[ShubhamGhute]

The point of view is clear:
German cars- all about driving pleasure and feel
Japanese cars- all about reliabilty and comfort

The problem with german luxury cars is that though they are manufactured in India, they aren’t prepared for India. Germans build superb cars which would survive a nuclear bomb but their suspension is not suitable for India. Fancy alloys, more driving modes, tuning of suspension for 180kmph kind of driving makes things worse.

For example consider Toyota Camry and Mercedes E-Class. While E class will be rock solid at 190kmph, the camry will give you super soft pillowy ride quality which is the need of our market and our road conditions.

[PetroTurbo]

+∞. Was thinking of writing this

The German cars offer excellent ride quality in Germany i.e., excellent NVH insulation, Rock steady chassis with close to zero body roll, offering the best environment for the driver with almost no fatigue (I drive 5-6 hours non-stop mostly cruising at speeds of 150+). I have 235 40 R19 Summer Tires and 215 55 R17 Winter. The quality of the road construction and the maintenance of the road plays a major role in the ride quality

Originally Posted by ShubhamGhute

The point of view is clear:
German cars- all about driving pleasure and feel
Japanese cars- all about reliabilty and comfort

The problem with german luxury cars is that though they are manufactured in India, they aren’t prepared for India. Germans build superb cars which would survive a nuclear bomb but their suspension is not suitable for India. Fancy alloys, more driving modes, tuning of suspension for 180kmph kind of driving makes things worse.

For example consider Toyota Camry and Mercedes E-Class. While E class will be rock solid at 190kmph, the camry will give you super soft pillowy ride quality which is the need of our market and our road conditions.

[Varun_HexaGuy]

Ride quality is something which is into consideration for many people buying cars from luxury brands.

I still remember, it was in last May, when we took our Hexa to a family function and my dad's cousin who had a Jazz CVT then (and he still does) couldn't believe that it was indeed a car from the Tata's stable. He really appreciated for it's ride quality and the finesse of the interiors.

Exactly within 15-days of this, my cousin (my dad's cousin's son) had surprised my uncle with a brand new Mercedes A200d Night Edition on which he got a good deal. This car was replacing his dad's other car which was neglected after the coming of the 2016 Jazz V CVT, a 2004 Octavia.

His dad, though loved the car but after a couple of highway runs from his place to his son's place, he complained about the complexity of the features inside the car (that's a given even with the entry level luxury cars) and no prices in guessing the other one, it's the ride quality.

As many of us know that the A-Class's suspension setup though a lot improved over the CBU version, even with the downsized rim size on the locally assembled A-Class is still stiff (17-incher from the CBU v/s 16-incher from the locally assembled one). Add to that this so-called another lame limited edition from the Benz had come shod with 17-inch diamond cut alloys which made the ride quality even worse over the normal A-Class.

On the day, when we had gone to their place to see their car and to congratulate them on their purchase, his dad was saying to him that he could've rather bought the hexa itself (yeah, he was floored by it) and he could've saved a lot of it by buying the hexa and he said that he could go full house in utmost comfort which is not the case with his A-Class now. The rear seat of the A-Class is so claustrophobic that my nephew and niece refuse to sit in it and are happy in the Jazz or the i10 (their other car). While they love the fact that they've finally plunged and bought a luxury car for themselves, he still admits that there isn't any luxury at all owning this car apart from the badge value and the $$$ they paid while getting the car home.

So, he asked his son and me a question that day that does owning a car which offers all the luxuries apart from badge value makes more sense or a car which is supposedly a car from the brand known to make luxury cars which aren't luxurious at all?

My pick would be the former. Even considering the present market norms, I would pick up a Superb or a Passat over the much more expensive 5'er or the E-Class (if I have the $$$, then the LWB E-Class is my pick) but if I'm limited to a specific budget then the former is my choice. Secondly the other cars which offer same level of luxury or even better luxury levels are double the cost. If a luxury car is to be chauffeur driven, then the ride quality and the suspension-setup (hardness or the softness or the perfect balance of both) makes a sky-sea difference. Also, the luxury levels is not only be shown in the quality of materials in the car and the attention-to-detail (both of which we enthusiasts crave for) but also for the sumptious ride quality and space inside the cabin and more so at the rear seat (for the masses).

If I want a car with a badge value and the luxurious back seat experience, then a used E-Class or an A6 makes sense over the monstrous and not so roomy 5-series.

