[BackInTheFold]

Originally Posted by rahulskumar

People will tell about the energy involved in generating power to fuel these electric cars, but that is involved even with fossil fuel. At least in California, I see plenty of people who are using solar energy to power their houses and even their electric cars. Imagine a world where we can run our cars with power generated from our own houses along with no intervention from government (related with price control).

I believe that @Hayek already made a couple of great points on this thread about the electric grid in India and its capability to support EV's at scale. To rehash

1. We primarily depend on fossil fuel, and coal in particular, to power our grid. More demand from EV's implies that we burn more coal
2. Let alone the source, we simply don't produce enough power yet to light homes

If one were to tune out wistful thinking/grand rhetoric, I believe the path to clean transportation in India will be via progressively more efficient, effective and clean public transport and not via more cars/scooters, even if they are EV's, on our congested roads.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by graaja

Creta fuel cost INR 4.5/km
For a 12000 kilometer running per year, fuel cost = INR 54000

Assuming a range of 450km for 64kWh battery pack
Assuming an overall efficiency of 80% including charging losses, motor losses etc, you will get 360km per 64kWh of electricity which would cost 480 INR.

INR 480 for 360km = INR 1.33/km
For a 12000 kilomter running per year, electricity cost = INR 16000

Savings per year = INR 38,000

For a cost difference of 8.5 lakhs (27Lakhs - 18.5Lakhs), that is a break even of 22.36 years.

The range in real world as per what car magazine UK is 416km for 64kwh pack and 254km for 39kwh (test conducted with AC temp set at 21c).

Modern Lithium Ion battery have a efficiency of 99%, while the charger efficiency varies depending on whether we use 230v single phase or three phase 415v input and it can be as high as 90+ percent.

An average home charger will be more efficient in India because we use 230v/415v vs US 110v or 240v split phase.

In India you could charge at upto 7kw max per single phase meter and upto 22kw with a three phase meter (assuming no other load is connected to the meter). So the home chargers in EU and India will be more efficient because of the higher voltages, conversion efficiency is higher with higher voltages.

Also ICE car will require oil change, filter change, clutch change and other engine and auto gearbox related service expenses, as there are lots of moving parts. In EV you have no such service requirements, even brakes last longer in EV due to regen.

[Aditya_Bhp]

Originally Posted by Ragavsr

Does the Hyundai Creta SX CRDI AT move from 0-100 in 7.6 seconds? Can the in cabin silence be a match to the electric Kona?

It's a known fact the majority don't care about 0 to 100kmph timings. Otherwise we would have had more Abarths, Baleno RS, Tiago JTPs, Polo GTIs instead of an Innova or Creta. The enthusiast make up just 0.1% of the Indian market.

Same with the cabin silence, these are things which majority of Indians care less.

What a car needs, to sell well in India are road presence, efficiency, features, sunroof, and bling! And ofcourse a Hyundai or a Maruti badge. When these things are there in a far cheaper car, it makes it difficult to sell a more expensive electric car.

What we need is an electric car with a 300km range at a price of 10Lakhs. The Tigor EV at 11Lakhs is good, similarly priced to a Maruti Dzire ZDI AGS but if it only had more range, atleast a real world range of 250kms

The Kona is now in a no mans land, too expensive for the common man, too small for the rich.

Let us wait for the price reveal and hope Hyundai can surprise us.

[rahulskumar]

Originally Posted by Aditya_Bhp

We see 99.5% of Fortuners sold are diesels vs just 0.5% petrols. The petrol may be cheaper to buy but still no one buys them, as they are thirsty and will drain the pockets in the long term.

Also unlike the US, we have highly efficient diesels here, it doesn't make sense to buy a electric car for saving money as the initial expense is huge over a diesel. Diesel cannot be priced high also as it will increase inflation in all the sectors, which will affect majority of Indians.

There is also the fact that charging infrastructure hasn't developed till now, and hence they are also impractical as of now to run those extra kilometers for breaking even. Also, power cuts are rampant even in Tier 1 and Tier 2 cities, one cannot rely on the govt supply to charge the car daily. And the downtime of 10 hours is too much, ruling out the use of car during an emergency.

Regarding solar panels, I had applied for a special govt scheme that involved cost sharing benefits in September 2017, I thought of using it as a substitute to temporary roofing, but I received no response. Then in 2019 June, nearly 2 years after application, they turn up infront of my home for survey. This is the state of affairs in India.

Purchasing solar panels at home without govt support doesn't make sense to me as the upfront cost for panels and battery is very high and also will require multiple batteries over time, which will further shoot up the cost.

Unless and until there is govt support by providing necessary incentives and infrastructure, there is no way any electric car can succeed to its full potential. You cannot expect citizens to buy expensive electric cars and keep them at home for want of electricity.

I believe developed nations with deep pockets should first take the responsibility of providing clean energy and ensuring clean transportation, mass production will make them cheaper and better overtime and in another 10 to 15 years, they will become more accessible in developing nations like India.

I personally will not buy an electric car in the next 10 years, if the price difference between diesel cars and electrics are more than 5Lakhs.

