[ank.nsit]

Yaris' tyres look hideously disproportionate to the body.

Looking at the small tyres, the overall product definitely seems to be targeted for the mass market. Hence, making it costlier than Honda City seems less probable.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by arunramaswamy

But it will probably outlast the 15 year registration period comfortably. I am not even bringing resale, parts availability and cost and ASS competency into picture yet.

I agree; and because of this, the car is meant for people that want more of a reliable appliance and less of a love object.

What this means is that the car also does not make as much sense for people that want to swap out new cars every 4-5 years. Most modern cars need little service attention beyond routine/consumables in that time; on the other hand, the Toyota benefits of a long and cheap service life will not have fully kicked in.

But this also make a one owner Toyota with some life still left in the warranty period to be excellent value for purchase, having shed much of any premium pricing as depreciation. Particularly the petrol engine cars, because these tend to be flogged a lot less but suffer more loss of value compared to diesels as soon as they are driven out of the showroom.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by aniketi

Cons -
1 Looks ordinary, nothing special at all.
2 Will surely going to be costly affair. Expecting 18 Lakhs on road for top end.
3 Ordinary interiors, nothing great here.

1 Most Toyotas are bland to pleasant looking, not sharp, not eye catching but cars that have acceptable looks and styling. They wow nobody but dont put off anyone either.

For styling, handling and looks one should consider an EU car. Even the most common EU cars like the Fiats or VWs handle way better than Japanese cars in the same category.

2 I expect the price to be at the Honda City level (Rs 9-13L ex-showroom depending on trim) if not at a slight premium. The HC is the prime competitor for this car. Given both manufacturers make reliable cars what will differentiate the Yaris from the City is the after sales service and moderate maintenance costs. And most importantly with none of the attitude most Honda ASCs have.

3 Well, I find them the interiors decent. My friends and neighbours have Honda City cars (I had one too a long time ago) and the Yaris's interior look much in the same segment. Of course a proper official review on T-BHP in due course will reveal all!

[motorworks]

I think this whole reliability thing is being blown out of proportion. An average Petrol sedan user may end up doing about 50-70K in a span of about 5-7 years at the maximum. And most cars today from Hyundai or Honda or Ford can carry off this without any hassle. Sure some of them have some niggles etc but nothing far fetched. And if you keep only the Asians in the fight then Hyundai and Honda will do just as good as a Toyota.

Outliving the period of registration or even the owner, well that is just good talk but not practical to say the least.

Not saying that reliability over such a long terms is not a good thing, but you also have to consider the other factors during the first 5-7 years of ownership.
The thing with a Toyota is that they offer nothing exciting, in terms of engine or gear box options. Hyundai and Honda have been offering top of the class powerful engines for over a decade now. So why should Toyota not do that? Would the reliability then come down by few years?

[Sawyer]

I am certainly one that will keep my 2013 car for at least ten years, perhaps fifteen. So the relevant Toyota qualities matter to me; I would rather spend my money on things that matter a lot more to me than cars that I see as just transport appliances to go from point A to point B. Life has more to offer than cars.

And in the taxi trade, that translates to half that life which is why Toyotas are so popular as taxis the world over. I also may be an exception that sees this use of the car as a taxi as a plus point to my purchasing decision than as a minus, much the way I prefer busy restaurants to quiet exclusive ones for proof that the eating will be good there.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

I am certainly one that will keep my 2013 car for at least ten years, perhaps fifteen. So the relevant Toyota qualities matter to me;

+1 here. My Altis turns 10 this Oct and I'll be keeping it as long as possible even if/when I upgrade to a Big 3 EU sedan. Heck! If I have an expensive tantrum queen in the garage it stands to reason I also need a reliable car.

But the car is more to me than just a method of transport from A to B. I love cars (or bikes) of all types.

[jaganpec2002]

Originally Posted by motorworks

I think this whole reliability thing is being blown out of proportion.
The thing with a Toyota is that they offer nothing exciting, in terms of engine or gear box options. Hyundai and Honda have been offering top of the class powerful engines for over a decade now.

I think the exciting engine and gearbox option is the thing that is blown out of proportion. If we have a poll in Team-Bhp about the exciting engine/gearbox combination, most of the cars that rank on the top would be market duds. That would be the proof for that.

As far as Toyota's reliability is concerned, people go with it eyes closed not only in India but in the US as well. Again that is the proof for that.