Varun

[HKap]

Originally Posted by ShubhamGhute

The point of view is clear:
German cars- all about driving pleasure and feel
Japanese cars- all about reliabilty and comfort

That used to be true a few years ago but not anymore. The Germans have been moving slowly towards the "comfort zone" with softer rides and the steering feedback seems to be going south too. The F30 3 series pre LCI had a major issue with lack of steering feedback and a soft chassis. They fixed it to an extent in the LCI facelift but the basic DNA still exists. I haven't driven the Jag XE but the reviews suggest that its the benchmark today. The Lexus IS 350 F sport has been getting good reviews too. The problem with the Lexus is the gearbox and the lack of low end torque. I've seen a few reviewers rate the driving dynamics (chassis and steering) of the Lexus right up there with the Jag.

The LF-A, Godzilla and the new NSX are all right up there with the best as far as driving pleasure is concerned. The technology seems to be flowing down to their "affordable" cars too. Infiniti and Lexus (IS and GS) seem to hold their own against their German rivals.

So, I think the Germans and the Japanese are both trying to get qualities from each others' cars into their own. We're I think, 1 generation of cars away from seeing little to no difference in these cars. It will come down to brand preference.

[jalsa777]

Owning 2 vehicles which belong the extreme ends of the comfort scale, viz. the Hexa and the old-gen BMW X1, I'll share some observations.

Low profile tyres have been blamed quite a lot in this thread, but both these cars have low profile tyres, so that isn't that much of concern in the comfort department.

The BMW handles extremely well, but is it 'usable' handling ? NO. A small mid corner bump will make her move around a lot, so in our conditions that lovely handling is useless. Infact I actually go around corners faster in the Hexa cause it won't lose its composure around a small bump, or a joint on a bridge.

Similarly, the BMW is faster at picking up speed, but can I actually pick up speed and keep it there? NO again. Cause I have to slow down for every small bump, and on those roads with long undulations, the back seat passengers experience hell.

So, not only is the HEXA damn comfortable, it actually makes for a faster car just because it is comfortable.

On that note, not all big expensive cars are uncomfortable. Recently I did a long trip in a Landover Discovery Sport, and boy it was comfortable. Almost as comfortable as the Hexa on the same road (Mumbai-Gujarat Highway). And it handles better than the Hexa!

So, I think the ideal compromise in ride-handling for indian conditions is out there, but the brands won't tweak their cars for these conditions. That's where the cars from the 'lower' manufacturers are just better off cause they've been designed/tweaked for our conditions.

[roby_dk]

Good to see that Hexa is portrayed as a benchmark of comfort from many members. This surely means Tata has done something really well this time. While there are various comparison between different segments I feel better to stick to segment wise comparison.

Few months back while looking out for an AT replacement of my dicor I was almost done with Hexa. It was an obvious choice between XUV & Innova. But once I moved to the next segment in Fortuner, Endeavour & Pajero territory I never thought of looking back at Hexa. I comfortably picked Endeavour from the lot which is still an obvious choice for many enthusiast in this Forum.

Coming to ride quality in luxury cars they are not specifically built for absolute ride comfort they have to excel in other areas like bling factor, handling, cornering, braking distance, acceleration and creature comforts. Also a wise comparison will be between flagship models i.e superb or passat should not be compared with 3 series/C class/A4 it has to be 7/S/A8.

[Ithaca]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

.. and for that every mainstream car that I've owned until date, has been more than adequate.

Your post was excellent in covering a lot of points and making a few more points that were enlightening.
If you don't mind, could you rate the vehicles you have owned / driven / been driven in, in order of comfort and luxury.
Would make for an interesting reading.

[ShubhamGhute]

Originally Posted by HKap

That used to be true a few years ago but not anymore. The Germans have been moving slowly towards the "comfort zone" with softer rides and the steering feedback seems to be going south too. The F30 3 series pre LCI had a major issue with lack of steering feedback and a soft chassis. They fixed it to an extent in the LCI facelift but the basic DNA still exists. I haven't driven the Jag XE but the reviews suggest that its the benchmark today. The Lexus IS 350 F sport has been getting good reviews too. The problem with the Lexus is the gearbox and the lack of low end torque. I've seen a few reviewers rate the driving dynamics (chassis and steering) of the Lexus right up there with the Jag.

The LF-A, Godzilla and the new NSX are all right up there with the best as far as driving pleasure is concerned. The technology seems to be flowing down to their "affordable" cars too. Infiniti and Lexus (IS and GS) seem to hold their own against their German rivals.

So, I think the Germans and the Japanese are both trying to get qualities from each others' cars into their own. We're I think, 1 generation of cars away from seeing little to no difference in these cars. It will come down to brand preference.

+1 for that!
Japanese and germans are trying to be what they aren’t. Germans and japanese are trying to exchange each other’s qualities. Germans are improving on ride quality, reliability front while japanese are offering more engaging cars to drive with build quality in the league of germans.

:thumbs

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by Ithaca

If you don't mind, could you rate the vehicles you have owned / driven / been driven in, in order of comfort and luxury.
Would make for an interesting reading.