A person spending 40 lakhs on a Fortuner will never worry about running cost. Let me explain,

Petrol mileage : 8 kmpl priced at Rs.80
Diesel mileage : 12 kmpl priced at Rs.70


To cover 1 lakh kms, we need Rs.10 lakh worth of petrol while for diesel we need Rs 5.83 lakh. I'm not even including the higher maintenance involved with diesel vehicles. The difference is around 4 lakhs to run 1 lakh kms which is nothing for people who own these vehicles. The main reason people prefer diesel is for the higher range (distance traveled per full tank) and the torque it offers. With the price gap between diesel and petrol reducing, people really need to think before purchasing a diesel car. Higher price also means that you pay higher insurance every year. The gap is really narrow and some states allow only 10 years permit for diesel cars. Newer cars can last a lifetime, selling within 10 years is actually huge loss. The equation changes when diesel and petrol is priced around 40 and 70 along with 10 kms difference in mileage between the two variants.

Even in CA, the solar panel is done partly with the help of government. Developed nations do not have issue with pollution and the highways are really good. Even my old accord used to give me 37 miles a gallon. India is a perfect market where manufacturers need to introduce electric vehicles. Infrastructure will come along with it. We might struggle for the initial few years but eventually it will catch up. People trust Maruti and this will be the launchpad for evolution of electric cars in India. Just wait till Maruti launches Wagon-R electric.

[Sebring]

I agree with most of the points you are making. Bangalore is reeling under extreme power crisis. In the city, thanks to the diesel generator, we don't feel it. But just step out, and it's shocking. Recently I was somewhere on the outskirts and wanted an underbody wash for my car. For almost the entire day, wherever I asked - they said 'NO POWER!'. People hardly get any power outside our city, I was told. Finally, it was back home that I got the wash done. It was an eye opener of sorts. So the infrastructure isn't ready and in the coming years whatever is in the pipeline will only meet pent up demand. Also, like you, I will only shell out 5 Lakhs more than Creta, (for a Kona).

Originally Posted by Aditya_Bhp

We have highly efficient diesels here. There is also the fact that charging infrastructure hasn't developed till now.

[roadrunner_nv]

The electric vs. fossil fuel debate is a never ending one but the future is surely electric. With the onset of rains, my 14 km commute has turned from 45 minutes to 105 minutes. Most of it spent idling in long queues at traffic lights and crawling in bumper to bumper traffic. Not to mention the pathetic state of Pune roads.
Every time the car idles for more than 2 minutes, it makes me feel guilty. Guilty for wasting fuel, causing pollution and making my car go through unnecessary wear. We can’t let go of our habits and the need to be comfortable so, I don’t switch the car off. Adding to this is the erratically crawling traffic which does not let you switch off the engine.
I wonder then, a hybrid or a fully electric car would be my only resort. I’m sure I’m not the only one with this on my mind and there are more such lost ones of my kind. For them, an EV makes tremendous sense.

[ramnaresh_2000]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_nv

The electric vs. fossil fuel debate is a never ending one but the future is surely electric. With the onset of rains, my 14 km commute has turned from 45 minutes to 105 minutes. Most of it spent idling in long queues at traffic lights and crawling in bumper to bumper traffic. Not to mention the pathetic state of Pune roads.
Every time the car idles for more than 2 minutes, it makes me feel guilty. Guilty for wasting fuel, causing pollution and making my car go through unnecessary wear. We can’t let go of our habits and the need to be comfortable so, I don’t switch the car off. Adding to this is the erratically crawling traffic which does not let you switch off the engine.
I wonder then, a hybrid or a fully electric car would be my only resort. I’m sure I’m not the only one with this on my mind and there are more such lost ones of my kind. For them, an EV makes tremendous sense.

You totally resonate my thought process. I commute 62 kms everyday for work, and everytime I am stuck in traffic I think of how much diesel is being wasted and what if I was in a EV. It also crossed my mind to buy a second hand e2o plus, but again it was very expensive and was not confidence boosting with its range on single charge.

I heard that Nissan leaf (the hottest seeling EV in world) will be priced at 40L and Kona around 20L. This is a high price to pay. For EV to be really successful they should reach the masses.

[tarik.arora]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_nv

Every time the car idles for more than 2 minutes, it makes me feel guilty. Guilty for wasting fuel, causing pollution and making my car go through unnecessary wear. We can’t let go of our habits and the need to be comfortable so, I don’t switch the car off. Adding to this is the erratically crawling traffic which does not let you switch off the engine.

Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000

You totally resonate my thought process. I commute 62 kms everyday for work, and everytime I am stuck in traffic I think of how much diesel is being wasted and what if I was in a EV.

While your points on the fuel wastage are 100% correct, i think we are missing the EV range angle here. For such bad traffic, the EV range will also suffer a lot. Although the car won't be consuming any power during idling but auxiliary systems will still consume power (AC, Infotainment etc.) and this will directly impact the range and hence practicality.

I am also in a similar boat and commute ~70kms daily for work. If in the above scenario, an EV is able to deliver a range of 250 kms, i am sold. Of course, the acquisition cost needs to be sane.