[motorworks]

Originally Posted by jaganpec2002

I think the exciting engine and gearbox option is the thing that is blown out of proportion. If we have a poll in Team-Bhp about the exciting engine/gearbox combination, most of the cars that rank on the top would be market duds. That would be the proof for that.



As far as Toyota's reliability is concerned, people go with it eyes closed not only in India but in the US as well. Again that is the proof for that.

Did not quite get what you are trying to convey.

My point is simple, why cannot Toyota provide better engine options? Why do they restrict engine options to the Indian market and yet charge a premium? The corolla sells at 21-25 Lakhs and yet the engine that powers it is bettered by cars 1-2 segments lower. And yet the corolla is not cheaper than say an Elantra or an Octavia!

And you say engine / Gearbox combinations are blown out of proportion? Then why should Hyundai offer at least 2-3 engine options for Verna, Creta and plus manual / auto combinations for each of them? And why would VW stretch themselves to offer such a long list of engine gearbox options? May be they understand something that you do not? And although small, there are people who want such engines and gearbox combinations. One of the VW dealers mentioned that almost 20-30% or all polos sold are the GT TSi version, at least in urban markets.

The thing is Toyota wants you to take what they offer, at least in India. And they want to charge a premium for their reliability. I would rather spend a little less upfront, get a Hyundai or even a Honda with better engine, gearbox option and happily part way with the car 6-7 years later.

And I said this whole reliability thing is blown out of proportion because most examples here point out cabbies driving the Etios for a few lakh kilometers. Did they not do the same with the Logan? I have personally seen Logans with 4-6 lakh kms and the cabbies too vouched for their low cost maintenance. Sure, Toyota may be better here in terms of longevity, but if you compare something like a Logan and Etios, there is not a huge difference in terms of reliability or cost of maintenance.

No offence to Toyota fans and people who want to own one for generations, my only grouse is that Toyota in India seems to have a take it or leave it attitude with their premium pricing and limited engine options. Which by the way is not something they do in other markets. You can check Indonesia or any other other Asian markets or even the US, they offer more engine options everywhere.


And that is where my point is with the Yaris. Toyota comes to the C segment party late, yet with no clear distinction. No Turbo petrol or anything like that. 7 airbags and Roof mounted AC are the only things that seem to be their talking point. Hyundai Verna too has a 6 airbag variant. So the USP of the Yaris is reliability? Like the Verna and the city do not have any!

[JonSnow]

Originally Posted by motorworks

You can check Indonesia or any other other Asian markets or even the US, they offer more engine options everywhere.

Even if they have more engine options, they are hardly known to be exciting. Read any review from other countries and Toyotas are generally described as boring to drive. They still manage to sell better because the majority of buyers are interested in something reliable and fuss-free rather than seeking excitement.

Besides, the 1.5 L engine in Etios has good reviews here. So even if the Yaris does not have the most powerful engine in its class, it will likely be pretty good. Honda's reliability seems to have suffered a bit in recent years looking at the the issues reported on team-bhp. If I was a buyer, I would lean towards reliability with a slightly less powerful but good enough engine, since i would never stretch the engine to its max potential anyway.

[jaganpec2002]

Originally Posted by motorworks

Did not quite get what you are trying to convey.

My point is simple, why cannot Toyota provide better engine options? Why do they restrict engine options to the Indian market and yet charge a premium? The corolla sells at 21-25 Lakhs and yet the engine that powers it is bettered by cars 1-2 segments lower. And yet the corolla is not cheaper than say an Elantra or an Octavia!

I may have misunderstood what you meant. By better engines, I thought exciting engines. And yet Corolla is topping the charts without better engine options, right? Why would they try to fix something that is not broken?

And you say engine / Gearbox combinations are blown out of proportion? Then why should Hyundai offer at least 2-3 engine options for Verna, Creta and plus manual / auto combinations for each of them? And why would VW stretch themselves to offer such a long list of engine gearbox options? May be they understand something that you do not? And although small, there are people who want such engines and gearbox combinations. One of the VW dealers mentioned that almost 20-30% or all polos sold are the GT TSi version, at least in urban markets.

Isn't Elantra even though a segment higher offering the same engine like Verna (diesel)? VW with so many options how many are they selling? It has been mentioned in our forum by someone that the main reason GT TSi is selling that many(30% of 1000) because it comes with an AUTO gearbox. I don't disagree with his point. Scross came up with 1.6L, 6 gear option and received huge praise everywhere. But how many did it sell? They just came up with 1.3L with the facelift and it is selling a decent 3K+ units with just a single diesel engine. (meaning initial pricing fiasco is not the main reason for the failure of 1.6).

Now Toyota not able to produce enough to meet the demands of Innova and Fortuner. Top of the segment with Corolla.
And failure with Etios/Liva - failed because of lack of engine options or bland interiors that people didn't expect from them? Isn't Liva petrol praised as hot hatch when it was released? So going by your own argument, Maybe they understand something that you do not?

The thing is Toyota wants you to take what they offer, at least in India. And they want to charge a premium for their reliability. I would rather spend a little less upfront, get a Hyundai or even a Honda with better engine, gearbox option and happily part way with the car 6-7 years later.

You can go and get it, so can anyone. There no mandate thay you have to get Toyota. But why would you want Toyota to change when they have enough buyers for what they sell? Why you want every manufacturer to offer everything? And their Etios failure is definitely not because of lack of engine options, right?

And I said this whole reliability thing is blown out of proportion because most examples here point out cabbies driving the Etios for a few lakh kilometers. Did they not do the same with the Logan? I have personally seen Logans with 4-6 lakh kms and the cabbies too vouched for their low cost maintenance. Sure, Toyota may be better here in terms of longevity, but if you compare something like a Logan and Etios, there is not a huge difference in terms of reliability or cost of maintenance.

Ask any cabbie, if they can get a used Etios for cheap? Our regular taxi guy tried a lot to buy an Etios but finally got Dzire because Etios is expensive in the used car market. And we all know the legendary status of Innova in the used car market. Maybe people blindly bought a new car but why would they have so much demand in the used car market if every car is as reliable as a Toyota?

No offence to Toyota fans and people who want to own one for generations, my only grouse is that Toyota in India seems to have a take it or leave it attitude with their premium pricing and limited engine options. Which by the way is not something they do in other markets. You can check Indonesia or any other other Asian markets or even the US, they offer more engine options everywhere.

I am not a Toyota fan. I am making few observations based on what I have read and seen. If you google about Camry and Accord in US, Accord wins in almost all the parameters and most significantly, the engine. But have a look at the issues faced by the dealers with more supply than demand. Which car is it? You guessed it right, it is the Accord. Why Camry enjoys huge success over Accord? Main Reason: Reliability .

And that is where my point is with the Yaris. Toyota comes to the C segment party late, yet with no clear distinction. No Turbo petrol or anything like that. 7 airbags and Roof mounted AC are the only things that seem to be their talking point. Hyundai Verna too has a 6 airbag variant. So the USP of the Yaris is reliability? Like the Verna and the city do not have any!

What is the USP of Verna or City over Yaris now? Engines? As I said earlier engines and gearbox options are blown out of proportion. People choose reliability. Nobody cares that much about the engine in India except maybe our forum. When it comes to reliability or engines? People choose reliability. Before you say City and Verna are reliable too, my answer is, Toyota has an engine too .

[headbanger]

Originally Posted by motorworks

I think this whole reliability thing is being blown out of proportion.

And so is everything for any other brand - why single out Toyota. "Cheap" for Maruti, "Brand Value" For Honda, "Expensive to maintain" for Ford.

Originally Posted by motorworks

An average Petrol sedan user may end up doing about 50-70K in a span of about 5-7 years at the maximum. And most cars today from Hyundai or Honda or Ford can carry off this without any hassle. Sure some of them have some niggles etc but nothing far fetched. And if you keep only the Asians in the fight then Hyundai and Honda will do just as good as a Toyota.

Agreed. But our own forum members who have owned Toyota along with another cars in past/present share that Toyota's are better in comparison when it comes to maintenance in the long run. There are highly detailed reviews within our forums from members like amalji, Samba which speaks volumes of the faith that they have in Toyota.

Originally Posted by motorworks

Outliving the period of registration or even the owner, well that is just good talk but not practical to say the least.

Might not be true for everybody out there. I am out for a car which I can live with the next decade and security + reliability is the top criterion. If it is extremely FTD, its a bonus.

Originally Posted by motorworks

The thing with a Toyota is that they offer nothing exciting, in terms of engine or gear box options. Hyundai and Honda have been offering top of the class powerful engines for over a decade now. So why should Toyota not do that? Would the reliability then come down by few years?

