Team-BHP > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 5th April 2018, 00:58   #76
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 6,041
Thanked: 25,466 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
Suspensions will harden with time, wont improve. Regarding these two cars you have mentioned, it would also depend on how these two specific cars have been used.

Actually, I think it is the other way, it gets softer, but I agree it never improves over time.

Shock absorbers don't get stiffer over time, they become less stiff and start to dampen less to the point where they don't dampen at all. Think about the oldest trick in the book on testing shocks; push on a corner of the car and see how it bounces or is dampened in one smooth movement.

All rubber components in the suspension degrade over time and that usually means more play or at least less rigidity.
Springs is the same thing, they can weaken over time.

So in general when suspension wears it tends to soften up, or at least get more wobbly and less rigid than when new.

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   (9) Thanks
Old 9th April 2018, 15:15   #77
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 29
Thanked: 28 Times
Default Re: Why does ride quality suck in so many luxury cars?

the way I see it, our roads are getting better, average speed on highways is only increasing every year. People buying luxury cars use it mostly for highway drives, city drives too are mostly in posher areas with decent roads (assuming most sales of luxury cars are in tier I cities). So harsh rides on broken roads is looked over in favour of above said factors. In the end, you justify a 50+ lakh purchase by boasting about its top speed, luxurious interiors - even if it means secretly dreading the ride over that long flyover with expansion joints every 10 meters.
Comparison with likes of landcruiser isn't fair - price tag alone doesn't slot a vehicle in luxury segment, customer positioning, technology, quality of interiors etc. differentiate a car from average. A Maserati owner friend cribbed about how is Bluetooth almost never connects first time, visibility over the curved bonnet isn't that great either - its a luxury car nonetheless. So a high priced luxury badge doesn't mean flawless, perfect car.
Hard suspension isn't just for cornering but even to minimize wallowing on straight highways at high speed - a feature certainly desired in 250+ bhp luxury cars expected to do speeds closer to 200 kmph to justify its price tag. To clarify, my Santro, Honda City, VW Vento, VW Tiguan and a Merc GLE (in extended family) - all can do 100+ on highways, but the confidence with which I will take these cars to 100+ is what justifies the price paid for each (along with other subjective factors).
vidyabhushan is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 23rd May 2018, 11:30   #78
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 60,144
Thanked: 192,821 Times
Default Re: Audi Q5 vs Mercedes GLE vs others

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
What's with the luxury car makers? Aren't these two parameters supposed to be basics of a luxury car?
Smartie, remembered your this thread after reading Turbanator's post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Unfortunately, One Crore won't be enough if you are looking for a substantial upgrade and want a decent ride in the rear.
If I have 10 lakhs in my pocket, I can go buy a Duster and enjoy its mind-boggling, absorbent, cushiony ride on any sort of road. But if I have 10X that amount, I can't get ride comfort? In a country where ride quality is so important due to our poor roads?

Luxury car makers have gone mad.
GTO is offline   (17) Thanks
Old 23rd May 2018, 12:32   #79
Team-BHP Support
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14,091
Thanked: 20,786 Times
Default Re: Audi Q5 vs Mercedes GLE vs others

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post


If I have 10 lakhs in my pocket, I can go buy a Duster and enjoy its mind-boggling, absorbent, cushiony ride on any sort of road. But if I have 10X that amount, I can't get ride comfort? In a country where ride quality is so important due to our poor roads?

Luxury car makers have gone mad.
For decent ride quality, you'll need to pay 20X and buy the Lexus LX570
ajmat is offline   (12) Thanks
Old 23rd May 2018, 13:39   #80
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Back to Chndgrh
Posts: 4,151
Thanked: 12,739 Times
Default Re: Audi Q5 vs Mercedes GLE vs others

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
If I have 10 lakhs in my pocket, I can go buy a Duster and enjoy its mind-boggling, absorbent, cushiony ride on any sort of road. But if I have 10X that amount, I can't get ride comfort? In a country where ride quality is so important due to our poor roads?

Luxury car makers have gone mad.
I will say a combination of few things, expectations of someone buying a 10-20 Lac will be very different from someone spending 1 Crore. Sadly, none of the car manufacturers has produced or adapted a luxury SUV / MUV specifically for the Indian market yet. Toyota is one company which could have done so good had they started assembly of Prado. They could have easily got 3 digit monthly sales even if they had priced at 60-65 Lac.

