specific lines. Components are brought from suppliers based on volume projections given the sales and marketing team on the model mix and order inventory. And they usually achieve economies of scale by retaining the same set of suppliers for all the engine platforms.

Given Ford's already limited volume; I highly doubt that they will be able to maintain a profitable cost target if they allow only one specific set of engines to be brought from Mahindra. On the other hand, Mahindra will not simply let their partnership go to waste as they will try to earn royalty by pushing across more solutions and systems to Ford and in-turn target to increase their profitability in this joint venture.

Hence my statement in the above post. But I would love to be proven wrong by Ford as I wish to upgrade to another Ford product from my Ecosport a few years down the line. And I will do that only if they will bring home-bred engines instead of hand-me-downs.
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Old 29th November 2018, 13:29   #52
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

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Originally Posted by RaghuVis View Post
.. FORD has given us petrol gems with 1.0L Ecoboost on Ecosport(Low Mileage though) ..

I don't think this it is a "Gem". May be it is, from specifications point of view but the actual users feedback is mostly negative. To me, this engine is just a marketing gimmick.
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Old 5th December 2018, 13:53   #53
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

Mahindra will need petrol powered UVs in their portfolio, in my opinion. Knowledgeable team-BHP members working in the auto industry are slowly confirming that the cost to meet BS 6 diesel emission norms will add 2 lakhs to every BS 6 diesel car's cost. This might be the extinction event for diesel cars in India, according to one member (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post4502282 (The 2018 next-gen Maruti Ertiga, now launched at Rs 7.44 lakhs)).

Basically, once diesel cars begin costing 2 lakhs more, petrol cars will start winning sales. So, think about petrol-powered Scorpios, TUVs, XUVs, Marazzos...all of these are heavy behemoths. Without any structural modifications or changes to their components, they will remain heavy. In other words, they'll return terrible petrol mileage.

Maybe this is where Ford can teach Mahindra a thing or two about shedding weight on their body-on-frame UVs, so that their existing vehicles can be powered by petrol. Without load-shedding, I only foresee Mahindra having petrol-powered behemoths weighing 1.6 tonne or more, returning 6 - 8 Kmpl. Or, they'll continue to sell BS 6 diesel UVs which only fleet operators will buy. Most private car buyers will not buy BS 6 diesel cars as the high costs won't make any sense to them for their kind of usage.

I really hope for Mahindra's sake that they get Ford to teach them this.
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:02   #54
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

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New Ford W605 SUV launch by 2021 – Based on next gen Mahindra XUV500
Ford and Mahindra announced a strategic alliance last year to explore synergies across various domains including powertrain, connected technologies, platforms, etc. The alliance will achieve fruition by 2020 when the next generation Mahindra XUV500 (codenamed W601) makes its debut at the Auto Expo.
The new XUV500 will be underpinned by an all-new monocoque platform, complete with a new 2.0-liter diesel engine, increased dimensions, and fresh design inside out. This platform will also spawn a new Ford SUV.
Based on the same platform, a new Ford SUV will is also in the making, which is codenamed W605. It is slated to be launched in 2021. This Ford SUV too will be manufactured at Mahindra’s Chakan factory alongside the new XUV500.
The new Ford SUV will share its platform, engines, and several other components with its Mahindra sibling but it will carry a distinctly different design and appeal. While the next gen XUV500 would be primarily styled by Mahindra Group’s subsidiary Pininfarina, the new Ford’s styling language is expected to be inspired by the immensely popular F150 pick-up truck.
Both SUVs will be powered by Mahindra’s newly developed 2.0-liter four-cylinder turbocharged diesel engine which is said to have its power output in the ballpark of 180 PS. Both manual and automatic transmissions would be on offer. The fully-loaded variants are expected to be equipped with a comprehensive AWD system. Both models would be larger than the current XUV500 and will offer 3 rows of seating.
Source.
Not sure how much of this is true, but if it is going to look anything like the Raptor F150, it'll be a great start to this collaboration. I expect this partnership to fare better than Renault Nissan, as both partners are established in their own right and cater to different sets of buyers (though this is changing with time). I hope, Ford has learnt from its past mistakes in our market(which to its credit, it has) and does necessary course corrections.
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Old 12th January 2019, 02:16   #55
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

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I can't find any other reason, Ford can benefit from Mahindra. Mahindra of course can benefit from learning a thing or two about making good cars.
Completely agree with you. Ford is an established brand in India and I fail to understand the synergies of this partnership.

I may be wrong, though.
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Old 12th January 2019, 03:32   #56
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

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Originally Posted by Mukund View Post
Source.
Not sure how much of this is true, but if it is going to look anything like the Raptor F150, it'll be a great start to this collaboration. I expect this partnership to fare better than Renault Nissan, as both partners are established in their own right and cater to different sets of buyers (though this is changing with time). I hope, Ford has learnt from its past mistakes in our market(which to its credit, it has) and does necessary course corrections.
Being a Ford owner, I have a mixed feeling about this. It is good to know that Ford is indeed here to stay in India. However, with so much shared with the Mahindra, I wonder if the W605 will really 'feel' like a Ford. The current Figo twins have already lost their way a bit, hope that their future products don't start to feel alien when compared to the Ford's like the Fiesta and the Ecosport.

Here's to hoping that the W605 feels like a Ford. I would really like them to launch more of their traditional products in India as well.
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:08   #57
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

I think this is not a bad idea if the products look significantly different. Nissan has done a good job by differentiating the Kicks from the Captur by using very few common cosmetic bits.

Apart from the XUV500 twin, I am more interested in the smaller sub-4m SUV that they are likely to develop together.
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