[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by sreedotk

Saw this car on my way to the airport. Can’t identify the car but since Mahindra’s R&D is in chennai thought it might be the XUV 700

Resembles the Harrier more than Tivoli or S201

[prakash_ajp]

So, suddenly Jeep has become a reliable brand now? Nobody wants to preach anyone anything, but is it too much to expect to have a higher ratio of informative posts vs dreamy speculative posts? Too bad we can't measure and filter posts based on the usefulness in our forum.

Also, how can somebody say "Tata wants Creta volume". How do you know what they are thinking? Do we all think we are all better and more knowledgeable than them? It's not like Tata want their products to fail. Positioning a product in a crowded and strange market like ours is complicated and please acknowledge and respect that.

[JKBKS]

Another good way of looking at how market perceives and reacts to different brands is their monthly sales. Tata Hexa is a good case in point. Hexa, a well engineered and relatively newer product (with excellent interiors), is selling nearly 1/3rd of a comparably priced 8 year old design (XUV). And a smaller and pricier product (Jeep Compass) is selling nearly double of Hexa.

I remember seeing similar debates/posts (regarding pricing/positioning) when Hexa was launched. Some hype was also built then on how JLR technology and expertise will help Tata make Hexa a great product. And look where Hexa is now.

This shows that the market factors in brand reputation as well irrespective of how good a product is.

[nainan]

Originally Posted by prakash_ajp

Also, how can somebody say "Tata wants Creta volume". How do you know what they are thinking?

Positioning a product in a crowded and strange market like ours is complicated and please acknowledge and respect that.

I had thought I would cease this debate but looks like I am mis-understood so just want to clarify:-

Gearing up for a spectacular turnaround in the coming years

Turnaround 2.0

A new initiative named 'Turnaround 2.0' has been launched to capture additional market share and to make our CV and PV segment self-sustainable and more profitable.

New launches based on revamped platforms

New launches have made tremendous difference to our sales and it worked as an impetus to vie for the 3rd place in the Indian auto market. Looking ahead, we are slated to launch two new platforms at the start of 2019. The first is the advanced modular platform (AMP), which will act as the base for our newest set of hatchbacks and sedans. Two innovative architectures – the 'Optimal Modular Efficient Global Advanced' (OMEGA-ARC) and 'Agile Light Flexible Advanced' (ALFA-ARC) were also unveiled by us at the Auto Expo 2018, which will be used in the making of H5X and 45X respectively. At present, we account for only 60 per cent of the market today, but we know for sure that we are able to cover 95 per cent of the market by 2020.

Enhancing our Passenger Vehicle Product Portfolio to enrich our market presence

Tata Motors is regaining momentum in the passenger vehicle market by launching new products - Tiago Hatchback, Hexa SUV, Tigor Compact Sedan and Nexon Compact SUV, in the last 18 months. We plan on bringing newer products by 2020 in order to plant a flag in the Indian passenger vehicles market. With our mission of being among the top 3 in global commercial vehicle market, we aspire to become the largest car market in the country.

As you can see they are looking for volumes by 2020 on the new launches namely H5X and 45X. In the H5X case the nearest volume seller is the Creta(please see the car sales threads)

I respect and acknowledge Tata for their products and on their strategy. Hence I am expressing my inferences as a customer and they seem to be willing to listen. If you have a different opinion please say so. Lets avoid un-necessary conflict and if it helps you please do skip my posts.

[sreedotk]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

Resembles the Harrier more than Tivoli or S201

I did think of the Harrier but it looked longer and there was never an instance of TATA prototypes being seen in chennai. Coimbatore gets its fair share of Tata prototypes.

It’s surely not the Tivoli or its equivalent that is why I mentioned The rextons twin XUV 700.

It did not have any kind of registration on it to make an educated guess.

[prakash_ajp]

Originally Posted by nainan

I had thought I would cease this debate but looks like I am mis-understood so just want to clarify:-

As you can see they are looking for volumes by 2020 on the new launches namely H5X and 45X. In the H5X case the nearest volume seller is the Creta(please see the car sales threads)

Sorry, may be it's my eyes, but I don't see where they mentioned volumes of Creta. I don't even see where they mentioned Harrier will be in the same segment as Creta.

Do you think that people at Tata are fools that they don't see they are selling only half of what Creta is doing even with a product from a segment below (Nexon) but they want Creta volumes with a product from a segment above?

[nainan]

Originally Posted by prakash_ajp

Sorry, may be it's my eyes, but I don't see where they mentioned volumes of Creta. I don't even see where they mentioned Harrier will be in the same segment as Creta.

Do you think that people at Tata are fools that they don't see they are selling only half of what Creta is doing even with a product from a segment below (Nexon) but they want Creta volumes with a product from a segment above?