Generally, 4 seater variants offer a good ride/ comfort in the rear, Volvo is the only company to give this option but they give 4 seaters only with Hybrid and that takes the price to 1,4 Cr Plus. Wonder how difficult is to add a 4 Seater option to Fortuner or even an X5? Hope BMW does come out with an executive rear seat option on the X7.

Yes, LC & LX are both comfortable in the rear but still, nothing beats the sofa type sitting of an Innova. Maybe someone can come with a better suspension for Innova, until such time we can only crib
Turbanator is online now   (10) Thanks
Old 23rd May 2018, 21:44   #81
Distinguished - BHPian
 
dark.knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Beans Town
Posts: 1,781
Thanked: 7,414 Times
Default Re: Audi Q5 vs Mercedes GLE vs others

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
If I have 10 lakhs in my pocket, I can go buy a Duster and enjoy its mind-boggling, absorbent, cushiony ride on any sort of road. But if I have 10X that amount, I can't get ride comfort? In a country where ride quality is so important due to our poor roads?

Luxury car makers have gone mad.
Ah my favorite topic again, nothing quite beats the joy of being able to waft and float over bad roads, abraded bitumen, potholes, minor stones, cable pits, potholes, concrete surfaces etc.. the muted noises such as thuds and roars the tyres make whist absorbing the full force of the hellish paths we take makes it much more fun.. it shows just how much a car can protect you and care for your back/spine. A good car can make you forget the worries of handling such obstacles and the Duster and Fiat Punto/Linea are 3 cars built for such occasions whist conforming to the sub 10L price ex-showroom.

As for the rest I say again that certain changes to almost any car can make a world of a difference to ride quality and such changes shall end up costing well under 50k over the long run. First up are tyres > high-end Michelins, Continentals, Pirellis or Hankooks with silica gel infused linings can make a world of a difference in absorbing shock, roughness and infuse much more confidence when braking. A 185/195 spec should cost Rs.6k roughly per tire before exchange, assuming minimum life of 30K kms as compared to 45-50k for intermediate/hard compound tyres, you're paying a small difference for a world of comfort - the reason most people buy cars to begin with. Secondly if the alloys are overly light and hollow it can give birth to increased resonance and recoil, steel wheels are considerably quieter and aid comfort due to increased weight. For India and cars below 10L ex-showroom, the sound-deadening and weight wont be optimum and a 70 sidewall height is absolutely necessary for superb comfort. The third and final addition can be seat-covers with added 2 mm of cushioning, this cushioning is best used in cars with excessively hard seats like in most European cars (Jetta, Yeti and first E90 3 Series come to mind) and even 2 mm might be able to make a world of a difference in ride and comfort. Won't be possible if the car has 6 airbags though.

Sporty aesthetics or comfort.. I guess the limitation does exist, can have one but not both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Yes, LC & LX are both comfortable in the rear but still, nothing beats the sofa type sitting of an Innova. Maybe someone can come with a better suspension for Innova, until such time we can only crib
The Crysta Innova has a very bumpy ride, yes the suspension sure isnt outright comfortable. For short distances I found the Dzire Tour (seats you can sink into), Duster, Tata Zest and Bolt as great cars as far as my Uber experiences went. Tata Aria has been praised for the same as well, though I've not personally experienced it. Quite a few cars out there in the affordable range that can match the comfort of cars twice their price if not more.

Last edited by dark.knight : 23rd May 2018 at 21:48.
dark.knight is offline   (6) Thanks
Old 23rd May 2018, 23:28   #82
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: coimbatore
Posts: 23
Thanked: 14 Times
Default Re: Why does ride quality suck in so many luxury cars?

I miss the silence , exemplary handling of my Old Maruti Baleno . My present ride Vento tsi auto, is thuddy(word reserved of Vento suspension), poor cabin insulation, sometimes I turn around startled , thinking that the window is down , as can hear a couple talking on a two wheeler near by, and the creaking of the door when I take a slow turn on ramps. My uncles BMW 3 series, is nowhere as comfortable on the road as his Verna!
The Ford fiesta (old) had lovely handling and a pretty silent cabin. Is the industry giving us flimsier vehicles, marketing them as structurally more rigid, with high strength steel and other gyan?

