[feluda86]

Honda is looking at margins and bragging rights.

They have realised that in India they can only have bragging rights with City. For other products, they simply do not have the market perception to fight Hyundai and Maruti (rather they lost all of what they had in trying to be Maruti). They do not want any other product of theirs to reduce demand for City. At the end of the year, they want to say "We are King of at least this segment". That is a very short sighted vision but I believe that's the way it is.

When it comes to margins, Honda also does not want to let go of it or reduce it. They want to keep their profits and always fall in the 1.2L/1.5L diesel small car category to keep prices within touching range of competition. Hence no 1.5L iVtec for Jazz and WR-V. The 1.5L petrol would lead to the even higher prices for Honda products if they are to keep their margins.The CVT is an expensive gear box. To include that in WR-V which has only limited variants (and I think is grossly overpriced), would push the cost even higher (eg: Jazz CVT is in the V variant not VX).

Why no sports variant for Jazz/WR-V? How many 1.6L S-Cross did Maruti sell last time round and for that matter how many GT TSI does VW sell? Where there is no volume, there is no Honda.

[kimmig]

Yes .. you are correct. Heard it from the Honda guys themselves. They fear a CVT WRV will cannibalize Jazz CVT sales.
IMHO, that logic is completely moronic, am surprised that Honda is doing this just so that they can sell a couple more Jazz'. Its like pati mare to chalega, par Soutan bewa honi chahiye.

But Honda marketing is known to take such calls. I remember back in 2009/2010, they priced the Jazz so stupidly, that a car that could have rocked the Indian market became a damp squib.

Originally Posted by NPV

I think the primary reason for the missing CVT auto transmission option in the WR-V is the possible cannibalisation effect it can have on other cars in the Honda lineup.

Honda needs some fresh thoughts infused into their strategy, possibly need to take a leaf out of the recent Toyota Yaris launch - Automatic transmission option available in every variant!

[Redline6800]

This is a really good thread!

As an avid Honda Fan - I will make the following points:

1. Honda now no longer leads on innovation in the Market or behaves like the confident automotive powerhouse it once was ! It is left to Hyundai or Maruti to bring in new technology or new platforms or new engines for the Indian consumer. I would have expected something like the Ignis from Honda - I am quite sure that power driver seats or ventilated seats would have definitely benefited the City but are offered by other manufacturers.

Case in point being the new Dzire vs Amaze - I would say it is the Amaze which is the more conventional design - while Maruti has tried to be different.

The Amaze seems to be a safe, conventional design that I would associate with Maruti!
The 6 year old 1.2 petrol engine it has now been further detuned for improved mileage !!

2. Honda's in India rarely sold as sporty cars! all they cars are sold as 'Premium' - the only Sporty Honda on sale in India today is the City and this has a 10 year old petrol engine that the competition seems unable to beat!

3. Honda happy to offer frills such as 'Sunroof' on WR-V (which by all accounts has hit a chord with the Indian buyer) or LED lights on City.

4. This is a perfect opportunity for Honda to differentiate the WR-V as compared to the Jazz by offering the 1.5L on the WR-V - they can even detune it to approx 100 bhp - so atleast the owner can have bragging rights. Can be done along with a facelift.

Point is unless Honda starts acting like a company that wants to be a segment leader ( if-not market leader) then it will have to change its approach:
a) When the time comes for a facelift on WR-V and Amaze - add the 1.5L with CVT/manual - at-least this way a large chunk of Honda buyers will enjoy this superb engine.
b) Alternatively launch Mugen or RS limited editions of the WR-V with the 1.5L.
c) Add Amaze VX CVT model by the end of the year - so customers can get the CVT with all the frills.
d) I feel that the Amaze will take sales away from the other Honda models - the Indian consumer I feel tends to prioritise value over bodystyle!
e) I feel with the Amaze, Honda can take the upcoming new City a little more upmarket - but they need to be bold with this car and it cannot have the same outdated 1.5L engine - any engine that is 10 years old is long in the tooth I say. Perhaps a turbocharged 1.5L on the top end-variant ?

[vineetg84]

Honda is quite happy with sales figure of the Wr V,hence they are not bothered updating it,the saving grace for the WrV is the interior space when compared to its rivals,and Honda is a more family oriented brand,i had almost finalised buying the Ecopsort for better engine and handling,but family rejected ecosport and made me buy the wrv just because of better interior space and the kid in the family wanted the sunroof.
Honda won't update the Wrv till the sales figure drop.