Here, by no less than Guenter Butschek the MD of Tata motors. Now either he is a 'fool' by your definition or you got your facts wrong. Now since we all have immense respect for Tata and its illustrious MD who has scripted this turnaround strategy I suggest you read posts you like and skip those you dont and take your own advice and have your posts based on some source material and cite the same.

Tata Q501 mid-size SUV to be launched by end of 2018

Tata Motors is working on a new mid-size SUV to take on the Hyundai Creta and Renault Captur. Guenter Butschek, MD, Tata Motors has told the media that the mid-size SUV (codenamed Q501) will be launched by the end of 2018.

Also according to popular classification both the Creta and the Compass are compact SUVs, the Nexon is a subcompact. If this is the classification being used then the Discovery Sport is a compact as well(luxury classification) so same segment and naturally the Harrier at 4575 mm is the same as well . All links available on the below page.

List of sport utility vehicles

I just hope to understand and share here and expect the same. If you are still not convinced maybe you dont want to get convinced so I will desist.
Please so sial down on the sarcasm as its unpleasant, unproductive and distracting

[discoverwild]

We have a recent post here where Overdrive has apparently quoted that the Harrier would be in the 9-12L bracket. Some have quoted 12-14L. We have discussions and guesses at 15-18L. So which is true? No one knows. One says FWD, another says AWD, another 4WD. Which is correct?

Tata was cautiously optimistic with the Nexon with an expected sales target of 3500 units. I said that the target was achievable because it amounted to roughly only 10 units per showroom per month. They are selling close to 5000 units now. The Tiago has slowly moved on from 4-5k levels to hit the 8-10k bracket. They launched the NRG a few days ago and are now confident of launching a sportier version next month. This is the way Tata would be approaching their sales for the Harrier too. Let's positively assume that they know how to go about their job.

Have the various spy pictures and videos revealed anything else there? 4WD capabilities, disc brakes all around, sunroof, tyre specifications, body roll, etc. These are worth discussing.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by discoverwild

We have a recent post here where Overdrive has apparently quoted that the Harrier would be in the 9-12L bracket.

Isn't that already Nexon price range? What is Overdrive's logic here?

[Inder7]

This is an interesting discussion and probably due the deliberate semi transparent cloak the TATAs have been keeping on this product. All those who saw the Harrier at the Expo know the excitement one felt. TATAs have a lot riding on this product. And if they do it right, with its dimensions, it has the potential to be the proverbial cat among the pigeons in the 15 - 25 L space. I remember the late 90s when Indica took the market by storm. And, remember, TATAs did not have the Range Rover technology then. I think we are heading for some exciting times ahead.

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by Guna

Isn't that already Nexon price range? What is Overdrive's logic here?

There is no logic and it's all speculation. Everyone is speculating what they want to see as the price.

Based on information so far, if the vehicle is as good as we all expect it to be, I would be happy to park my money on this at some point between Creta and Hexa.

[nainan]

Originally Posted by Guna

Isn't that already Nexon price range? What is Overdrive's logic here?

I believe they are talking about ex showroom price here. The Nexon Diesel covers a range from 7 to 10 from basic to the top end automatic.

I also have been doing some math:-

As per this interview to rediff :-

How Tata Motors turned around its passenger vehicle biz

Consistent sales performance of the Tiago and Tigor have made the Sanand plant reach optimal capacity.

“The challenge is in Pune,” he concedes, adding that the Harrier (the firm’s SUV that will go on sale in January) will take care of that.

The Pune plants capacity is 1000 cars per day as per:-

Tata Motors Manufacturing Facility - Pune

Tata Motors' passenger vehicles plant in Pune is one of the most advanced manufacturing facilities in India. With two flexible assembly lines, the plant has a capacity of producing 1,000 cars per day, working on a double shift. The facility has introduced many popular models like Indica, Indigo, Marina, Vista Manza, Zest, Bolt, and Nexon.

Guenter Butschek considers 65% normal utilization and 85% optimal.

Tata Motors charts detailed plans to change manufacturing footprint

“We would normally need atleast 65 percent. According to global standards 85 percent would be the dream of every CEO”, added Butschek.

At 65% utilization the Pune plant assuming it operates 20 days a month can manufacture 1000x20x0.65 = 13000 cars per month and at 85% utilization 17000 cars per month.

Tata sold 18420 cars in Aug 2018 of which if we remove the Tiago, Tigor and Nano which are built at the Sanand plant which is operating at full capacity we get 7487 cars built in Pune. So for the Harrier to be a moderate performer they would need sales of 13000-7487=5513 and for the Harrier to be a huge success it would need to sell 17000-7487=9513 cars.

This puts it right in Creta sales territory as in approximately 10000 units per month.

I know a lot of people would disagree however I request you to look at the math rather than sentiments on how else would they achieve their stated goal and explain an alternative math and I will be open to correction.

[shortbread]

How does one know if Tata has no immediate launches following the Harrier, also to be produced at Pune?

So how will production volumes be split then?

