[itsashishsharma]

Originally Posted by 5kmiles

Creta is hatchback on stilts. Not an SUV by any stretch of the imagination. Wondering how people are comparing an i20 hatchback platform with LR world-class SUV platform?

Interiors of Creta are definitely worse off than Harrier. At least in pics, Harrier's color palette and materials exude class all around. Equipment is top notch too. XZ+ will come out soon to plug the gaps. I am expecting a pricing surprise from Tata.

Haven't seen the latest one in detail but those headlights and taillights on the Creta are age-old by 2019 standards. Looked inadequate when it was launched and remains more or less the same today.

Creta is not a patch on Harrier other than being priced obscenely and atrociously high.

Thanks for calling out what is what. The only reason there is a Harrier vs Creta comparison is because the Creta is indeed priced way above what it should have been priced at. Be it the chassis, suspension, the engine, size, looks, space inside, interiors design and quality or driving fun, the Harrier beats the Creta outright. Creta is an i20 on stilts. In fact at double the price, I don't see many reasons to get the Creta and not the i20 for what these cars really offer. Essentially, it's just about brand perception IMO. You exchange the logos on these two cars and I bet not even 1 Creta will get sold with a Tata badge.

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

Suddenly most in Team-bhp has become 4WD enthusiasts who are hardcore off-road enthusiasts! Tata Storme sales barely touches 500 every month, even with a 4x4! I have to doubt that the real intention is not the unavailability of 4WD, but wanting to find a reason to bash Tata motors. How many of the 4WD owners use it for serious off roading , other than using it for bragging. I have a cousin who is into serious off-roading stuff and 99% of us won’t even dare to take our vehicles into such territories.

Heck I have many colleagues and friends who own Fortuner and Endeavour 4x4 which have never seen anything other than tarmac! When you ask them, why did you buy a 4WD, the response is, it helps to travel in broken roads!!! Really? I have driven across most type of roads and I’m yet to find a broken road that needs a 4WD. Let’s not bring in Monocoque vs Ladder on frame discussions.

The bashing has become too much, now leave the substandard Harrier to ordinary mortals, who just need a pseudo SUV. Those who need proper 4WD , would have come to understand that Harrier is not for them, just get an XUV, Isuzu MU-X , Tata Storme... please instead of repeating the 4WD. I don’t know how many will be wanting a BMW like driver experience from Harrier now. Harrier isn’t going to satisfy the needs of everyone out there, period! Is it so difficult to accept? Move on guys, lets spare Tata.

Thank you sir for giving words to my thoughts. I see people saying an SUV has to have 4wd, some saying having no AT option will impact sales, and others saying no petrol option will. I don't know who are these potential buyers who need a petrol Harrier first of all. There is absolutely no sense in buying such a heavy vehicle with a petrol engine in India. Then who is going to take a 4wd Harrier to off-roading? Yes, there is certainly a market for an AT but then
1. I think to delay the launch just because the AT is not ready is not a good idea, so if the product is ready, it is OK to launch it sans the AT and indeed they will launch the AT as early as they can.
2. What percentage of the total sales will the AT contribute to? I am sure very less. So why bog down an excellent product for lack of an AT option. People who like the product will wait for the AT launch, if they can't, a very less percentage of prospective buyers will leave it for a much costlier Tucson or a much inferior Creta.
Only thing is, Tata should officially give a date or a time frame for the AT's launch.
Then there are a number of people missing a sunroof, I think Tata may give it as an accessory, just like with the Nexon where the customer can get it installed at the showroom before delivery.
Yes, the alloys look just a size smaller than preferable. It should have been 18" IMO. But then the tyres look menacing.
I think there would soon be an XZ+ variant with all these missing bits, it is not there at the time of launch, just to keep the sticker price in check.
If I was in the market for a big car, I would definitely go for the top end Harrier with all the safety features (as I don't want big alloys or a sunroof or a petrol or an AT or a 4wd) in white color and get the alloys painted in gloss black. Other than this, I would also cover the horn pad in dark grey leather as it will mask the ugly plastic that is being reported. I would also get noise insulation done from outside by professionals as it simply do wonders to any car's noise levels.

[Ooomph]

Am I the only one who felt the harrier is NOWHERE close to or Bigger than the XUV500 as far as front or passenger seating is concerned - most reviews are bragging about the Harrier being roomier than the XUV which is so NOT TRUE!

[condor]

Originally Posted by Ooomph

Am I the only one who felt the harrier is NOWHERE close to or Bigger than the XUV500 as far as front or passenger seating is concerned - most reviews are bragging about the Harrier being roomier than the XUV which is so NOT TRUE!