Thanks, I could do that.. but I don't know how much of my opinions would actually be universal, as each person has a certain threshold of wobbling/noise filtration and harsh ride and thus contrasting opinions may come out. Right out the gate though there are a few cars that I'll rate as being excellent for the brutal roads of India and those mainly come out the same plant in Ranjangaon :

Cabs (Ascending order) :
- Zest (10/10)
- Bolt (10/10)
- Sunny (8/10)
- Xcent (8/10)
- Innova 17 (7/10)
- Dzire Tour (7/10)
- Ford Figo (7/10)

Owned (Chronology) :
- 17' Elantra (an all rounder for comfort and handling) (10/10)
- Getz (the best car that I may've owned, a go-kart) (9/10)
- Santro (best seating till date) (8/10)
- 800 great for its era.. I was a kid then so never drove it. (7/10)
- Premier Padmini - lol I was a toddler then but loved the seats to bits.. very very spacious and a true family car for its time (8/10)

Driven, a long list (purely on comfort basis) :
- Fiat Punto (the best car for cities like Bangalore) 10/10
- 1st Gen Hyundai Verna 8/10
- Ford Aspire, call it tyre issues or build problems.. but 6/10
- New Maruti 800, it was ok for its era.. but with todays competition and its narrow tyres you cannot drive over rough roads at all. BTW old gen's build quality/noise isolation was way higher than new gens - 6/10
- Polo 1.2 (6/10), combination of loud engine and kind-of harsh ride.
- Polo TSi - Ok I suspect that this test drive car had very high air pressure, the car was banging over every undulation and we were getting tossed here and there.. the sales guy said its normal hence my opinion - (6/10)
- Mini Cooper - I'll forgive it for being a Mini (not a typical commuter car) but on the bad roads it will shake up your spine (7/10) BTW I loved driving this one.
- E90 3 Series - (6/10) Very very low riding car.. not that it is wrong to be that but in terms of comfort over bad roads it won't hold up with those run-flats.
- F30 3 Series (7/10) Slightly improved over the E90.. but feedback from steering is nowhere in comparison though driving comfort is much ahead.
- Skoda Yeti (6/10) those seats.. man, they are as hard as a stone bench in a park.. somehow I never got over them. I wouldn't ride in one.
- Vento - (7/10) Nothing special.. just gets the job done.
- BMW 1 Series (6/10) Drove the basic variant and the car already had rattles.. no way it can handle the potholes and higher speed-breakers being low-slung.

All the ratings are based on other parameters also like seat quality, height of the car i.e headroom, sound isolation, ability to cruise in comfort, ability to tackle potholes without noise etc. If I've to judge them as a driver and based on steering precision, feedback and fun in curvaceous roads, the numbers may drastically change.

[Varun_HexaGuy]

Originally Posted by ShubhamGhute

+1 for that!
Japanese and germans are trying to be what they aren’t. Germans and japanese are trying to exchange each other’s qualities. Germans are improving on ride quality, reliability front while japanese are offering more engaging cars to drive with build quality in the league of germans.

Yeah indeed, in the verge of keeping up with the competition, the car companies have forgotten their root strengths and focusing on their weaknesses. While it's a good move, it's a bad move as well. It's like as if they're trying to become the Jack of all trades and the king of none! Hold on to your strengths and work on your weaknesses.

Luxury car Manufacturers rather than focussing on the customer needs (I'm being a layman here) and making tailored fit cars for the Indian conditions, they rather get the same cars from other markets with stripped down features and make us pay more money over the other markets which have a lot more features on offer! Secondly, does it justify to pay the additional premium what we pay over the other markets? More so since these luxury cars don't feel luxurious at all on the Indian roads. I'd be more confident going off-road with a car shod with high profile tyres. If I had an X1 X-Drive and a Figo FWD (I own the latter), I'd simply pick the Figo over the X1 if I have to take on the bad roads. Yeah, the GC is another factor altogether but I'd be more confident in the Figo than the X1. Why so?

Simply because the low-profile tyres are not only more expensive to replace but also are more prone to damage in the Indian road conditions. This thing will always be at the back of my mind and as a result, I'll be not able to use the car at its full potential.

While the most of the luxury cars are engineered abroad, they can be put to full use there since the roads and infrastructure is so better and is miles ahead than what we have here. Looks like the Luxury car Manufacturers think that the expressways here is like an Autobahn. So, they make cars which enables the users to put it around the corners and they expect us to give it the beans?! In our kinda roads, the moment you see a triple-digit reading on the Speedo, some maniac either switches his lane without any indication or some buffaloes are left for grazing on the middle of the fast lane, or some idiot tries to cross the expressway. So one hardly touches a triple digit reading on the odo.

