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26th April 2018, 23:01 | #31 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Stockholm
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| re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? Quote:
But I do get the gist of your post, all you are saying is not to be complacent, right. | |
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26th April 2018, 23:15 | #32 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Chennai
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| re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? Quote:
On top of that, his car spent its entire life in a town with minimal technical support. Car's touch screen lags so much behind our budget mobile phones, yet it's advertised as a premium option available only in the topend. | |
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26th April 2018, 23:17 | #33 | |
Distinguished - BHPian | Quote:
No, that is your interpretation entirely. High taxes aren't necessarily unfair, they are part of the system. You lower one tax, something else has to give. Any government anywhere in the world needs to balance income with outlay. How well they do so, whether you agree with their priorities is a personal and maybe a political preference. Within the system you can always optimize, but you can never improve one particular item without some concessions on other items. So if you want lower taxes on cars or income in any given system in the world something has to give. E.g. you buy less fighter planes, spend less on social well fare, spend less on education, reduce salaries of the public servants whatever. So comparing car prices from one country to the next is as far as I am concerned completely useless unless you compare every component in the the respective system in each country. Cars in Germany are considerable cheaper then here in the Netherlands. The VAT is just about the same, but the Dutch government slaps on additional taxes on top of the VAT. Is that unfair? Well, I don't think so, it is just part of how the total Dutch tax system works. And overall I dont think the Dutch system is perfect but I think it is better then most. So I wont bitch about the fact that in Germany my car would cost considerable less. To change something like taxation because it is supposedly unfair and to think it can be done without consequences is just naive in my opinion. If you like to know my stance on why I think people should immigrate and what I think increases the chances of you migrating successfully, please visit the respective thread on this very forum. It has utterly nothing to do with nationalism and all to do with a lot of published research, human behaviour and my own experience having lived and worked all over the world. Being negative without offering practical solutions on how something should be improved is simply something I do not appreciate and subsequently such individuals I would rather see very far removed from whatever place I happen to call my home at the time and or enjoy in general. In any county irrespective of the actual taxes there is always a fair number of people who bitch and moan about the taxation. Very few offer realistic options on how to improve the situation. You will appreciate that just lowering taxes on cars and income tax is not as simple as that. So I simply do not have much patience for such arguments. I think they are selfish, over simplified, naive and totally unrealistic. just one old git's opinion, of course. People who just want more for their own purposes and don't want to think it through what it might mean for others or society at large I do not have much patience with. In democracies everything is a concession. How often they collect your garbage, if at all, how much you pay for fuel, how much tax on your car etc. Jeroen | |
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27th April 2018, 00:38 | #34 | |
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| re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? Quote:
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27th April 2018, 01:06 | #35 | |
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| Quote:
However you have to see things from other people's perspective as well. Most of the salaried class has every right to crib about these taxes as they don't get much in return for what they pay. The government definitely has to take care of the less fortunate with the taxes they get, but since you have lived in India, you must have witnessed first hand, the state of services one gets from the government over here. There are exceptions, but the govt over here constantly fails to provide the basic infrastructure when it comes to roads, electricity, education and health. So, if someone has to pay for all these basic necessities at exorbitant rates themselves, then they will definitely make some noise when the govt pushes them even more with high tax rates. So, if you look from their perspectives, it is natural to try and worry about themselves first because they know that they can't rely on the government. I live in one of the few states of India that sells electricity as it has surplus power. And yet, the state government can't ensure a regular supply. My region sees no snow so there isn't even that excuse for them. The transformer is overloaded and my house being the last one on the line faces regular low voltage conditions. Despite, the executive engineer(XEN) of the electricity department being my relative, it has been more than an year since I applied for a 3-phase connection so I could start my business. He has done all the documentation etc but the department can't seem to scrape together 16k to install 2 poles so that the supply can travel 100m to my house and this is after I will be paying from my pocket for either a stabilizer or a transformer which will cost around 40k. And still, I am much better off than 95% of the people who live in other states of India when it comes to electricty supply. The local schools are a mockery and a decent hospital which has an X-ray machine is more than two hours away. The Ambulance takes 30 minutes just to reach to you and there are no paramedic staff to even give first aid. It's just a driver and a bed with an oxygen tank. So when I have so much to worry about and spend money on even the basic necessities, when will I get the time and the money to worry about the society. | |
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27th April 2018, 09:04 | #36 | ||||||
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| re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? Quote:
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Another fact - 37 million Indian filed for income tax - they represent about 22 million families* out of the ~240 million households in India as per World Bank. So where income tax is concerned 9% of the households, who are the better off, pay 14% of the Govt's budget through income tax. What's so out of whack with that?? On this august forum I often see writers bitch and moan about 37 million income tax payers supporting the 1300 million. Let's move away from the myth and look at the data beneath - please. Are our Govt provided services up to the mark - not quite and in some cases pathetic - mainly water and education. They can improve, Some have improved. And sensibly the Govt and the present generation of bureaucrats under stand that less Govt is better. Things have changed a lot in 25 years including the way bureaucrats behave with people today versus say 1990. Cars are a high end item in our country where a large percentage still live below the poverty line and till then I at least am pleased to pay the taxes on cars. To know what's happening in your country read the Indian language newspapers. Quote:
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* all figures from Govt sources. Nos of households who pay income tax is an estimate by a research body. Last edited by V.Narayan : 27th April 2018 at 09:16. | ||||||
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27th April 2018, 10:36 | #37 | |
