[rks]

Originally Posted by sreenivass

Failure and getting used are true with any technology. We are getting used to speeds in excess of 150 KMPH which were not heard of in early 90s, also have made progress from good old ambys and padminis.

I can tell you for sure that on the Mumbai-Pune route, the vast majority of the drivers still drive at speeds much less than 120 kmph even on the Expressway, just like in the good old days. So if that is the case for making ABS mandatory for every car, it wouldn't hold up. My guess is that while almost every modern car is capable of hitting 150 kmph, the number of drivers who actually do those speeds in India is probably less than 5%.

A second point to note is that if anybody thinks that a car like my Santro, which can do speeds close to 150 kmph, can safely handle a sudden-brake situation at those speeds if equipped with ABS, that would indeed be a serious misunderstanding as sbasak hinted at in his post. ABS will not prevent the car from going into a sideways skid, for example. That is why when you do such speeds in a small car, it is your responsibility to ensure that you never ever get into a sudden-brake situation, which means that you have to do such speeds only on (almost) straight stretches of an Expressway with relatively less traffiic.

[sreenivass]

Originally Posted by rks

.......
A second point to note is that if anybody thinks that a car like my Santro, which can do speeds close to 150 kmph, can safely handle a sudden-brake situation at those speeds if equipped with ABS, that would indeed be a serious misunderstanding as sbasak hinted at in his post. ABS will not prevent the car from going into a sideways skid, for example. That is why when you do such speeds in a small car, it is your responsibility to ensure that you never ever get into a sudden-brake situation, which means that you have to do such speeds only on (almost) straight stretches of an Expressway with relatively less traffiic.

RKS you seem to have taken whate ever has been said literally. The purpose of mentioning 150 KMPH was to say people could not even think of it a few years ago and cars capable of doing it now. Its an indication of progress, any technology has hiccups, but we overcome them.

Secondly, I never meant ABS provides better braking or having ABS provieds more stability to cars. As we all know the purpose of ABS is to avoid jamming in brakes and provide a level of steering control during braking for a skilled driver to avert accidents because of uncontrolled skid.

[rks]

Originally Posted by sreenivass

RKS you seem to have taken whate ever has been said literally. The purpose of mentioning 150 KMPH was to say people could not even think of it a few years ago and cars capable of doing it now. Its an indication of progress, any technology has hiccups, but we overcome them.

OK, I get what you mean. Anyway, here is an internet link to an ABS FAQ that should be relevant to this thread:

ABS Frequently Asked Questions

Of course these internet sites cannot always be trusted 100% as they might have a vested interest in promoting their products (in this case, possibly an ABS system). Also take a look at the following video on the home page of the above site:

ABS Education Alliance

[rks]

Originally Posted by rks

...here is an internet link to an ABS FAQ that should be relevant to this thread:

ABS Frequently Asked Questions

From this link:

Drivers of four-wheel ABS cars should step firmly on the brake in an emergency stopping situation and keep their foot on the pedal.
[...]
Will pumping the brakes on ABS-equipped vehicles improve braking performance? NO! When in use, the ABS automatically varies the brake pressure much better than pumping can. Do not pump the brakes; apply force firmly.

Let me see if I can precisely formulate my objection to ABS. Recently a Scorpio in front of my Santro on the Pune bypass road suddenly stopped immediately after a signal as we were picking up speed (I was into third gear at about 50 kmph) the reason being a broken-down Indica in front of the Scorpio. I was almost caught napping and had to brake hard. My braking effort could be described as initially at 75%; found this to be inadequate in my judgement, increased to 100%; the car stopped with loud screeching from the tyres, so probably the tyres did lock up almost at the end of the braking effort and in the end there was probably less than 1 yard left between me and the Scorpio when my Santro did stop.

I think this effort pretty much describes my normal braking pattern, except that I might do one or more pumps after the 100% effort if there were more distance left (which there wasn't in this case), in order to utilize the full distance for braking.

If I had ABS, this effort would have ended in disaster, probably in a collision with the Scorpio. The reason being that in this case the ABS would have activated right at the end of the braking effort as my pressure on the pedal reached 100%, but then that would have increased the braking distance and been disastrous. With ABS, I would have had to use 100% effort right at the start of the braking, in which case I might have stopped with more distance to spare than I eventually did.

This is the problem as I see it. ABS does not give you any scope for *optimizing* the braking distance by varying the pressure on the brakes and/or pumping the brakes. i.e., we do not necessarily always want to stop in the shortest possible distance, but we want to optimize the braking effort so that the available distance for braking is fully utilized. And we may vary the pressure on the pedal or pump for *this* purpose rather than just to prevent locking of brakes. But with ABS, you should apply maximum pressure at the beginning of the effort and hold that pressure, in order to stop the car safely in such near-emergency situations.

