[speedmunster]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

Totally misleading and fraudulent comparison. The Ford australia website lists the starting price of the Everest at 47490 AUD, which is about 24 lacs INR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahZQpmSQWME

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMvzuNsJ7Ag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNGLYmECgJE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK3iC3GuZIU

Do you want me to post more links? And you need to watch out with your tone before calling a fellow bhpian a liar.

[BB311]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

Totally misleading and fraudulent comparison. The Ford australia website lists the starting price of the Everest at 47490 AUD, which is about 24 lacs INR. So stop spouting nonsense by comparing that with a 1 crore vehicle.

FYI, Prado costs 58 AUD in Australia. That's approx 30 lakhs INR. Who is sprouting non-sense is made evident with the evidence provided. The localization of more than 80% parts is what made Endeavour India price comparable to Everest Australia price.

Clearly, the perspective of all commentators differ. Let's not fire cannon balls on walls just because we don't like their color.

Also, Step motherly treatment to Indian market is possible because of missing regulations and intentions to follow them. Step motherly treatment is happening because of the uneven market share of manufacturers. It's all fine I guess, as down the line a number of international manufacturers are at flight risk in this market.

[nd4$pd]

Folks who are loudly proclaiming we should not jump the gun and 'assume' the missing K truss members compromise safety are in the same post pointing out (assuming) how these K truss members are 'only' used for towing and hence not applicable to India.

Evidently irony is lost on them.

Ford needs to provide answers and quickly.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by speedmunster

We, as a country, are okay to pay a crore of rupees for Prado but raise a hue and cry if the Endeavour (costing one-third of a crore) is missing two pieces of metal. All those bashing Ford for not
equipping the Endeavour with the K-Struss, please consider the price of the product first. You guys deserve to be driving the tin boxes made by those so called big car makers. Well done everyone.

Wow! Thats a harsh tone.

Have you even seen how we, Team-Bhpians, who 'deserve to be driving tin boxes' welcome the news of the 2018 Prado - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...2-60-lakh.html

Originally Posted by .anshuman

The 3 Litre Diesel, (same as the old Fortuner in slightly different state of tune) does not belong to a crore rupee car, more so when it wears the Landcruiser badge proudly.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

It comes with old Generation Fortuner 4 Cylinder engine mated with even older 5 Speed gear box

How can someone in Toyota HQ approve sales of a model that sells less than a piece per Month

Originally Posted by GTO

Someone at Toyota preponed his joke for April Fool's day .

In comparison, the Endeavour was showered praises, especially for the fantastic pricing included -

Originally Posted by S2!!!

The Ford Endeavour has been launched in India at a price of between Rs. 23.64 - 28.15 lakhs (ex-Delhi).

What you'll like:

• A big all-rounded SUV with no real deal breaker. Fantastic pricing as well
• Macho styling packs appeal. Solid build quality matches the butch presence
• Cabin is a nice place to be in. Likeable design, comfy seats & lots of storage
• Competent range of diesel engines. The 3.2L, especially, is very impressive
• Great balance between ride & handling for a body-on-frame SUV. Sweet steering too
• Offroad ready - Terrain Management System, rear diff lock, 225 mm GC & 800 mm of water wading
• 5 star safety: all wheel disc brakes, ESP & TC, 7 airbags, roll stability control, hill launch assist etc.
• Loaded to the gill with features! Panoramic sunroof, 8" touchscreen ICE + 10 speakers, parallel park assist, powered tailgate, xenon headlamps, triple-zone climate control & more

What you won't:

• Fortuner's cabin is roomier, offering more headroom & space at the back
• Missing essentials such as steering reach adjustment, satellite navigation, passive keyless entry & go, tumbling middle row seat & third row seat recline
• 2.2L engine feels lethargic over 120 kph. Not a fast highway express
• Mediocre fuel economy due to the fat 2,200+ kilo weight, AT & big diesel (3.2L)
• Ingress is difficult for the elderly / short folk. 3rd row access is terrible!
• Waiting periods are already a couple of months long
• No manual gearbox with the 3.2L. Fortuner 3.0L is available with an MT

Being unbiased means attacking whats wrong and praising what's right. Isn't it? Now that we praised it for all the rights and many customers have already bought - time to make Ford answer to the wrong as well.

If you feel an unbiased attitude is to keep quiet just because of the fantastic pricing (of what is a premium product, not an entry level car) of a product - then probably you are in the wrong place buddy.

[46TheDoctor]

The post #115 by GTO and #116 clearly point out towards the strong possibility of cost cutting done by ford india in Endeavour's chassis since this compromise is seen only in India and nowhere else in the world. And we don't even know what else is compromised in the Indian Endeavour compared to the australian Everest.