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You have only quoted the stats when it comes to collection of the taxes. What about statistics on how these taxes are utilized. That is what I and many others have a problem with. Everyone knows that there is gross mismanagement and inefficient utilization of the money government collects as taxes. Now if I am an honest taxpayer, why do I have to again spend so much of my time and energy and money to run around courts to hold the government accountable for it's inefficiencies and corrupt practices. All I ask is that the money gets utilized for what it is collected and not go in the pockets of politicians and beureaucrats like it does now. And until then, I would definitely be vocal about how are high tax rates are an injustice on the people. P. S. - I am going to give you a small example over here. In my state, Himachal, it has recently come to light that the government diverted funds from the State Disaster Relief Fund to refurbish government offices and residences. Now, it wouldn't have been an issue if they hadn't, at the same time, denied assistance to nearly 300 families who lost their homes to natural calamities like cloud burst etc citing budget issues as the reason. As an honest taxpayer, things like these make my blood boil. | |
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27th April 2018, 10:42 | #38 | |||
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| re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? Quote:
So the calculation of 9% households paying 14% of the tax is just not correct. Per my rough guessestimate, it is 3% of the households who are paying 10-12% of tax. Quote:
There is an old joke where a bank robber is asked why did he rob a bank . He answers: "Because that is where the money is" The fact of the matter is Govt hits us because we have the money (and no political power) - fairness does not come into the picture at all. Quote:
Last edited by timuseravan : 27th April 2018 at 10:48. | |||
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27th April 2018, 10:45 | #39 |
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| re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? Great discussion here! While it does pinch to see tiny hatchbacks touching a million rupee price on-road, it can't be denied that the right price for anything is one you are willing to pay (not my words, but can't recollect where I read this). There are cars which are cheaper than segment leaders and yet can't manage to come anywhere close in terms of sales. Why? Because people just don't buy cars with only the sticker price in mind. Tata Tigor may offer all that Maruti Dzire does at a significantly less yet doesn't even dent Dzire sales. Ford Figo, Tata Hexa are some other examples. At the risk of repeating what people have already said, cars sell at the price they do because people are willing to pay for them. There have been some truly overpriced cars, what happened to them? They had price cuts, deep discounts and what not. In the end, it is a reasonably free market and manufacturers are free to demand prices they deem fit. A lot of effort and money goes into building a brand and then benefits are reaped in the form of charging premium over competition. |
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27th April 2018, 11:05 | #40 |
Senior - BHPian | re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? I think that car prices in India have maintained parity with International Prices. What we tend to ignore is . The dollar has zoomed from Rs.5/ in sixties to Rs.66/ now and increase of 15 times. Even based on 1991 the increase is more than 3 times. . Technology and equipment in cars has also increased. . The Road Taxes which were below Rs.5,000/ in early nineties have zoomed inflating On-Road prices. Here are some prices that I remember : . In late sixties Rolls Royce was USD 25,000/ today it is touching 250,000, that is ten times increase. Dollar was only Rs.5. Today dollar is Rs.66!. . I bough Maruti 800 in 1991 for around Rs.1,20,000/. It had no AC but I paid for a heater. In 2010 I bought an Alto K10 for Rs.3.5L. The dollar was 20 in 1991 and is now 66. So from that point of view I get a better car at similar price. . Similarly prices of luxury cars have increased by 3 to 4 times (and not more) compared to 1990. In short if you factor in Inflation and Depreciation of Rupee, prices in India pre taxes are very competitive with the International prices. http://fxtop.com/en/historical-excha...18&btnOK=Go%21 http://fbinvestigations.blogspot.in/...d-in-1917.html Last edited by Aroy : 27th April 2018 at 11:14. |
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27th April 2018, 11:27 | #41 | |||
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Last edited by benbsb29 : 27th April 2018 at 11:48. Reason: Merged back to back posts. Please use the Multi-Quote button to reply to more than one post at a time. Thanks. | |||
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27th April 2018, 11:38 | #42 |
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| re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? There are always two sides to the coin. On one hand I agree that the right price is what the customer is willing to pay. But in case of cars, it might not be always true or as easy to apply. The way the car makers have hiked prices recently specially in the C segment and hatchback segment is not justified. Or the Innova costing 25L for that matter. The customer is not paying that much money willingly but is rather forced to cough up as there is hardly any choice. And almost all car makers unite and increase prices similarly. So considering the smartphone market example, for a buyer there is always a lesser prices One plus or Samsung for every Apple product, but it is not the same in the car market. |
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27th April 2018, 11:42 | #43 | ||||
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| re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? Quote:
1) Migrate (changes nothing) 2) Stay here and bitch and moan (Very important right in a democracy. In fact this brings in change) 3) Take active steps to change things you do not like (Form a political party, put hoardings). So, why migrate? Why not bitching and moaning? Quote:
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27th April 2018, 11:46 | #44 | |
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| re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? Quote:
"Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this... The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1. The sixth would pay £3. The seventh would pay £7. The eighth would pay £12. The ninth would pay £18. And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59. So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20." Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody's share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fairer to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage. They decided to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay. And so, the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (a100% saving). The sixth man now paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33% saving). The seventh man now paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28% saving). The eighth man now paid £9 instead of £12 (a 25% saving). The ninth man now paid £14 instead of £18 (a 22% saving). And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16% saving). Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got £1 out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got £10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a £1 too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next week the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important - they didn't have enough money between all of them to pay for even half of the bill! And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. ": | |
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27th April 2018, 12:51 | #45 |
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| Re: Overpriced cars : Myth or reality? Yes, cars are definitely moving up the price ladder. A few years back, I bought a Swift ZXi for 5.XX Lakh Rupees. With rising (hahaha!) incomes, the next logical price point for me to "upgrade" a few years down the line (ie, now) would be between 8-9 Lakh rupees. Guess which car I can now buy in that segment at the "upgraded" price point : the Swift ZXI! At this new price point, I am getting nothing which would qualify as an upgrade. I am assuming the story is similar for many other urban middle class salaried folk? |
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