[jassi_jeeper]

I beleive CNG vehicles are hybrids too. Maruti hasn't been getting subsidy on these. CNG should subsidy and the 95 crores can be adjusted there.

[jalajprakash]

http://dhi.nic.in/writereaddata/Uplo...FAME_India.pdf

Linking another pdf from a government website which defines the requirements to qualify under the FAME scheme.

(Page 27, Annexure 1) Mild Hybrid Electric Vehicle is defined as

"A 'Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV)' which has a 'Stop-Start' arrangement, 'Electric Regenerative Braking System' and a 'Motor Assist' (motor alone is not capable to propel the vehicle from a stationary condition)."

Now this is the least of requirements to even be considered under the schemes. To the best of my knowledge, Maruti had none of these systems in their 'SHVS' let alone all these technologies together as required under the scheme.

Now, 2 possible scenarios are,

a) Maruti lied to the testing centres (ARAI/ICAT etc) and then the testing centres didn't bother to actually test the vehicles, in which case there is fraud on the part of Maruti and negligence on the part of the testing authority.

b) Maruti sent a different model to the testing agency than what they sell to the public in which case there is fraud on the part of Maruti.

There could be something else as well but from what I can tell, the lawyer who started this case has done his due diligence. Maruti was not really exploiting an easy loop hole left open by the government.

As the old saying goes, "Daal me kuch kaala hai"

[ts1506]

Originally Posted by jalajprakash

http://dhi.nic.in/writereaddata/Uplo...FAME_India.pdf

Linking another pdf from a government website which defines the requirements to qualify under the FAME scheme.

(Page 27, Annexure 1) Mild Hybrid Electric Vehicle is defined as

Now this is the least of requirements to even be considered under the schemes. To the best of my knowledge, Maruti had none of these systems in their 'SHVS' let alone all these technologies together as required under the scheme.

Maruti's SHVS actually covers all 3 of the requirements.

It has Auto Start Stop system, Regenerative Braking and Torque Assist functions.

It truly is not a hybrid by any means, but going by the requirements put forward by the government, I highly doubt this case has any merit. The rules were put, Maruti got the subsidy, now the rules have been changed, end of story.

[jalajprakash]

Originally Posted by ts1506

Maruti's SHVS actually covers all 3 of the requirements.

It has Auto Start Stop system, Regenerative Braking and Torque Assist functions.

It truly is not a hybrid by any means, but going by the requirements put forward by the government, I highly doubt this case has any merit. The rules were put, Maruti got the subsidy, now the rules have been changed, end of story.

Aah, my fault then. I was not aware that the SHVS system actually had Regen braking and torque assist. When I visited the Nexa showroom to look at cars for my grandparents, the Advisor there only told me about the integrated starter motor, which didn't make much sense when missing the "Generator" from the name.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by ts1506

Maruti's SHVS actually covers all 3 of the requirements.
It has Auto Start Stop system, Regenerative Braking and Torque Assist functions.

This is where things get tricky. The SHVS system that Suzuki offers abroad has all these things. In India, what they offer is a system where the alternator is coupled with a clutch, which is supposed to trickle charge the car's battery using the engine's momentum when you lift off the A pedal. How much % of the battery is charged by this system (50% or 5% or 0.5%) is anyone's guess. Their claim of the starter motor providing torque assist to the engine also seems a bit far fetched. To the best of my knowledge, their international SHVS system has a dedicated motor for this purpose, and it is much bigger than the starter motor.

A motor providing torque assist to an IC engine is like the Pwr mode of the Toyota Camry Hybrid. We know how much tech is crammed into that car to make this possible. All Maruti Suzuki is offering in the name of SHVS is basically a trick alternator.

So, as per the criteria

1. Auto start stop - Yes.
That it is totally useless in Indian conditions is a different issue altogether.
2. Regenerative braking - Yes
How much was regenerated, if at all, only Maruti knows
3. Torque assist - Perhaps
Most debatable and controversial part.

Originally Posted by jalajprakash

Aah, my fault then. I was not aware that the SHVS system actually had Regen braking and torque assist. When I visited the Nexa showroom to look at cars for my grandparents, the Advisor there only told me about the integrated starter motor, which didn't make much sense when missing the "Generator" from the name.

Your sales advisor was basically telling the truth.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

1. Auto start stop - Yes.
That it is totally useless in Indian conditions is a different issue altogether.

Your sales advisor was basically telling the truth.

Just wondering why you think the start stop function is useless in Indian conditions ?

I have a Ciaz Alpha Hybrid and I find the function very useful. It turns the car off when I stop at all traffic lights and on again as soon as I press the clutch. If the AC is on it turns the car back on if the compressor is required when the car starts to heat up. I get 18-20km/l+ in City traffic and I drive don't drive for mileage at all.

[ts1506]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

This is where things get tricky.

3. Torque assist - Perhaps
Most debatable and controversial part.

AFAIK, in Maruti speak, the Torque Assist is basically the removal of the Alternator's load from the Engine. Since that duty is offloaded to the ISG In reality, its probably a difference of 1 or 2HP in pure speak.

Since the government says motor assist which is incapable of propelling car from standstill, I guess it does qualify.

