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Old 21st November 2018, 19:44   #1561
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by prakash_ajp View Post
I was hoping you would tell me where the SIAM has put the Tuscon in their classification. I will assume for now that Creta and Tuscon that are 10L apart in terms of pricing are in the same segment (unless proven otherwise). That IMO, makes the whole SIAM classification thing a farce. On the other hand, I find our C2/D1/D2 segment much more palatable, which puts Creta in the same C2 segment as Duster/Brezza and groups Compass, Tusson and Tiguan together in D1. I expect the Harrier to fit right into this group.
Yes both Creta and Tucson are in the same classification because segmenting is based on length/body type of cars. You could also check the wiki pages of both of the vehicles where its clearly mentioned.

Even by our classification why would the 5 seat 4600 mm Harrier cost more than the 7 seat 4788 mm Hexa both by the same manufacturer in the same plant when the Hexa has more of everything an excellent automatic option and a competent 4 wheel drive option that the Harrier does not have. The Compass Tucson and Tiguan have failed on the numbers front and I have not seen the Tiguan being compared to the Harrier anywhere.

There is nothing to invest in localization here as the assembly line was first setup in India using LR tech robots and with 90% automation so actually savings on labour costs. Tata has not reported any losses being made on any vehicle being manufactured by them. Profit also is a function of numbers and not just price. I just fail to understand pricing something premium and then offering discounts when the numbers dont shore up.

Precisely if a manufacturer chooses not to fleece and offers the best bang for the money using all their advantages the sell volumes like Bajaj and RE making them number one in their respective segments in India. Tata lost the game so far due to mediocre product at good price or good product at premium price and even in that scenario the good price product sold more volumes and was not considered a failure so that works better.

Imagine what good product at good price could do.

Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs-oct2012carsalesfigurestatamahindra.jpg

Last edited by ampere : 23rd November 2018 at 07:09. Reason: fixed quote tag
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Old 21st November 2018, 20:02   #1562
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by nainan View Post

Even by our classification why would the 5 seat 4600 mm Harrier cost more than the 7 seat 4788 mm Hexa both by the same manufacturer in the same plant when the Hexa has more of everything an excellent automatic option and a competent 4 wheel drive option that the Harrier does not have.
There could be only one logical reasoning behind this, and I say this as a layman - the omega platform (harrier) is more expensive than the x2 (hexa) perhaps?

I could be completely off. Someone with internal knowledge can chime in.
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Old 21st November 2018, 21:19   #1563
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by nainan View Post
Even by our classification why would the 5 seat 4600 mm Harrier cost more than the 7 seat 4788 mm Hexa both by the same manufacturer in the same plant when the Hexa has more of everything an excellent automatic option and a competent 4 wheel drive option that the Harrier does not have. The Compass Tucson and Tiguan have failed on the numbers front and I have not seen the Tiguan being compared to the Harrier anywhere.
Before I say anything else, just to state where I stand with respect to pricing: I expect/want the Harrier to be priced similar or 1L more expensive than Hexa.

When Hexa was not doing well despite being an excellent value proposition, there was one reason everyone cited as the reason and I tend to agree with them: Hexa doesn't have the wow factor when looking from outside. Sure it has the best ride in class, auto transmission and 4x4, but let's face it, most potential customers won't have bothered to test drive it and/or won't be able to make out the difference between that transmission and an AMT and/or will never need a 4x4.

But the Harrier is a different story altogether. It looks like an SUV that everyone wants these days. You show him a car and tell him this is from the makers of JLR and he is sold on the car. The way I see it, the Harrier has no competition if priced between 14-19 ex-showroom price (except the XUV may be). Only trouble is, this is not where one can expect high volumes. I know you believe that Tata expects high volume here, but let's face it, no matter what they do, they can't sell more Harriers than Nexons.