Going to take a test ride of the new Octavia and Elantra , keeping the above points in mind
daniel990 is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 24th May 2018, 06:42   #83
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Hayek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bombay
Posts: 1,260
Thanked: 6,947 Times
Default Re: Why does ride quality suck in so many luxury cars?

I think good ride is a very subjective thing. Cars with a soft ride end up with too much body roll - there is a clear trade off between the two. When I bought my Superb (not a corner carver by any stretch of imagination), the driving feel superiority over the Accord was a big factor. For my friends who picked the Accord, the plush ride in the back seat was what they focused on. Similarly, while comparing the X3 and the Discovery Sport, I liked the X3 which I found has much less body roll - but I am sure the Discovery Sport would have absorbed bumps a lot better. If I had gone for a 3 series, handling would have been even better, but the ride would have been a disaster. Even with all the tech people build into cars, itís difficult for one car to do everything well - so you need to prioritise what is important to you and pick accordingly.
Hayek is online now   (8) Thanks
Old 24th May 2018, 12:12   #84
BHPian
 
venkyhere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: hump city
Posts: 786
Thanked: 2,222 Times
Default Re: Audi Q5 vs Mercedes GLE vs others

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
If I have 10 lakhs in my pocket, I can go buy a Duster and enjoy its mind-boggling, absorbent, cushiony ride on any sort of road. But if I have 10X that amount, I can't get ride comfort? In a country where ride quality is so important due to our poor roads?

Luxury car makers have gone mad.
Most people rich enough to afford high luxury cars are not youngsters (exceptions are there) and buy the badge, really, instead of looking for actual tangible benefit to them, ie, ride comfort. I have seen so many 3-series owners sitting in the rear, trying hard to concentrate on their phone/newspaper, while the driver is grinning silly with enjoyment. They could have been in an old-gen innova and their spines would have thanked them for it. When luxury carmakers send their product to india (mostly CBU) is anything done to it, apart from GC increase ? (or even that is not done ?) I doubt any, because they know the indian customer is going to be less demanding than the european or american customer. All of them buy it for bragging rights, but us indians, want the badge really badly. For example, my friends uncle is into jewellery business and little bit of film production ; he went to great lengths to make sure that he got the delivery of his new Jaguar XF before some film awards function, since he wanted to be seen getting down on the porch from the Jag, instead of the 7 series he already has, because BMW is too common a brand in film circles. Some people approach cars like women approach their sarees - dont want to repeat something that was used for some long forgotten function/social occasion a year ago - lest someone think "uf, what a kanjoos"
venkyhere is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 24th May 2018, 18:54   #85
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: coimbatore
Posts: 23
Thanked: 14 Times
Default Re: Why does ride quality suck in so many luxury cars?

While on this topic, can anyone list out the most comfortable cars presently in India scaled 1-10 ?
daniel990 is offline  
Old 24th May 2018, 19:18   #86
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 617
Thanked: 727 Times
Default Re: Why does ride quality suck in so many luxury cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel990 View Post
While on this topic, can anyone list out the most comfortable cars presently in India scaled 1-10 ?
I too feel that the luxury cars seem to have a poor ride. I had witnessed this in my friend's BMW in the US when he gave me a ride soon after purchasing it. I found the ride unusually harsh (compared to my Honda Accord). I didn't tell him of course, to avoid disappointing him.

At that time, I thought maybe I was a poor judge. But after seeing this thread, I tend to think I was right after all!

As regards your query, I owned a SX4 till 7 mths ago (in India). It's ride was simply fantastic! Perhaps the best I've experienced till date in India. Esp when I compare to a Verna, which had a poor ride.
vharihar is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 25th May 2018, 11:51   #87
A M
BHPian
 
A M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Panchkula
Posts: 515
Thanked: 509 Times
Default Re: Why does ride quality suck in so many luxury cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel990 View Post
While on this topic, can anyone list out the most comfortable cars presently in India scaled 1-10 ?
Though not adjusted to a scale, but here is a similar thread. Link
A M is offline  
Old 8th June 2018, 20:42   #88
BHPian
 
Frankenstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Bangalore/hyderabad
Posts: 383
Thanked: 342 Times
Default Re: Why does ride quality suck in so many luxury cars?