Similarly, I'm in a mood of pushing my expensive German over the corners and it picks up the speed in a jiffy but if there is a pothole or a speed breaker exactly in the middle of the corner, the car simply gives up in such conditions. This is when you regret that you've chosen badge over the actual luxury.

Luxury car manufacturers, re-engineer a car which can take on the worst of the Indian roads, then you will easily have a double or triple the sales what you have now.

If a car manufacturer, tries to re-engineer a car suitable for Indian conditions, then one wouldn't back off while putting his car to his best use. Similarly, localisation will bring down the prices down over the other expensive CBU and CKD route. While the CKDs aren't expensive over the CBUs, they're still a lot expensive with localisation being a bare minimum. Has anyone questioned that as to why a 530i costs a mere $52,000 in the USA (translated to about 34lacs INR) costs about 65-70 Lacs here? If they are charging a premium for us over the other countries, then why not they make cars which satisfy both the classes of the customers (us enthusiasts and the masses)?

Varun

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Varun_HexaGuy

Has anyone questioned that as to why a 530i costs a mere $52,000 in the USA (translated to about 34lacs INR) costs about 65-70 Lacs here?

Well, actually it costs the same here in India if you include 53 % GST (GST +Cess) on $ 52,000 X 65 + 53 % = INR 52 Lac + which is about same what BMW India asks, further you need to add the Road Taxes- 8-20 % depending on the state, so I don't think CKD models are overly expensive considering the Taxes

[ashish22]

Well i've never been overtly happy with the suspension or ride quality of most of the cars i've either owned or driven extensively. More so beacuse im really peculiar of driving my cars extremely carefully on bad roads as i fear that any sort of carelessness would result in premature wear and tear of the suspension parts or worse the car might start squeaking which i would absolutely hate, as i like my cars to run absolutely smooth and noise free.

Hence im more particular about ride comfort and suspension quality and this is where most of my cars have not really lived up to my expectations. Having said that most of the Maruti cars i have driven literally glide on bad roads or rough patches whereas premium or luxury cars literally cry on such surfaces. That being said marutis are extremely scary at high speeds due to their soft suspensions whereas premium cars are pretty good once they develop speeds and even ride quality becomes more compliant and stable. The marutis starts to jump like being on a trampoline on any uneven dulations on the road.

That being said im impressed by the balance of ride quality and dynamics offered on 530d and endeavour that i mostly drive and i've come to learn that both can be pretty smooth to drive if you are patient enough to negotiate extremely bad patches. The ride quality of these cars are even better than my cruze and vRS and thus they definitely score brownie points.

To summarize luxury/premium cars are perfomance oriented and have high BHPs and thus they need a stiffer suspension to handle such power and high speeds cruising. Its the balance of ride quality and straight line stability and cornering which matters more than just being plonked with a super absorbent suspension with zero stability in luxury cars. That scenario would be much worse!

[gururajrv]

I’m astounded by the fact the ride quality is compromised in India solely for the handling?! I mean, how is it possible for a luxury car made in India (atleast most of them), haven’t considered the roads in India?!

I mean, what’s the % of buyers, who are drivers for these luxury cars that we are talking about? I believe 45 on a scale of 100 are enthusiasts who goes in for these luxury cars for the explosive performance it has to offer whilst the rest of the crowd in this segment are chauffeur driven passengers who prefers to sit and enjoy the luxury of the back seat majority of the cars from the 3 big Germans. However, it’s indeed intriguing to know the ride quality is compromised for the handling when Nurburgring isn’t here in India

Perhaps, I could be wrong with the perception I had over 3 & 5 series from BMW, where in I had believed those cars are not driver friendly cars, rather made to please the comfort and brand value seeker. But after coming across various threads (one from GTO) and talks over the 2 cousins and it’s relevant explosive performance has indeed changed my perception of late. Perhaps, the makers are learning to read people’s mind, since there’s a slight shift in the preference of performance over comfort in the recent past looking at automakers coming out with more and more cars focused on performance.

[reihem]

Originally Posted by ShubhamGhute

The point of view is clear:
German cars- all about driving pleasure and feel
Japanese cars- all about reliabilty and comfort

Swedish cars- the best of both worlds

[giri1.8]

Originally Posted by gururajrv

I’m astounded by the fact the ride quality is compromised in India solely for the handling?! I mean, how is it possible for a luxury car made in India (atleast most of them), haven’t considered the roads in India?!

I guess they have their limits, on how much they can tune the suspension from stock settings. Imagine 400BHP car with boat like handling, that would be a disaster waiting to happen. You can have a look at Mercedes G wagon crashes to get an idea on this.

Only was around this is to extensively modify their cars for our condition, which will increase the cost of the car, again gives them disadvantage.