Of course in situations that are not so close to an emergency, you can maintain your normal braking pattern as the ABS will not activate.

[sreenivass]

Originally Posted by rks

From this link:

Let me see if I can precisely formulate my objection to ABS. Recently a Scorpio in front of my Santro on the Pune bypass road suddenly stopped ........

If I had ABS, this effort would have ended in disaster, probably in a collision with the Scorpio. The reason being that in this case the ABS would have activated right at the end of the braking effort as my pressure on the pedal reached 100%, but then that would have increased the braking distance and been disastrous. With ABS, I would have had to use 100% effort right at the start of the braking, in which case I might have stopped with more distance to spare than I eventually did.

......

The brighter side, you were lucky not to skid too much because of wheel locking and going out of control. ABS could have given you steering control and probably you could steer away from trouble. Imagine the road being wet in this situation !!

[srishiva]

Need both. Dont know when will the Indian Authorities make them standard.

[sreenivass]

Originally Posted by srishiva

Need both. Dont know when will the Indian Authorities make them standard.

I agree. Have you taken the poll, please do so. I am hoping it reflects what team BHP thinks.

[suman]

Originally Posted by sbasak

Bhpians, could you please highlight whether you came across activation of ABS while driving. Please state under what road condition, speed and location (whether India or abroad) you experienced this.

Have experienced this in both my vehicles. An example each -

Safari - Yesterday morning around 7.45 am on Nelson Mandela Road (approaching from Mahipalpur end & going towards Outer Ring Road). Was at around 70 kmph when the Indica in front of me saw a pothole & slammed on his brakes. I heard the screech, saw his brake lights & hit the pedal hard. Violent pulsing and the car came to a halt.

Fiesta - Forget the exact date, returning home late night, around 85-90 kmph, saw an unmarked (and high) speed breaker ahead so hit the brakes, felt the violent pulsing and the car came to a stop.

I'm not sure why people haven't felt the ABS coming into play - actually high speed is not the issue; its the intensity with which the brake pedal is hit. If you are in a ABS car sbasak, I suggest you go to an empty stretch of road, gun the car to a reasonable speed & then hit the brakes HARD. If you do not feel the pulsing, its a fair guess that the ABS isn't working.

Important thing to remember as I said (and as a few others have pointed out), is NOT to take pressure off the pedal when you feel the pulsing.

[sumitkalindi]

ABS Is very much needed, airbags,, yes only if the price is justified.

Airbags maybe usefull when you hit something, ABS, gives you more controll in sudden braking situations, so that you can steer out of the potential accident situation.

[sreenivass]

So far 75% think ABS is required, 56% think Airbags required and about 26% think they are prohibitively expensive. I have a couple of questions

Is it that we think if ABS is available we'll avoid most (say 99.99%) collisions, so there is no need of airbags ?

Wouldn't airbags save lives if we have a collision ?

What is a reasonable price to pay for ABS and Airbags separately ? I think 25K to 50K sounds reasonable for life saving features.

What do you think ?

[srishiva]

I think we cant arrive at what percentage of collisions will be avoided. It depends on driver's skill. But it does provide an advantage.

Air bags are necessary in case someone hits you. Not all accidents are caused by ourselves. ABS should be worth about 15K and Airbags 20K. With volume this is more than achievable.

[prabuddhadg]

I voted for the ABS only. I think the air bags are too expensive right now for me to think of. Push comes to shove, I would convert my regular seat belt to a five point harness which holds you tightly in place, away from the dashboard, and dispenses for the need for Airbags.
Just thinking aloud. Any comments?

[Rodeo]

Originally Posted by sreenivass

What is a reasonable price to pay for ABS and Airbags separately ? I think 25K to 50K sounds reasonable for life saving features.
What do you think ?

Just imagine if Alto's price goes up by 25-50k, i doubt many two wheeler owners can afford buying a car. As you said it should be made compulsory.

[sumitkalindi]

Ok air bag is a life saving device, so what??? it sholud cost what it really is worth, it is basically a air filled tough ballon, nothig else, and before anybody takes offence, let me clarify That I know it has lots of electronic gizmo's working with it. But then again drinking water is absolutely essential for life, so should we all pay 50 bucks for a litre?? The prices of these things should be reasonable. so that we all can afford it. See even if it is made compulsory and the replacement is expensive, then not all people will get them rectified if they malfunction, so what will be the use of making them compulsory??

[Palio_2005]

ABS definately. Maruti has done a great thing by offering this option in B segment cars. I wish all others would do the same.