I really admired this beast after watching so many australian reviews, but here goes my respect and plan for the possible purchase of this beast down in the dumps

[fiat_tarun]

I would hold my verdict on this till we get a proper technical explanation from someone in the know how or from Ford directly. Looking at the comments on the forum, it looks like a 'guilty until proven innocent' approach.

Yes, the K-Truss is present in other markets and not in India, but exactly what are the trade-off's with it being removed ? What is the retail price differential between the Endeavour in the other markets v/s India ? (keeping in mind taxation as well). A quick image search of the Fortuner chassis does not show it having a K-Truss either, so does this suddenly make the vehicle unsafe ?

If the main issue is about the manual mentioning this part and if this can be termed as a 'missing feature' coming under the standard disclaimer, the jury is out on this one and is very subjective. I personally do not see this as such a big issue as it is being made out to be (with the basic engineering knowledge I have and ~9 years in the auto industry), but to each his own I guess !

[Mu009]

Wow! Talk about acrimony...

Well, I can see that distinguished BHPians are doing a great job of setting straight those affected by what I can only call "post blindness". In their admirable haste to protect a poor, powerless and victimised international car manufacturer they appear to have overlooked clear answers to their repetitive assertions and have resorted to a certain amount of mud-slinging.

For my part, I will only this - offence can only ever be taken, never given. And there seems to be a certain adversarial bent to the replies of those who seem to believe Ford is above reproach.
Everyone has different perspectives is a lovely sentiment on its own, but I think one ought to step back and take stock if their first reaction to something so impersonal is as to a personal affront.

Also, it's great that those who are happy customers are happy. I am genuinely happy for you, and not saying that in the general hollow way - it's great that you purchased from a brand you like with such a lot of your hard-earned money and found great pleasure in it. Awesome!
But, are you really satisfied with it if you cannot not jump down people's throats when defending a hitherto unknown omission? I would imagine someone quite so happy would be much more secure in their contentment.

And please, a request to those who seem to be jumping into the fray a little late and are harping on about it not being established that said removal is an issue - please note that it has been before posting. The required for towing only theory has been poked a giant hole in as well.
One can only take a horse to water, but cannot force it to drink...

Few things have been posted that I would like to refute however:
1. While the videos posted by our esteemed moderator .anshuman are both highly entertaining and instructive (I personally find them invaluable in understanding just how on paper stuff translates to the real world in a realm which is of vital important to me), they have not yet proved how durable the New Endeavour is. Just how capable it is. We don't yet know how a chassis lacking a critical member will age with repeated (warranted) abuse over time - nor how differently it'll fare from one with. My guess is worse though. Member helps reduce flex. Heavy off-roading causes flex. More wear without member over time.
2. It is not for Ford to decide my use case - towing may be illegal, but off-roading is not.

Off-Topic
3. Something that someone in the "anti-Ford camp" (the one I belong to, just in case it wasn't clear) posted. I haven't looked into the "big 3" Germans in this regard so I will not comment, but I must point out that Volvo is certainly not cheaping out on India. They have petitioned the Indian government to clear the purely bureaucratic hurdle to radar based safety features in India. Other luxury marques remove those features for India, but Volvo has only deactivated them - all the while attempting to bring safety features many might dismiss as impractical for our highways (AEB would be a game changer though IMO). It might just be perhaps that the Scandinavians are yet to learn being Indian the way others apparently have. Also, they have introduced CBUs at on par prices until they became ready for CKDs.

Lastly, to those few who were so kind as to tell us what we deserve, I thank you for so easily gleaning and then sharing such insight into our lives with only posts on an internet forum - I personally had no idea what I deserved so far - thank you for clearing that up.

I leave you with a quote an unknown writer wrote for a popular character:
"People don't get what they deserve. They just get what they get."

May peace descend on all ye merry men. *tips non-existent hat*

Edit: And yes, fwiw, I second the motion that the manual issue be dropped. It's both pointless and purposeless. Pointless because it isn't relevant to the problem and can be easily dismissed as standard industry practice - that's really not the important aspect of the debate IMO. As a side note to the "technical writer" (a term for one who works on these manuals, I am led to believe) here - I for one do not think you have a donkey's job. As a side-side note, just because something is done by many as a donkey's job, doesn't mean it is. It is Quality that matters. Yet again, I exhort all deriders and/or enthusiasts to read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", written by a "lowly" technical writer.
Purposeless because Ford can easily walk out of that one.
And, I reiterate, I'm not waiting for Ford's reply at all - it's really easy for them to come up with something innocuous. What will be interesting is if the facelift comes with the K-Truss.