[serious_maniac]

Power crisis and coal or fossil fuel based generation of electricity are short term problems which will get resolved. Solar power generation will continue to grow and so will other renewable resources. Shift to EVs will be in parallel with move to renewable sources of energy.

At 5-6L premium on OTR prices, EVs with good range with find lot of acceptability. Indians live with lot of uncertainty on fuel prices, changing usage patterns, bad public transport, worsening city traffic conditions, sudden NGT rulings etc. etc. that they will opt for lower running cost even if upfront costs are high (not prohibitively high). If Kona is ~22L on road it will be my next.

~m

[V.Narayan]

I propose to check the Hyundai Kona out on the weekend. The range is fine for me, for 95% of the days, even after discounting it by 33%. My priorities will be the infrastructure I need to install at my parking spot for the charging process, does it auto cut of on completing a full charge, comfort level of the ride, quality of interiors, features and dickey volume. I am quite sure drive quality, acceleration and brake strength will be fine. More on Sunday.

Outside the world of electronics and telecommunication it is rate to witness a fundamental change in an industry. And here we are witnessing it in our cars and two wheelers. We live in such exciting times.

I am tempted to buy an EV but after retirement the pocket protests.

[shyampsunder]

Originally Posted by tarik.arora

While your points on the fuel wastage are 100% correct, i think we are missing the EV range angle here. For such bad traffic, the EV range will also suffer a lot. Although the car won't be consuming any power during idling but auxiliary systems will still consume power (AC, Infotainment etc.) and this will directly impact the range and hence practicality.

I am also in a similar boat and commute ~70kms daily for work. If in the above scenario, an EV is able to deliver a range of 250 kms, i am sold. Of course, the acquisition cost needs to be sane.

Power is needed to drive auxiliary systems even in ICE. The only difference is powering things like the drivetrain, engines which is not required in EVs. In fact EVs have better mileage in cities than highways. Do check this out

Originally Posted by BackInTheFold

I believe that @Hayek already made a couple of great points on this thread about the electric grid in India and its capability to support EV's at scale. To rehash

1. We primarily depend on fossil fuel, and coal in particular, to power our grid. More demand from EV's implies that we burn more coal
2. Let alone the source, we simply don't produce enough power yet to light homes

If one were to tune out wistful thinking/grand rhetoric, I believe the path to clean transportation in India will be via progressively more efficient, effective and clean public transport and not via more cars/scooters, even if they are EV's, on our congested roads.

EVs are far more efficient at converting their stored energy into kinetic energy as compared to ICE. This means that even if the grid is completely powered by coal, EVs are greener. Another added benefit is instead of having to clean up emissions from a million tailpipes, you can control emissions from a few coal power plants. Do check this out

[Ragavsr]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I propose to check the Hyundai Kona. More on Sunday.

I am tempted to buy an EV but after retirement the pocket protests.

Eagerly awaiting your report.

This I think will be my new car in 3 years time.
All you need is a 220V 15 Amp socket installed near your parking spot which is not a big issue if you live in an independent building. An electrician would be able do it in an hour.

The fast chargers will remain exclusive to the dealerships and prohibitively expensive to install at home.

[itwasntme]

A few newbie questions:

With BESCOM rates as they are telescoping to 7.5/unit, is it at all economical to run EVs?

For a home charger installation what kind of power sockets are needed and are they proprietary to buy and install?

My Bangalore neighborhood suffers from constant power cuts, and runs on Diesel Genset (DG) for significant parts of some days. Will the Society agree if I add a 'supercharger' to my garage? Why should my neighbors fund my EV charging when on DG power? Interesting times ahead!

[Holyghost]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

For a home charger installation what kind of power sockets are needed and are they proprietary to buy and install?

For home charging, all you need will be a 15A power socket. You should pull a separate power line from your meterbox to your parking lot so that the current will be billed directly to your meter. If you have 3 phase power supply, you can setup a AC Level2 3 phase charger which can charge your vehicle in 6-8 hours. If not, from normal 15A socket, expect 16-20 hours for full charge of the 64KWh battery.

Originally Posted by itwasntme

Will the Society agree if I add a 'supercharger' to my garage? Why should my neighbors fund my EV charging when on DG power? Interesting times ahead!

Your society DG cannot provide fast charging level currents. You need to setup a separate transformer and 50KW 3 phase power supply dedicated for your super charger in your parking which is next to impossible. Unless there is some major policy changes, Bescom is not going to provide that type of connection to a normal consumer. At the max, what you could get is a 7KW 3 phase charger which again will be difficult if you are in an apartment. Even though the apartment complex as a whole will have 3phase power supply, Individual units of an apartment is generally given 2-3KW single phase connection and that is what you can pull from your meter box.


Updates from the Hyundai Kona Launch Live stream.
452KM range
3Year/Unlimited KM Vehicle warranty
8Year/160000KM Battery Warranty.
Level2 AC charger to be provided/installed free of cost at customer premises
Select Indian Oil fuel stations to sport DC fast chargers
Emergency charging (Road side assistance) to be provided by portable generator vans.

[mohan41]

Not specific to Kona, but who takes responsibility for disposing off or recycling old batteries? In developed countries electronic wastes are managed well, but I am not sure how is it here.