You should post your review ! Most of us have not seen it in the metal. Would be good to hear and know how it is.

[Durango Dude]

Problem is Kia Concept SP is waiting in the wings and may be the first offering from the fledgling auto maker Kia India. Kia is surely not going to leave any stone unturned at launch and would load it to the gills with features and an autobox is surely going to be there, may be that's why Hyundai is dragging it's leg in giving Tata the slush box. The Harrier and Kia look very similar and will have to slog it out in the market place, even though the Kia may appear a size smaller.

[damodar]

Harrier lights in action.

https://youtu.be/1y46HNL_6cA

[Ooomph]

Originally Posted by condor

You should post your review ! Most of us have not seen it in the metal. Would be good to hear and know how it is.

While I was short on time, the first impressions did not really move in favor of the car as there was no test drive or pricing info as yet which is needed to evaluate a car.

More than TATA running the demo booth, it was delegated to an event management company who made sure all looked good but few could speak about the car. They gave free caps and a brochure to all.

The front seating feels a bit cramped & the rear is similar in size to that of a Compass to our disappointment - basically we were hoping that it would be a lot more roomier (than the XUV 500) as per the reviews which of course wasn't the case.

Absence of an automatic gearbox (in most traffic heavy cities) and sunroof for some may seem to be a deal breaker as of now, unless the ride quality and pricing helps one decide otherwise.

Overall, you get that 'let's wait and watch once it is on road with real reviews" when you see a new car and this car did exactly that.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by itsashishsharma

In fact at double the price, I don't see many reasons to get the Creta and not the i20 for what these cars really offer. Essentially, it's just about brand perception IMO. You exchange the logos on these two cars and I bet not even 1 Creta will get sold with a Tata badge

Fair enough. But the remark about changing brand logos is rhetorical, ain't it? And with the brand logo it supports today and will continue to do so, there is nothing wrong in comparing it with the Harrier. No car is over-priced, unless voted so by the buyer's wallet, Creta at 17L or Innova at 25. People are buying Creta left, right and centre. And Harrier being a 5 seater, it would cater to the same buyer who is looking for a 5 seater SUV ( and yes Creta is an SUV in that regard).

I don't know who are these potential buyers who need a petrol Harrier first of all. There is absolutely no sense in buying such a heavy vehicle with a petrol engine in India. Then who is going to take a 4wd Harrier to off-roading? Yes, there is certainly a market for an AT but then
2. What percentage of the total sales will the AT contribute to? I am sure very less. So why bog down an excellent product for lack of an AT option. People who like the product will wait for the AT launch, if they can't, a very less percentage of prospective buyers will leave it for a much costlier Tucson or a much inferior Creta.

Petrol is the new flavour of the season. I would have gladly considered the Petrol. The money saved upfront combined with the NGT rulings, ensures that the running cost of the vehicle is going to work out the same in the end.

As far as the discussion on AT is concerned, a large number of buyers now prefer AT. Do refer to various posts on this thread and elsewhere on the Forum, where numbers are shared. IIRC, around 20-30% sales are for AT variants, more so as you go in the higher priced segments. Even for the humble MSIL portfolio, there was recently a news about them selling 5L AMT cars or something similar on those lines. Now would you call that a small number?
The problem is not the lack of AT at launch. It is that they allowed the perception that AT would be available right from the start that has created this disappointment.

Then there are a number of people missing a sunroof, I think Tata may give it as an accessory, just like with the Nexon where the customer can get it installed at the showroom before delivery.

For a luxury SUV, the days of a small puny manual sunroof is gone. The compass gets a panaromic sunroof. And so was also expected of the Harrier. The concept shown at Autoexpo also sported the same. The unit offered on the Nexon is a manual and really small and no way can match the larger set ups mentioned above. Also anything done at the dealership level is prone for lack of workmanship, rattles and long term unreliability as compared to a factory fitted unit.

[Sebring]

XUV width is 1.89 M, while harrier is 1.84 M. The door sills are really fat and makes you feel very secure. Harrier feels roomier as the door pads are slightly angled away, comfort levels are better than XUV (which we own). In XUV, ingress is a 'climb' whereas Harrier has got this absolutely spot on. You simply waft into the car.

Originally Posted by Ooomph

Am I the only one who felt the harrier is NOWHERE close to or Bigger than the XUV500

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Fair enough. But the remark about changing brand logos is rhetorical, ain't it? And with the brand logo it supports today and will continue to do so, there is nothing wrong in comparing it with the Harrier. No car is over-priced, unless voted so by the buyer's wallet, Creta at 17L or Innova at 25. People are buying Creta left, right and centre. And Harrier being a 5 seater, it would cater to the same buyer who is looking for a 5 seater SUV ( and yes Creta is an SUV in that regard).