[wrongturn]

Originally Posted by speedmunster

+1 to that. If one checks out the some of the Australian comparo videos on Youtube, one will notice that the Everest is a direct competitor to the Landcruiser Prado. Now, correct me if I am wrong but the Prado retails here in India for close to a crore of rupees whereas the Endeavour is around 33 lakhs. That is one-third the price. We, as a country, are okay to pay a crore of rupees for Prado but raise a hue and cry if the Endeavour (costing one-third of a crore) is missing two pieces of metal. All those bashing Ford for not
equipping the Endeavour with the K-Struss, please consider the price of the product first. You guys deserve to be driving the tin boxes made by those so called big car makers. Well done everyone.

Seriously? That's your argument?

Do you even know the reason behind the huge price difference of LC Prado in Australia & India.

Members on this forum who are bashing Ford for not providing us Indians what we rightfully deserve, deserve to drive tin boxes?

Why should we not get what's standard across the globe?
Beacuse Ford thinks it's not needed in India though is necessary in all the other countries? Or beacuse Ford thinks Indians don't deserve it? or because Ford thinks Indians can pay ₹30L but can't pay for a simple chassis component?
Can you read Ford's mentality towards Indian consumers now?

In the name of cost cutting they blatantly removed a part of the car chassis which is standard across the globe, without letting the consumer know, to earn more profit. It sound more like cheating.

They cheated us, they think Indians are not as important as the consumers of other countries, they treated us as lesser beings and when we try to get answers, when we demand that we should be treated equally same as the consumers of the other countries, you tell us that we deserve to drive tin boxes?
No, we deserve better, you don't deserve to be on this forum. Please don't insult people over the opinions they have. Who made you the judge?

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by SCORPION

Misleading people to believe the Endy is now suddenly unsafe to drive anymore.

No one is misleading anyone, please. We are just saying that we need an explanation from Ford as to why is that chassis component not present, simple.

Is towing legal/necessary in countries where Ford Endeavour is sold? Why those countries have those K-truss members?

[landcruiser123]

Agreed, the missing part is a glaring omission, but I think some of us should hold our guns. Ford has some explaining to do and let us pass judgments after that.

Compared to the users in Australia, I think the users in Philipines and China will have similar usage to ours- I don't see most of them doing too much towing. I hope the answer is that the members are used for towing and they won't compromise the safety of the Indian Endeavour.

[Mu009]

Originally Posted by Sankar

Ask this too...

1) Ranger
Maximum Gross Combination Mass 6000Kg
Max braked towing capacity - 3500Kg
No K member

2) Everest
Maximum Gross Combination Mass 5800Kg (lesser than Ranger).
Max braked towing capacity - 3000Kg (lesser than Ranger)
Has K member

So, ask what's this deal with K member and so called tow rating.


PS: Maximum Gross Combination Mass - Total permissible mass/weight of the rig including the loaded vehicle and loaded trailer (inclusive of vehicle and trailer weight).

PPS: Ranger is pickup version of Everest/Endevor. Like Hilux is for Fortuner and Triton is for Pajero Sport.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Agreed, the missing part is a glaring omission, but I think some of us should hold our guns. Ford has some explaining to do and let us pass judgments after that.

Compared to the users in Australia, I think the users in Philipines and China will have similar usage to ours- I don't see most of them doing too much towing. I hope the answer is that the members are used for towing and they won't compromise the safety of the Indian Endeavour.

@landcruiser123 Please refer to Sankar's post I've quoted, or mine above.

I reiterate - This is clearly a contentious topic with many taking things a little too personally, so please do your fellow members the courtesy of reading their points properly before you appear to ignore them and/or twist them out of context.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by speedmunster

Do you want me to post more links? And you need to watch out with your tone before calling a fellow bhpian a liar.

The price of the Ford Everest as per the official website is given in this picture. Its 24 lacs INR v/s the Indian price of over 30 lacs.

Secondly you brought up the flawed comparision of Prado. No one else on this forum said anything about Prado at all, forget about it being priced correctly. You tried to confuse the issue. Only you can answer as to why you blatantly lied and brought Prado into this discussion about Ford Everest.

Also, you need to apologize first for using a condescending and insulting tone, with your comment about we deserving tin cans.

We want cars that are equal to the ones sold in the developed world. End of discussion. Ford is on the mat regarding this. They have to answer.

[46TheDoctor]

Originally Posted by SCORPION

It's really sad that you are letting go of a wonderful car based on the above discussion.

Most of the comments come from people who have half baked or no knowledge at all about the subject. It's more like mob mentality - c'mon, let's bash the manufacturer, everyone here is doing it.

It's like the car will just disintegrate suddenly because of the missing K truss and Ford is just not aware of it. Most people here seem to think that they know what the Endy needs much more than Ford themselves.

My expectation is very simple. When i am buying a global product, it has to be of the global standards; at least in terms of safety and mechanical specs (i can compromise on some convenience/luxury features if i have to).