[lurker]

a few points that come to mind after reading this discussion.

why do people prefer suv's around the world ?

because once you go up, (in seat height) you do not want to sit low as much as possible.

sitting low in cab forward designs (as most cars are these days) means that you have to make lots more trickier judgements about traffic conditions than one has to while sitting in an suv. The same traffic conditions will be dismissed without batting an eyelid in an suv, but require more analysis and advanced thinking + positioning while driving a low height sedan/hatch. Now this isn't a big issue if one is a teenager or an enthusiast whose major achievement itself rests in fact that he gets to drive the car. But for those professionals, housewives, working moms who may have other distractions in mind and plenty of distance to cover, would prefer as little mental clutter as possible and would like a more relaxed drive from the commanding view perch of an suv.

So rest assured, WRV auto buyers will never switch to jazz auto, they will only switch brands.

My own idea of a perfect stress free travel automobile in Indian cities is an imaginary bolero cvt. It is the best of all worlds.

[anthusiast]

Wow, this thread has evoked such a huge response. An urban dweller needs:
1. Spacious, yet a 4M crossover - perfect size for congesting cities
2. Ride height, easy ingres/egress, comfortable suspension, good visibility
3. Reliable automatic transmission with paddle shifters (diesel and petrol)
4. 1.5 VTec, which is still a benchmark petrol. Many of the newer petrols are 3 Cy.

While the WRV has 1 & 2, Honda also has 3 & 4 available in City, Amaze. It is time Honda gets audacious.

[MaheshY1]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I really don't get this argument. They are not getting a 1.5L petrol in Jazz as a sports edition or in the W-RV because it will eat into the city sales?

I mean isn't that fine? To have a buyer chose between vehicles parked in the same showroom.

They would rather lose a Honda customer than have a customer cross shop between honda cars? Not very smart marketing I would say.

I agree with you. And I wish Honda launched the Brio 1.5 at a competitive price point to take on the Baleno RS and GT TSI. That'd make a fun go-kart. But the feature difference between the top end WRV petrol and diesel also suggests that Honda isn't even interested in selling the WRV petrol.

If Brio 1.5 existed, I'd have said that the WRV 1.5 is also possible. However niche a hot hatch may be, it has a market; if priced right.

If it was up to me, I'd prefer in-house cannibalization too. Maruti does it best. Nexa adds some distance between the two dealerships, though.

I don't have many logical reasons to support my claim. All I have is an educated guess.

[Nazzy]

WRV diesel top-end has lots of good features, still majority of the forum members don't have a good perception of WRV. In the "WRV vs competition" thread, it has gained only 12% of the votes.
Even the sales numbers over the last 6 months are fluctuating, hitting a very low point in April (2949).
Is this because it doesn't have an automatic?

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by MaheshY1

If it was up to me, I'd prefer in-house cannibalization too. Maruti does it best. Nexa adds some distance between the two dealerships, though.

I don't have many logical reasons to support my claim. All I have is an educated guess.

This is exactly my point. When Maruti has so many close variants and similar cars and offers AMT on all cars, what's Honda's problem if 2 of their products overlap. Most cars in Maruti stable overlap each other.

Maruti is perfectly fine with this since it gives the buyers options within the same showroom. They don't care if a Swift customer goes for Baleno or Ignis. The problem is if Baleno customer goes for i20.

[Abhinav667]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The thread topic should not come as a surprise. I've been saying this across the Honda threads for a while.

Honda are actually sitting on a small gold mine with the WR-V, but they are not making the most of it. Compact SUVs / Crossovers sell today and are becoming really popular. But a lot of buyers want the ease of an automatic. Just look at the number of Ecosport ATs on the road and the number of Creta ATs. Even Tata knows this and has just launched the Nexon with an AMT.

Honda recently introduced the Amaze with a diesel CVT. The first proper diesel AT option in the segment! Even though on paper, they had to reduce the motor's output from 100 PS to 80 PS as well as the torque from 200 Nm to 160 Nm, the engine and gearbox tuning have been done so well that you wouldn't be able to tell unless someone told you this. Moderator Suhaas and Eddy drove the Amaze diesel CVT and they told me that it didn't feel like it was detuned so much when driving it. They said it was a brilliant AT box and Suhaas even mentioned it was better than the petrol CVT found in the Amaze and Jazz, with lesser rubber-band effect. You will have to wait for our official review for more details.