And finally let's look at it from another angle with respect to the comparison with Creta and honestly ask ourselves. Let's say we get our wish and Harrier is priced similar to the Creta. And someone tells you that what you bought is in the same league as Creta (no offense to the Creta owners please) - would you be happy about it?
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Old 21st November 2018, 22:23   #1564
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by prakash_ajp View Post
Before I say anything else, just to state where I stand with respect to pricing: I expect/want the Harrier to be priced similar or 1L more expensive than Hexa.
My take on this is many fold:-
- The Hexa is an MUV with a reworked Aria reputation with the nearest competition being the Innova Crysta coming from the Innova pedigree
- Tata is recovering customer confidence so there is a hesitation in paying 20 big ones for a Tata

This translates to lesser footfalls in the showroom

- The manual which most people go for is sedate upto 1800 rpm coupled with the great weight, painfully long clutch throw and the notchy gearbox fails to excite drivers
- The awesome auto version is what sells most numbers
- The looks as you said do not excite

This translates to lesser sales

The Harrier as you said has a looks & JLR brand name advantage which Tata is using extensively. As for more Nexons if you look at Toyotas sales chart the sell 6 times more Innovas than Etios so an VFM Harrier can outsell the Nexon and the brand boost the Tata's get with the Harrier might even make the Nexon appealing to fence sitters.

The last question frankly I am not sure how to answer but then my preference is a sound well made vehicle value for money vehicle and I'd prefer not being one of the few owning it. Also I am looking for the 7 seater

Last edited by Aditya : 22nd November 2018 at 08:00. Reason: Trimming quoted text
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Old 21st November 2018, 23:24   #1565
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Interesting conversation regarding the Harrier versus Hexa. I believe that the Hexa has everything going for it, including the look, form and function. The only hesitation that common folks have is it's size. The trend is to go for much smaller sized SUV like the Creta. The sales trend reflects this as well. Also most people find the Hexa's hydraulic steering hard, the lock to lock turning, the turning radius and the large size makes families hesitate in buying the car. From my personal experience, the Hexa is the best SUV to buy in its price point, wrt to ride quality, fit and finish, interiors, autobox and general utility. Replacing the Hexa with a better SUV will mean looking at the luxury brands rather than overpriced pickup trucks like the Fortuner.
The Harrier may not eat into the Hexa sales. It is a full size smaller and people who love proper SUV may not love these jacked up hatches, no matter the landrover underpinning.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 00:43   #1566
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by nainan View Post
As for more Nexons if you look at Toyotas sales chart the sell 6 times more Innovas than Etios so an VFM Harrier can outsell the Nexon and the brand boost the Tata's get with the Harrier might even make the Nexon appealing to fence sitters.
ter
I think that is a flawed comparison. Pricier Innova sells more than the cheaper Etios because of completely different reasons. If you compare that way, do you think a 30 lakh Maruti will sell 6 times more than say swift or baleno?
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Old 22nd November 2018, 00:55   #1567
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
I think that is a flawed comparison. Pricier Innova sells more than the cheaper Etios because of completely different reasons. If you compare that way, do you think a 30 lakh Maruti will sell 6 times more than say swift or baleno?
Even the Fortuner sells better than the Etios in some months and there are many other examples in the Auto industry so merely because a car costs more than its smaller stablemate does not mean it will sell more or less. I have calculated based on Tatas press statements that they aim to sell between 5k to 10k Harriers a month(detailed calculations and references in a previous post). I feel a lesser price point on the Harrier is the only chance of them meeting that target. By no means is price the only consideration but it is one.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 00:58   #1568
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by nainan View Post
Even the Fortuner sells better than the Etios in some months and there are many other examples in the Auto industry so merely because a car costs more than its smaller stablemate does not mean it will sell more or less.
Well your comparison actually lends support to the thought that Tata can manage to beat the Nexon numbers with harrier despite pricing it high!!!