If i am not getting that, why not just settle for something like Hexa/ Storme/ XUV instead of Endeavour/Fortuner and likes? At least we will save 40-50% of our money doing that.

The fact that the said chassis members are omitted from only the indian version and not anywhere else, is enough to question the intentions of the manufacturer. As someone has pointed out that this omission may not affect the performance but it can affect the long term durability if the vehicle is used regularly like an offroader is supposed to be used.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by GTO

My mind only wonders about what else is missing in the car that we don't know of.

Here I was, writing about Ford's Active Rollover Protection on the Freestyle, and then I thought of looking up about active safety systems in the Endeavour/Everest - and what do I find? Ford India does not provide a rollover mitigation system in the Endeavour!

Here's Ford Australia's brochure:
Everest_eBro_May2018.pdf


And here's Ford India's brochure:
[ATTACH=updated-endeavour-brochure-India.pdf]1766224[/ATTACH]


The Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) package incorporating:
- Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
- Rollover Mitigation
- Trailer Sway Control
- Traction Control System
is not there, and there is no mention of a rollover mitigation system in the Endeavour brochure - there's just ESP, which is not enough for such a vehicle with high centre of gravity.

I am not sure where the Endeavour / Everest 2.2L is sold in international markets, but my guess would be that the chassis of the 2.2L version did away with the K-shaped reinforcement in the gearbox area because of the lower power- and torque-handling requirement of the smaller engine - and then someone smartly decided that the 2.2L and the 3.2L engines can happily ride on the same chassis. Can someone please find any documentary evidence about the existence (or not) of the K-truss on the chassis of the 2.2L Endeavour/Everest?

[govindremesh]

Originally Posted by M35

Attached is the screen shot from Ford Everest Philippines and Ford Everest China official websites. This specific 'big load capacity' is under the 'performance' section which I fail to find on the respective Ford India Endeavour page.

Attachment 1766142

Originally Posted by nitinhegde

Absolutely!!
- Probably, Indian market may not need those kind of Load bearing components like in AUS where they use these SUVs etc to tow heavy stuff very frequently(it is one of their primary need).
- He mentioned that such heavy Towing etc is probably not allowed in India(am not sure) & is not demanded by Indian market.
- Such components Design is largely driven by market need and it's function(& not only cost!)
- Lastly, he said that Team-bhp folks were not fair to FORD by jumping to conclusions without knowing the real reasons. He feels that, we at Team-BHP, are biased towards some manufacturers and our hyper reactions.

These were my first thoughts. I'm not a mechanical engineer, nor do I work or own a Ford. But why would a company save 5-10K on a 30 Lacs car that sells in small numbers?

I would have understood the penny pinching logic if this was done on an Alto or a Swift/Dizire. 20K monthly * 5000 INR would be a huge amount of savings!

Originally Posted by GTO

On a 30 lakh SUV! ......
How much did you save, Ford? 5,000 bucks?

Look at it from the other side of the table Rush. Why would Ford want to save 5,000 bucks on a car that costs 30 lakhs? Assuming an average of 500 units per month and a bill of materials to Ford India at 20 Lakhs per unit, the savings is 2.5%. Why would Ford risk their brand value for such a small gain?

Apart from the materials, there might be some huge advantages in the production line in skipping this part on the chassis. Customers in India who might use their Endy for heavy towing might be one in thousands (if not 10 thousands). Then why would any business invest in providing a feature that is non value add for the target market, considering that it might not even compromise the safety of the vehicle?

I might be wrong in my assumption. But till Ford gives a reply, I would really say it is wrong to bash the company. It only deserves bashing should it refuse a reply or state that it compromised the integrity of the vehicle since India does not have strict laws.

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Let's leave the towing capacity, do we know the impact the resulting flex due to the omission of these members will have on the off-road & on-road behaviour of the vehicle AND its durability in the long run?

How many buyers of this car in India would take it off road on a frequent Basis? We're talking about a 2 ton car here. As some mechanical engineers in this forum have pointed out, the K truss should mostly impact the structure should the car be used for towing heavy trailers. The rest of the chassis is not made of plastic that it would easily flex in the absence of two bars on the chassis, specially on-road.

Originally Posted by nitinhegde

Absolutely!!
- Lastly, he said that Team-bhp folks were not fair to FORD by jumping to conclusions without knowing the real reasons. He feels that, we at Team-BHP, are biased towards some manufacturers and our hyper reactions.

While calling T-BHP biased is a bit too much, I fully agree that the majority on this forum is Hyper. I always have fun when I laugh seeing the emotion charged reactions on multiple threads, mostly from people who don't even own any vehicle from the target brand! But we can't complain, too many diverse people on this forum now