Considering the higher margins of the Harrier mean that volume benchmarks be very different from other product lines?

Can Tata create a segment for itself attracting people towards a more premium 5 seat SUV?

Are volumes dictated by domestic sales alone or exports as well?

If pure maths was what the auto industry worked on, people would be fine driving 5 seat marutis for most personal transportation requirements. Heck, the alto seats 5 and does significant volumes, why not price the Harrier at 5 Lacs and push plant utilisation to 150%?! Now that's some maths!

[nainan]

Originally Posted by shortbread

How does one know if Tata has no immediate launches following the Harrier, also to be produced at Pune?

Mayank Pareek, president of the passenger vehicle (PV) business at Tata Motors stated he expects the Pune plants under utilization will be solved by the Harrier. Looks like you did not go through the link.

So how will production volumes be split then?

My calculation is for 65%-85% utilization 20 days a month with two shifts. That leaves room for additional cars though Mayank has not specified any other car than the Harrier for utilizing the remaining capacity.

Considering the higher margins of the Harrier mean that volume benchmarks be very different from other product lines?

Isn't higher margins with no statement to that effect by Tata Motors on the pricing of the product or manufacturing cost speculation while the volume benchmarks based on Tata Motors statements in the public domain analysis?

Can Tata create a segment for itself attracting people towards a more premium 5 seat SUV?

They can and they will. It might even be the Harrier but IMHO they need to wait for model year 2 or 3 to launch the premium variants once they see the success in numbers they are looking for.

Are volumes dictated by domestic sales alone or exports as well?

No mention of exports yet. However I anticipate that this could happen at a later date.

If pure maths was what the auto industry worked on, people would be fine driving 5 seat marutis for most personal transportation requirements. Heck, the alto seats 5 and does significant volumes, why not price the Harrier at 5 Lacs and push plant utilisation to 150%?! Now that's some maths!

Yesterday you said I knew nothing of the product. So today when I show what Tata themselves have stated you again go on a tangent claiming the auto industry does not work on maths alone. You ask me to respects Tata's plan and when I show you what they say their plans are you say plans alone wont work and make nonsensical extrapolations.

So let me state the facts once again. Tata's have built a compact crossover SUV called the Harrier(same classification as the Discovery Sport and the H5X), the Creta(another compact crossover) is a competitor(according to Guenter Butschek the Tata Motors MD) and hence my assumption regarding its price. The Nexon and 5 seat marutis are subcompacts from a different segment and Guenter Butschek has again stated that they consider the Vitara Brezza as competitor to the Nexon. All this information and the sources are in the last few posts so you can choose to go over them.

I understand you have a different view and you do not want to think otherwise. So I will not make further attempts to engage in a creative dialog with you. I said before and will say again I am here to get more information, share my analysis and get a better understanding through creative discussions.

[nainan]

Tata Harrier Production Version To Be Unveiled Next Month

Five-seat Tata Harrier SUV will have its design largely influenced by H5X concept; to be powered by 140 hp producing 2.0-litre diesel engine Tata Motors will be debuting its all-new five-seater premium SUV called Harrier in the Indian market in January 2019. Ahead of its entry, the production version will likely be unveiled next month. The Tata Harrier is based on the OMEGA (Optimal Modular Efficient Global Advanced) architecture derived from Land Rover’s D8 platform that was responsible for one million SUVs worldwide. Developed in association with JLR, the platform has optimised bending and torsional stiffness helping in drivability on tarmac and rough roads, and we can expect specific driving modes as well. The auxiliary isolation panels are said to enable quiet and refined cabin while the crumple zones and use of advanced high strength steel should ensure high safety standards Tata is known for. Competing against the likes of Hyundai Creta, the Harrier will have a high ground clearance of more than 200 mm to complement its off-roading abilities. The Harrier will be powered by a Fiat-sourced 2.0-litre four-cylinder turbocharged Multijet II diesel engine found in the Jeep Compass. It will be good enough for 140 horsepower and probably 320 Nm peak torque. Tata will employ a six-speed manual transmission as standard while a six-speed torque converter automatic sourced from Hyundai could be used as an option in the top-spec variants. The engine could be tuned to return close to 18 or 19 kmpl. The Harrier will more likely be priced aggressively in the market at a range between Rs. 10 lakh and Rs. 15 lakh (ex-showroom). Compared to Hyundai Creta, it could offer longer wheelbase as spy pictures suggested over the last months, and the thick pillars meant it should be more spacious as well. The first model based on Impact Design 2.0 philosophy may provide class leading wheel sizes and driver centric dashboard as well. Excitingly, the production Harrier appears to carry over most of the muscular design traits seen on the H5X concept ensuring butch road presence and a sporty overall profile as the Land Rover Discovery. The interior will have a premium finish with features like a large touchscreen infotainment system, automatic climate control, reverse parking camera, Harman audio, etc.