Petrol is the new flavour of the season. I would have gladly considered the Petrol. The money saved upfront combined with the NGT rulings, ensures that the running cost of the vehicle is going to work out the same in the end.

Although I agree with all the points, I will only concentrate on two of them because I think they make most sense but is what in my opinion many people get wrong.

Rightly said about cars being overpriced. It is not what you and me thinks, it is about the market. From the manufacturers point of view, correct pricing of a product is what the market is willing to pay for it. Price it more than that, the demand is too low and your assembly lines are not full. Price it less, you will have a lot of demand which you can't cash in on because your assembly line is full and can't cater to the full demand. So manage the demand in a way that you get paid highest for each car and also ensure that you sell maximum possible. From Creta's numbers, I am sure Hyundai feels they priced it just right. No matter what we think!!

Ditto about petrol vehicle as well. Assuming diesel gives you a mileage of 15 and petrol only 10, and an initial price difference of 1.5 lakhs, one may need 40-50 k kms only to break even. This is assuming the petrol diesel differential remains at similar level.
So if we have good petrol engines available I don't see why there won't be a market for a petrol Harrier.

AT is a no brainer as well. But so much has been said that, I don't have anything new to add. In a segment where 30% sales go to AT, there should not be any debate on this!

[Strangerintown]

Originally Posted by Sebring

XUV width is 1.89 M, while harrier is 1.84 M.

Isn't the Harrier's width 1.894 M, and hence marginally wider than the XUV500?

One thing that the dimensions do not independently reveal is the leg space to seat hieght commparison. A car with a higher seat needs lesser leg space horizontally as you sit more upright and do not need to stretch your leg forward to be comfortable. Hence comparing horizontal leg space on its own does not always reveal the entire picture. Further taller seats willl usually ofer greater under thight support as well You would normally have slightly taller seats in taller vehicles. Do we have any dataa on the seat hieght of the XUV 500 vs the Harrier's?

[vipul_singh]

Originally Posted by itsashishsharma

I don't know who are these potential buyers who need a petrol Harrier first of all. There is absolutely no sense in buying such a heavy vehicle with a petrol engine in India.

There are those like me who think diesels are passé for personal use vehicles. Before I postponed plans to buy another vehicle, the Innova Crysta 2.7 petrol was a front-runner in my consideration set. I would buy a diesel as a compromise in case a very good car is available only with a diesel engine, or if the petrol has been deliberately neutered by the manufacturer. To me, diesels are something one puts up with as a 'majboori' (compulsion).

Diesels have had their day. They were popularized in the European market on the back of CO2 emissions (pushed by oil comanies looking for better financial returns on the Crude they refined), to the detriment of other pollutants, and are now falling out of favour for personal use, with European Governments now placing restrictions on their use. In India, the only real reason to favour diesels is fuel economy (understandable, given the state of economic development).

And I don't think BS6 diesels are the solution in India, either (for personal use). With urban congestion and low road speeds, I expect BS6 diesels to be problematic in the hands of a fair percentage of users, given that BS6 engines need to rely upon DPFs to meet the compliance requirements.

I hope that more buyers and manufacturers will see the light.

[nainan]

Originally Posted by Ooomph

More than TATA running the demo booth, it was delegated to an event management company who made sure all looked good but few could speak about the car. They gave free caps and a brochure to all.

I too noticed this. I personally was a tad disappointed not to see anyone from Tata Motors at the event. I have been hearing a lot of good things about their ASS now and the showrooms also have had a sea change in attitude. As a former owner one of my greatest disappointments with Tata is that their executives just do not want to talk to a customer.

I thought since this was the first time when "real interested customers" are meeting the brand would marketing executives not want to see reactions gauge perceptions and look at every way to ensure people come into their showrooms come January.

As for space to be honest all seats of the Harrier front and rear abound in it. I am 5'10" and built big. The seats have good thigh support too. I have sat in many XUVs and I feel the Harrier is much more comfortable. It just does not look as huge because of the height.

Lastly for some reason(I think timeline) they have launched a diesel without AT, sunroof and AWD. But there is no reason I could make out these cannot come in the future. But I wonder with the sort of interest Tata Motors marketing is showing will they ever even figure out what we as customers need/want or are they always going to rely on marketing research which anyway is not current and lose out on opportunity. I wish they were more transparent, accessible and visible. Delegates like event management companies and call centres can be used to handle the volumes but they will never be able to replace actual feet on the ground.