Last edited by ampere : 23rd November 2018 at 07:11. Reason: compacted quoted post
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Old 22nd November 2018, 15:59   #1569
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by prakash_ajp View Post

But the Harrier is a different story altogether. It looks like an SUV that everyone wants these days. You show him a car and tell him this is from the makers of JLR and he is sold on the car. The way I see it, the Harrier has no competition if priced between 14-19 ex-showroom price (except the XUV may be). Only trouble is, this is not where one can expect high volumes. I know you believe that Tata expects high volume here, but let's face it, no matter what they do, they can't sell more Harriers than Nexons.
Can't disagree with this line of thought, the Harrier is easily bigger than the Creta. Heck it is larger than the Compass too. As you rightly said, the volumes are not there for cars/SUV's in this segment, Compass barely manages 1K copies a month. I'm sure this is not where Tata wants to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prakash_ajp View Post
And finally let's look at it from another angle with respect to the comparison with Creta and honestly ask ourselves. Let's say we get our wish and Harrier is priced similar to the Creta. And someone tells you that what you bought is in the same league as Creta (no offense to the Creta owners please) - would you be happy about it?
Like this question, I thought about it too. AFAIK, I don't really care which segment the car is from or have any airs about it. If Tata can give me a product that tugs to my head and heart at the price that is near/equal to the Creta then, why not! More power to them. We all agree that Creta is massively overpriced for what it offers, but Hyundai can get away with it because that is the image/reputation Hyundai has created over a period of time. Perhaps, Tata too can aim for something similar. Launch the Harrier at a price point that is enticing and steadily ramp up the prices if the car is a market success.

EDIT: And that's my 1000th post...

Cheers

Last edited by hiren.mistry : 22nd November 2018 at 16:01.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 16:21   #1570
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Tata want to create a separate space for the Harrier and will not position this against the Creta. We can see that their marketing campaign has thus far revolved around aspects such as architecture, driving dynamics, durability and performance in harsh terrain / conditions.

The segment talk is largely irrelevant (e.g. this seats 5 but is bigger than even the CR-V but there are cheaper 7-seater 4WDs and smaller but more expensive 5-seater 2WDs etc.) - shoppers will of course compare this product to others in their shortlist and will decide based on how compelling the overall package is.

Someone in the know tells me this will be a "premium" product inside-out. They were confident that the features, unique strengths, quality of materials and fit / finish will measure up to the pricing.

It will be interesting to see how the market takes to it when it is launched.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 17:06   #1571
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Interior Teaser from Tata


Last edited by Gannu_1 : 23rd November 2018 at 13:14. Reason: Corrected the YouTube link. Thanks!
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Old 22nd November 2018, 20:04   #1572
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by uday.ere View Post
Interior Teaser from Tata
About time!! Quite like the 2 layers of trim - black and wood finish with the screen taking center stage. Grandeur is the theme of this video... so does that extend to the pricing?
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Old 22nd November 2018, 20:19   #1573
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

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Originally Posted by hiren.mistry View Post
Grandeur is the theme of this video... so does that extend to the pricing?
Hoping the Grandeur is limited to the interiors and not pricing
Pulling up the Autocar poll that is currently running on the Pricing 'Announced' by TML.

While this may not be reflective of the wider population, it does give an indication. Majority (nearly 63%) feel it is overpriced or Compass to be a better bet at a slight premium.

Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs-autocar-poll.jpg

Last edited by ampere : 23rd November 2018 at 07:13. Reason: fixed image format and insertion
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Old 22nd November 2018, 21:32   #1574
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by uday.ere View Post
Interior Teaser from Tata
Whichever is the creative agency employed by Tata, they certainly have flair for automobiles and know how to highlight the design character of the vehicle. Great job on the teasers.

Last edited by ampere : 23rd November 2018 at 07:12. Reason: removed video link from quoted post
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Old 23rd November 2018, 03:04   #1575
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re: Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by uday.ere View Post
Hoping the Grandeur is limited to the interiors and not pricing
Pulling up the Autocar poll that is currently running on the Pricing 'Announced' by TML.

While this may not be reflective of the wider population, it does give an indication. Majority (nearly 63%) feel it is overpriced or Compass to be a better bet at a slight premium.
This is an incredibly obtuse poll. The car is not yet launched, no one has seen it, touched it, felt it, drove it, how are you expected to make a judgement on the price? Its about the value proposition a product offers and not just the price per se.
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