Now just imagine this CVT in a WR-V. Yes on paper again, the figures will not be as impressive, but the convenience of a diesel CVT crossover is any day better than the jerky AMTs from Maruti and Tata. It will even one-up Ford who only have the petrol AT option in the EcoSport.

Off-topic , given this thread is about the WR-V, but I can think of another manufacturer sitting on a gold-mine and being totally oblivious to it. Hyundai has the i20 - Active and Elite, which comes with a fantastic 1.4 diesel engine. They also have a fairly capable and reliable 6-speed automatic gearbox that they offer in the Verna and Creta. Why they haven't paired the two together yet really grinds my gears (sorry).

If you wanted a small diesel automatic car, your only options till very recently were the Tata Zest AMT and the Ameo DSG. You now have the Swift, Dzire and Brezza AMTs, and will soon have the Amaze CVT, but there's not a single premium hatch in this mix. Besides DCTs, AMTs and CVTs just don't offer the well rounded nature of a good old torque converter. DCTs are prone to failures, AMTs are sluggish and jerky, and CVTs have the rubber-band effect and are sensitive to oil changes. The i20 diesel AT with a 6-speed slushbox therefore would be an excellent proposition. It would be both a great city runabout and a solid highway cruiser. If only Hyundai looked at it the same way.

Edit - Just remembered they briefly offered a 6-speed petrol automatic version of the pre-facelift i20 in a really terrible spec. I should add that a good spec is key here for the success of such variants.

[Yieldway17]

Honda really disappoints me. I have always been a Honda fan for their reliable and mature engines combined with the supposed premium products. But they have diluted the premiumness so much, it's now considered less premium than Suzuki(Nexa) and Hyundai in almost all segments.

Honda doesn't seem to be aware that the Indian customers are changing and are expecting more powerful cars but at the same time not pay a price which is not considered as value. They seem to be content milking 1.2l engine powered cars for 8-12L than upgrading them and sell it for little less margin with more volume.

A Jazz hot hatch, a WR-V 1.5 auto, a City with no features not ticked is all too much to handle for Honda. Sigh.

[vineshpikale]

And while Honda dozes Maruti has pulled the covers off the Brezza AMT..

[NiInJa]

The reason I can think of is that currently the WRV is way too expensive for what it offers and adding a CVT will increase its price further, making people seriously think about WR-V's value compared to the Jazz (which is again a bit overpriced IMO). And Honda knows it.

Just saw the prices on carwale.com, A petrol Jazz S MT is 7.7L and Jazz S AT is 8.93L in Pune. Thats a whopping 1.25L more. Now, a WR-V VX MT Petrol costs 10.38L, if I were to take the difference of Jazz and add it here, the WR-V AT Petrol will cost 11.63L and WR-V VX Diesel AT would go upto 12.87. Don't you think that is too much money for a 4+1 seater AT ?

Off Topic: I drove a new Jazz V CVT Petrol of my colleague and it was smooth and all, but driving a CVT for the first time I realised the rubber band effect was too much for my taste (was it because of the tiny 1.2L engine ?) and the drive was boring like riding an Activa, I started loving my MT Brio much more after that. Then, I test drove a friend's brand new Dzire Zxi+ AMT which cost him ~9.9L on the road and I was pretty impressed with the gearshifts and the comfort. (Thats too much off topic for today )

[kimmig]

Whichever comes up with a Automatic first .. S-Cross, i20 Active or WRV .. can potentially do a clean sweep of the market .. the category is in a sweet spot for a lot of people who need don't want to go the Creta route.

Originally Posted by Abhinav667

Off-topic , given this thread is about the WR-V, but I can think of another manufacturer sitting on a gold-mine and being totally oblivious to it. Hyundai has the i20 - Active and Elite, which comes with a fantastic 1.4 diesel engine. They also have a fairly capable and reliable 6-speed automatic gearbox that they offer in the Verna and Creta. Why they haven't paired the two together yet really grinds my gears (sorry).

[GM6James]

Originally Posted by smartcat

WRV is a India-only model. It is not sold in ASEAN nations or Europe unlike Jazz/City or Brio/Amaze/BRV. I'm pretty sure this has something to do with WRV not being available in automatic guise.

Yes HONDA Japan only gave their mere approval. The entire research and development for the WR-V was carried out by a fully Indian team. I got this information from my sources in HONDA.

The car does follow suit with the created in India and made in India policy.