Ultimately, it's the market demand which they cater to. Hyundai feels the need of multiple engines to create its USP and keep itself in the market, Toyota doesn't. You don't expect every batsman to turn into "Viru" mode.

Toyota went greedy with Etios and market showed them their way. There are different segments within the market which are catered by different manufacturers. Toyota caters to a segment which prefers reliability + low maintenance costs + fundamental comforts (space, security) to the other extremes which might be served by likes of Skoda/VW (latest tech, more engine options). May be as we move ahead in next 5 years, more people demand performance oriented engines/gearboxes from Toyota to keep it relevant in market- may be reliability is where Toyota continues to trump other manufacturers. But as of today, till pricing for Yaris is out, the car seems to tick more rights than wrongs.

[motorworks]

Originally Posted by jaganpec2002

I may have misunderstood what you meant. By better engines, I thought exciting engines. And yet Corolla is topping the charts without better engine options, right? Why would they try to fix something that is not broken?







Isn't Elantra even though a segment higher offering the same engine like Verna (diesel)? VW with so many options how many are they selling? It has been mentioned in our forum by someone that the main reason GT TSi is selling that many(30% of 1000) because it comes with an AUTO gearbox. I don't disagree with his point. Scross came up with 1.6L, 6 gear option and received huge praise everywhere. But how many did it sell? They just came up with 1.3L with the facelift and it is selling a decent 3K+ units with just a single diesel engine. (meaning initial pricing fiasco is not the main reason for the failure of 1.6).



Now Toyota not able to produce enough to meet the demands of Innova and Fortuner. Top of the segment with Corolla.

And failure with Etios/Liva - failed because of lack of engine options or bland interiors that people didn't expect from them? Isn't Liva petrol praised as hot hatch when it was released? So going by your own argument, Maybe they understand something that you do







What is the USP of Verna or City over Yaris now? Engines? As I said earlier engines and gearbox options are blown out of proportion. People choose reliability. Nobody cares that much about the engine in India except maybe our forum. When it comes to reliability or engines? People choose reliability. Before you say City and Verna are reliable too, my answer is, Toyota has an engine too .

Well, without deviating too much off the topic and also trying to keep my answers crisp and short:-

Corolla is no big market leader. That segment itself is very small and if you see the numbers you will notice that the Corolla is less than 800 units a month and the others like Octavia are around 400-500. So nothing big to read there.


Agreed on the Innova and the fortuner. Clear market leaders, no doubt.

Ok, so the USP of the Verna? Its Diesel engine and plus auto box combinations. And it starts at less than 10L. And the city so far has held the mantle for the best petrol engine and best auto box in that segment. If you ask anyone today you will be most likely met with this answer, if its diesel its the Verna and if its petrol its the city. So that my friend is their USP, when people even in India recognise a car by the engine it offers. And its very true even if you look at the used car market today. Verna diesels and City petrols hold their value well.

Coming back to the Yaris, lets hope that the car has a better trick up its sleeve rather than just the Toyota brand and being a neutral reliable car. Because Indians today perceive the city, Ciaz as just that. Neutral and reliable.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by headbanger

Toyota went greedy with Etios and market showed them their way.

more people demand performance oriented engines/gearboxes from Toyota

I believe that Etios did not succeed in the private market because of not having enough of a feel good factor inside. Even the same interior design with use of better materials would have helped. And a few bells/whistles. Indians want cheap cars that do not feel cheap.

And now, more than performance, the Etios/Liva lose for not having an autobox - there is little to fault with the performance, especially from the 1.5 petrol.

As to the Corolla, I think it is far too expensive in relative terms to other cars that cater to its buyer profile.

[roy_libran]

No way, for me personally!

The latest Verna is an excellent well-rounded product (perhaps the very first time I am saying this of a Hyundai vehicle). The City is a long standing proven product with it's own loyal following, which is to an extent well deserved.
The Yaris, when I saw it at the Expo, seemed like yet another iteration of the Etios saga to me. Bland design, boring interiors, average look and feel inside... Couldn't hold my attention for more than 10 minutes. Contrast that with Kia, whose podium I visited thrice, to see their product line up again and again.

[jetsetgo08]

Will have to wait till the prices are announced, to know who gate-crashed whose honeymoon. Knowing Toyota, the top version might be priced just a shade lower than a mid variant D-segment sedan(Elantra/Altis/Octavia).