About the international systems, if I am not wrong, Suzuki's proper hybrids like the Swift Hybrid is also branded as Smart Hybrid. And the other SHVS models like Baleno and Ignis SHVS use the same half-baked thing like the Indian cars. See the attachment for explanation of the Baleno SHVS.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Just wondering why you think the start stop function is useless in Indian conditions ?

I have a Ciaz Alpha Hybrid and I find the function very useful. It turns the car off when I stop at all traffic lights and on again as soon as I press the clutch. If the AC is on it turns the car back on if the compressor is required when the car starts to heat up. I get 18-20km/l+ in City traffic and I drive don't drive for mileage at all.

It is intrusive. It is additional wear and tear of the starter motor. Most importantly, the AC compressor shuts down every time the engine is off.

It's not just me. There is a poll on this very forum, where an overwhelming majority feel that auto start stop is a sheer nuisance.

I drive a diesel City. FAT tires, low pressures and my aggressive driving style. I also get around 18kmpl+ with no auto start stop.
.

Originally Posted by ts1506

Since the government says motor assist which is incapable of propelling car from standstill, I guess it does qualify.

About the international systems, if I am not wrong, Suzuki's proper hybrids like the Swift Hybrid is also branded as Smart Hybrid. And the other SHVS models like Baleno and Ignis SHVS use the same half-baked thing like the Indian cars. See the attachment for explanation of the Baleno SHVS.

The wording of the rule is the root of the problem. Ignorance or connivance, you decide.

The attachment clearly mentions that the SHVS in the international Baleno gets an additional dedicated lithium ion battery, which forms the heart of the system as explained therein. This lithium ion battery is conveniently omitted from the Indian SHVS. Whether the ISG is the same is anyone's guess.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

It is intrusive. It is additional wear and tear of the starter motor. Most importantly, the AC compressor shuts down every time the engine is off.

It's not just me. There is a poll on this very forum, where an overwhelming majority feel that auto start stop is a sheer nuisance.

I drive a diesel City. FAT tires, low pressures and my aggressive driving style. I also get around 18kmpl+ with no auto start stop.
.

Maruti would have taken the additional wear and tear of the associated parts into consideration and have done extensive testing.

I didn't know a team-bhp forum survey consisting of a few hundred auto enthusiasts is representative of the population of automobile users in India

I thought we were talking about the Maruti Ciaz and the improvement in mileage due to SVHS:

With an ARAI claimed figure of 26.2kmpl the older Ciaz was pretty efficient too.

Returning an ARAI claimed 28kmpl, the Ciaz SHVS now widens the gap making it the most efficient car in its class by quite a margin.

https://www.zigwheels.com/reviews-ad...-review/23278/

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Maruti would have taken the additional wear and tear of the associated parts into consideration and have done extensive testing.

I didn't know a team-bhp forum survey consisting of a few hundred auto enthusiasts is representative of the population of automobile users in India

I thought we were talking about the Maruti Ciaz and the improvement in mileage due to SVHS:

With an ARAI claimed figure of 26.2kmpl the older Ciaz was pretty efficient too.

Returning an ARAI claimed 28kmpl, the Ciaz SHVS now widens the gap making it the most efficient car in its class by quite a margin.

There is no denying that the diesel Ciaz is pretty fuel efficient. The high figure in ARAI tests is purely indicative and is a result of multiple factors like low weight, tire width, tire pressure, gearing, engine map and low viscosity engine oil. All these things have their own trade offs. And then, the most important aspect that influences actual FE is driving style. In real world conditions, cars like City and Baleno and Aspire are more or less equally efficient.

I will not take any claim by any auto maker at face value, and certainly not by Maruti. This is a company which sells cost cut, underspecced, watered down versions of its own international products in its biggest and most important market. This is not a claim, this is a proven and well established fact. SHVS is a similar case wherein 1. It is not a hybrid in any sense of the word. and 2. What is passed as SHVS in India is different from their actual SHVS tech.

Basically, it was marketing genius lapped up by a gullible, immature and trusting market. Maruti's timing was perfect- this happened at a time when perhaps for the first time ever, air pollution had caught the collective frenzy of the entire nation and the word hybrid had become synonymous with green. Mahindra had been selling 'Micro Hybrid' Scorpios for quite some time before. But Maruti's sheer scale and reputation took things to a different level.

[volkman10]

NGT refuses to entertain plea seeking refund of subsidy given to Maruti's mild hybrids.

the relief sought in the plea does not involve any substantial issue related to the environment and therefore cannot be heard.

Link

[vinit.merchant]

Originally Posted by volkman10

NGT refuses to entertain plea seeking refund of subsidy given to Maruti's mild hybrids.

Yep.
As it usually happens in such cases. Logic is irrelevant.
Since it has nothing to do with the environment, case closed. As if it had everything to do with environment when it was applied for exemption.

Reminds me of the case filed against SBI by a woman, who had given her card to the husband to withdraw and the money never came out of the machine.
Husband was not supposed to use the card. Case closed.
Doesn't matter if the bank is supposed to keep/forfeit the money belonging to the client that got deducted but never paid to the client.