[Guna]

I had a chance to take a close look at the Harrier as part of the preview for the customers.
Here are my observations:

+ves:

• Cheerful looking car with good presence
• Spacious 5 seater (both for passengers and the luggage)
• Right height in my view (not too tall where you need to climb)

-Ves

• Interior design execution, attention to detail and fit and finish are average (I was particularly impressed with the interior quality of the Nexon and I was expecting much more from Harrier). It doesn't feel premium (Creta is in different league when it comes to sheer quality, fit and finish even without any pretensions like 'wooden' finish)
• Doesn't have a great all-round visibility like the XUV. High-set dashboard, rising window-lines, smallish rear windscreen, non existent rear quarter window, large side RVM which are bit too high(adding to forward blind spot)
• Not so comfortable seats (found them bit too high)
• Some ergonomic issues

Some highlights (mostly the areas of improvement from my perspective):

Pleasant and cheerful face yet aggressive enough


View of the screen from the driver seat. For a short driver, backlight coming from outside could affect the readability.


Notice that the lever is almost fouling with the handle. If you grab the lever in a wrong way, your fingers will get sandwiched


Hornpad is bulging a bit


This handle is not useful as the mesh underneath prevents you from putting your fingers around it


Slot in which the manual seat adjustment lever moves look crude


There is a gap which is apparently meant to allow wide objects (like magazine) But closing the gap would have made the door pocket feel less flimsy


Plastic piece below the handbrake looks flimsy and not well finished. Also, in order to release the handbrake, you need to lift the button under the handle but push down the leaver. This operation is not very intuitive


I would have preferred soft materials instead of hard, glossy plastic in such places.


Window line could have been little lower


Not a flat floor like in XUV500


Joints are not well finished




As it has been already pointed out, mirrors are mounted high and very large.


Clutch has long play. Made my ankle to strain in the high position


Some of the transitions are bit messy and they look like they have been done in a hurry. Highlighted section looks too wide and some useful floor area could have been saved. I am not sure if that is the width of the door itself.


I really like some space below the seats (XUV500 has it). Helps to change leg position during long drives.


This part felt flimsy and when you press it, the reflector gets separated a bit. It may be like this in other cars too


Place to keep the phone


Rear quarter window is non existent, makes it less airy


Rear visibility is poor


Hard, shiny plastic with somewhat sharp edges are not very pleasant to touch


From the rear seat, you can see the sheet metal colour. Does it happen with other cars also? Need to check.


Because of the shiny texture, black plastic doesn't appear really black


Protrusion due to the speakers below


This area of the floor was springy and went in by 2 inches when I pressed it with my leg

Uneven fitting


Panels gaps are not uniform


Leather treatment on the doors feel loose and wavy

Wooden finish looks average and doesn't look premium as in some other cars (new CRV for instance). I feel that the wooden finish should have been used in small bits. There is a soft touch plastic on top of the dashboard, which doesn't help. They should have used such soft material which come in contact with the body.


Overall, for me this car is 'work in progress'. I was anyway going to take back my refund as the variant I am looking for is still some time away. But now, I will also be very keen to see how they are going to fix some of the issues I have highlighted.

[GrammarNazi]

I was going through a few pics that my brother & I had taken on my phone during the event, and I he mentioned he didn't like the paint quality (this was unusual as we generally see that Tata uses fairly good paint quality - as seen in my Nano over the years as well as seen during the launch of Hexa). Anyway, he let the pics do the talking, so will I.

The edges on the bonnet :




Driver side door outer edge :


Driver side door - fender edge :


Anyway, this car definitely needs a 360° Camera, else as I said earlier, sitting inside it is infact going to be hard to judge the external dimensions of the car.

Originally Posted by Guna

...Overall, for me this car is 'work in progress'. I was anyway going to take back my refund as the variant I am looking for is still some time away. But now, I will also be very keen to see how they are going to fix some of the issues I have highlighted.

This AFAIK is production spec. Almost impossible to make changes now.

Its abit hard to make out in your pic, but you're quite right - its actually not the best leather wrapping job I have come across. My Linea has full leather treatment from Stanley, and I too noticed that, comparatively, the display car wasn't well done.

Anyway, before making up my mind I'm going to wait for the final launch & test drives to see & drive the car. The effort by Tata Motors deserves another fair chance IMO. Rest said, there are plenty plenty cars coming up in the year ahead.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

This AFAIK is production spec. Almost impossible to make changes now.

The effort by Tata Motors deserves another fair chance IMO. Rest said, there are plenty plenty cars coming up in the year ahead.

In my case, anyway I am going to wait for the AT, even a 7 seater if not AWD (which may never come) and during the subsequent iterations, they may carry out some refinements. Agree, their efforts deserves a fair chance.