Why can't team bhp do a real ride quality check with measurements and give feedback to the big three Germans, please test it on country roads and give realistic reviews, you can start with the e class .

Please test am eclas or bmw with stock low profile tires and with high profile tires around track and post the timings, cat will be out of the bag. If you are quiet then in future we have to drive go karts, we don't have auto banh here , how many of the owners can max a bmw or mercedes handling limit on our roads, what is luxury if it's bumpy

Last edited by Frankenstein : 8th June 2018 at 20:45.
Frankenstein is offline  
Old 8th June 2018, 21:15   #89
Distinguished - BHPian
 
dark.knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Beans Town
Posts: 1,781
Thanked: 7,414 Times
Default Re: Why does ride quality suck in so many luxury cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenstein View Post
Why can't team bhp do a real ride quality check with measurements and give feedback to the big three Germans, please test it on country roads and give realistic reviews, you can start with the e class .

Please test am eclas or bmw with stock low profile tires and with high profile tires around track and post the timings, cat will be out of the bag. If you are quiet then in future we have to drive go karts, we don't have auto banh here , how many of the owners can max a bmw or mercedes handling limit on our roads, what is luxury if it's bumpy
No need for reviews, its quite obvious from merely looking at the specifications of rim/tyre profile/springs. Mercedes E-Class will be good given that it's a Mercedes, their ride quality is usually comfortable though firm.. i.e to say that they do incredible amounts of noise damping, chassis stiffening and suspension tune so that it not only takes potholes at high speeds well, but also during low speeds. The 5 Series will be a little less comfortable, but much much better than the earlier generations.. today BMW's too can do about 80% of a Merc in terms of comfort while having sharper steering response and engine tune.

While in YouTube, you can find p-l-e-n-t-y of nut-jobs in India who've almost maxed their German cars.. I've personally seen 220 and such drivers live by the seat of their pants, the skin of their teeth.. a slight error in our highly error prone roads would result in untold disasters.

Back to comfort.. yes I too feel that the categorization of cars should be of two - luxurious and sporty. Luxurious should mean quiet cabin, plush ride, soft touch to the driving dynamics and comfortable seats.. sporty should mean loud exhaust, dramatic interiors, hard touch to the suspension performance and rock-hard seats. Luxury should be for the everyday driver.. for the family, for the elderly folks who want nothing but a safe, comfortable ride as they're ensconced inside the cabin. Sporty should be for the outstation jaunts where grip, drama and a bit of pizzaz or character comes into demand for a driver who'd like to test his reflexes every so often.. still no excuse to cross legal speed limits though. This is why I feel major youth-centric cities like Gurgaon, Bangalore, Pune etc should have their own race-tracks of about 5-6 kms.. open memberships and allow the racing enthusiasts have their day in the sun.

As for me and other like-minded people.. we don't want to carve corners, we just want to get on with the day isolated from the noise, weather and road conditions so that we still have a modicum of sanity and happiness when we come back home. That's about it.
dark.knight is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 18th November 2018, 13:00   #90
Team-BHP Support
 
SmartCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 5,133
Thanked: 27,609 Times
Default Re: Audi Q5 vs Mercedes GLE vs others

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Smartie, remembered your this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
For decent ride quality, you'll need to pay 20X and buy the Lexus LX570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
I will say a combination of few things
Gents, how strong is the correlation between sidewall height (tyre profile) and ride quality? Majority of premium cars have less than 55 profile on 17 or 18 inch wheels. However, the following models have atleast 55 profile tyres:

Why does ride quality suck in so many luxury cars?-tyre.jpg

Data from Autocar India. If I have not mentioned a particular model, it means all variants have low profile tyres. However, for some models, tyre data is not available.

If a particular model has reasonably high profile tyres across its variants, it is likely that suspension will be ride friendly too. Can we make such an assumption?

Last edited by SmartCat : 18th November 2018 at 13:25.
SmartCat is online now  
Reply

Most Viewed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks