[su1978]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Dear GTO, before we directly start calling them 'cheap' all out (For Hexa it's fine, but here I find it too strong a message), don't we need to analyse what is there on offer in the product itself and what the competition is offering?

Aren't we talking of the same brand which is still selling us a better built (Relative term, Santro and Wagon R in question) car, which recently got the addition of ABS as a standard fitment?

Here is the wheel well of the Santro, which is a more expensive product and doesn't even get the grab type door handles, no alloys, fixed headrests and what not. Did we call them 'cheap' in such a strong manner?

Attachment 1847532

Tata removed rear wheel well cladding. So what? Neither this car belong to that sensitive a segment where people will look at such minor details, nor are the competitors offering anything like that. Ya, new Wagon R has got the 1.2; but doesn't that make an 'already-coffin-on-wheels' even more dangerous?

I don't see anything of that gigantic significance here after we conduct a quick competition analysis over which we need to directly call them cheap. Let's not forget that this is the same brand which is probably providing the best built options in the segment (In 2015, near my site a Tiago XZ had a head on with a Tata 407; the car was in mangles and occupants faced major injuries too - but coming out alive from that mishap in a small hatchback itself was a wonder to me, as I expected at least front occupants dead). The product is now coming with standard ABS, you get the best seats in the segment to stay comfortable on, best in class ride quality and a wonderful fuel efficiency. They are simply offering what is of max significance and have been further adding on.

If they never offered the item (Rear wheel cladding) in the place, we would have been all appreciations for this baby Tata. What they have done is, simply remove the component they felt isn't needed because it's not something the target segment is bothered about.

Without any offence to anyone on this forum, i have found that there is a certain biased attitude towards the best sellers in indian market. This biased nature is a reflection of Indian car buying public. Maruti/Hyundai may keep on cutting costs and reducing features and offering coffins, but if it is done by any other manufacturer, knives are out and everyone starts badmouthing them. On the other side, these market favorites will even offer a car with 3 wheels and we will have buyers/experts favoring them with excuse like "what an innovative way to control cost. Less use of one tyre will help reduce carbon footprints."

As far as the build quality goes, entire india is aware about the tin cans that maruti makes. But we still have the largest number of members on this forum who will buy Maruti/Hyundai eyes closed and will think 5 times before buying any other brand. In place of Tiago colliding with Tata 407, had it been a maruti, all the occupants would have been dead.

[Sheel]

I thought Tata Motors is leading the industry by example, now that is a good example set by them for others to follow.

Competition isn't offering 5 star NCAP cars as well, why is Tata offering it? Tata is offering the top end variant with an AT, that is a good example, but offering something/feature at the time of launch and then deleting it without any prior notice/information is sly.

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by su1978

Maruti/Hyundai may keep on cutting costs and reducing features and offering coffins, but if it is done by any other manufacturer, knives are out and everyone starts badmouthing them. On the other side, these market favorites will even offer a car with 3 wheels and we will have buyers/experts favoring them with excuse like "what an innovative way to control cost. Less use of one tyre will help reduce carbon footprints."
.

You see the problem with this line of thinking is we will never get good cars that we deserve. Because, since 'k' brand has done xyz to cut costs, it is ok for 'L' brand to do ABC.

No sir, 'k' was wrong and so is 'L'. The fact is we as a forum need to bring this up and call a spade for what it is, A spade.

The fact also is that in this very forum you will find threads speaking about shoddy quality in Honda City, admonishing Maruti for dismal safety standards and build quality and calling out Toyota, Hyundai etc for unreasonable premium or high running costs.

It does not help if we start getting defensive at such posts regarding our favorite makes since that defeats the very purpose of the forum. One may or may not live with the issues, but they need to be called out so that we consumers as a whole get benefitted.

Like I said, there are many threads talking about the short comings of other makes as well and also posts about the 5 star rating of Nexon. Of course we won't discuss that here, because this thread is about Tata deleting features.

[landcruiser123]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Dear GTO, before we directly start calling them 'cheap' all out.....
Here is the wheel well of the Santro, which is a more expensive product and doesn't even get the grab type door handles, no alloys, fixed headrests and what not. Did we call them 'cheap' in such a strong manner?.....
Tata removed rear wheel well cladding. So what? .......
I don't see anything of that gigantic significance here

Respectfully, I disagree. Tata needs to be shamed here (Please read the next part too.) Unlike the Santro (which is not offering certain features,) the Tata is offering them in initial versions and then cutting the feature in the later version.

Picture this scenario: You're driving an old Tiago and you drive on an improper road. Small pebbles hit your rear wheel cladding but the sound is muted. You buy the car and then figure out that the noise is more than what you experienced in the test drive. You wonder why and discover that this part is absent in your car. You contact the dealer who says 2019 cars don't have the cladding. I'd certainly feel cheated in that case.

Originally Posted by su1978

Without any offence to anyone on this forum, i have found that there is a certain biased attitude towards the best sellers in indian market....

I think all manufacturers were shamed equally- be it the Hyundai i20/Verna without 6 airbags or rear disk brakes.

Tata are also cutting parts that take away the 'feel good' factor in their cars. I think Tata is getting more attention than the rest as they are they have finally upped their game and offered good products and they are very quickly sliding backwards.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by GTO

Cheap, cheap, cheap

Thanks to Mohamed Fardeen for sending this information in. Heartfelt gratitude for sharing it with other enthusiasts via this Team-BHP page!

It seems that Tata Motors has simply removed the rear wheel well cladding in order to cut costs for the 2019 Tiagos. This is ridiculous as the same stockyard had a (presumably older) XZ variant with the cladding

I am confused. Which is which? Both look identical to me. Or is it to show how the wheel well looks after removing the cladding?

[VKumar]

On the other side, these market favorites will even offer a car with 3 wheels and we will have buyers/experts favoring them

Bad assumption dear friend, this very forum has reached where it is after facing many such instances where it is either denied or threatened. Look who is still standing tall, its the forum; not the manufacturers.

As far as the build quality goes, entire india is aware about the tin cans that maruti makes.

That's a personal choice of buyers. If people want to buy a car or a set fo crumple zones with a cabin affixed between them; it's all their choice. Let's respect it. Anyone driving a 30 lac worth car is not concerned about the FE, Maruti targets the market segment for which running cost do matter. So the people who want it economical, they will have Maruti on the top of their list.

Originally Posted by Sheel

offering something/feature at the time of launch and then deleting it without any prior notice/information is sly.

Let's both of us, then, agree to the point that if they haven't offered this rear wheel cladding right from the day one, we wouldn't have had any issues. Right?

What is a bigger cheating than offering Indians the cars which are phased off or have a poorer chassis? Did those manufactuers do that with a notice or any prior information? They were exposed by NCAP bodies, right?

What looks like a sly to you, it makes absolute business sense to me if we look at the market segment we are talking about. Explanation is in last reply

Originally Posted by vibbs

It does not help if we start getting defensive at such posts regarding our favorite makes since that defeats the very purpose of the forum.

Another purpose of the forum is that it's a knowledge loaded discussion platform; where we do share our observations and seek the explanations. Isn't it? Let's sit and analyse. My argument in the said premise, before I start is:

"Tata Tiago is a small hatchback from an Indian brand called Tata motors. Since this particular brand is not having a huge brand pull/equity, Tata motors uses pricing as one of its USPs'. Now the car in question belongs to a market segment, that is highly price sensitive and most of the buyers here cannot afford to spend like paying a lac for an apple car play addition (you know which German brand I am talking of)"

Point to be noted: I am against them when it comes to giving similar treatment to Hexa

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Respectfully, I disagree.

Disagreement accepted respectfully sir, I agree with your argument in fact. Actually what my argument is, it is the next part of your statement itself.

What I am saying is not that this is absolutely right. But see, every manufacturer has its USP. Maruti has FE, Hyundai has NVH and fit + finish. If Tata is losing market share. What will they focus on? They have all the rights to save their USP. Don't they? What they have simply done is that they chose not to hike the price and remove something towards which customers are least sensitive.

Take this scenario, their USP is price and the segment which they are competing in; is highly price sensitive. Many guys here feel the heat of even 1000 bucks more on EMI and they actually don't go to thr dealer at 10 am with a bag and take delivery at 1 pm like we guys do. Now, just to maintain a sharp price difference, they have to adjust the input costs. This is the segment where a 10k increase in price makes people think of Grand i10 and a 20k price cut brings a spike in sales. In practical terms, they are doing what this particular segment needs. Doing the same in premium segments do give you negative points, but this is the price sensitive segment and here every 1000 bucks do matter.

They are in the market to make profits and not do social service after all. BTW Tata group is on the top when it comes to social service too.

[Karthik Chandra]

Originally Posted by Sheel

, but offering something/feature at the time of launch and then deleting it without any prior notice/information is sly.

Originally Posted by vibbs

The fact is we as a forum need to bring this up and call a spade for what it is, A spade.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Respectfully, I disagree. Tata needs to be shamed here (Please read the next part too.) Unlike the Santro (which is not offering certain features,) the Tata is offering them in initial versions and then cutting the feature in the later version.

Agreed with you and many others who have pointed out the flaws. TATA shouldn't be doing this.



But forum members who are bashing TATA in this thread, the DurAlloy thread and the harrier thread haven't commented on the Nexon 5 star thread. That thread is stuck at a mere 8 pages while the other threads keep on running (bashing continues).

While we point out the flaws and we also need to promote good aspects. I feel, As a forum we have have the responsibility to promote safe vehicles.

People have taken time out of their schedule to check out the Harrier and point out the flaws that were reported multiple times earlier but failed to comment on a thread which describes a big moment in Indian Automotive history, I wonder why?
I'm sure there will be more people who have shared this thread than the Nexon 5 star thread.

There is a clear bias when it comes to TATA & Mahindra, the marazzo 4 star thread too is not active.

I request forum members who are pointing out the flaws & bashing to also give TATA credit where its due. Comment and share the Nexon 5 star thread too. That is a great achievement by TATA.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Let's both of us, then, agree to the point that if they haven't offered this rear wheel cladding right from the day one, we wouldn't have had any issues. Right?

Yes.

Originally Posted by VKumar

What is a bigger cheating than offering Indians the cars which are phased off or have a poorer chassis? Did those manufactuers do that with a notice or any prior information? They were exposed by NCAP bodies, right?

It is a consumer's choice to buy a car which is not safe but a feature deletion...? This is not about the cladding, the smart things who first thought that a particular feature should be there and then later decide, that it should be deleted to save few pennies. I don't know who is the loser here, the consumer or the manufacturer [and not only TML].

I know there is a disclaimer that feature deletions/additions can be done without any prior notice, but it is the planning and execution of it which I will blame and not just the greed to save few pennies.

No one asked them for the cladding, they should have avoided it at the very first day, what made them add that?

Onus falls [somewhat] on manufacturer on educating car buying populace about safety and Tata's new video which attacks MUL's kitna deti hai is bringing in some change.

Originally Posted by VKumar

Maruti has FE, Hyundai has NVH and fit + finish. If Tata is losing market share. What will they focus on? They have all the rights to save their USP. Don't they?

Take this scenario, their USP is price and the segment which they are competing in; is highly price sensitive.

I defer, Tata makes competent cars, which are safe, the diesels are good, the ride is comfortable and the brakes are sorted.

They lack [a lot] in QC [quality control] and in their service experience, especially up in North and East. Have heard Pune/Bangalore to offer good service.

Originally Posted by Karthik Chandra

There is a clear bias when it comes to TATA & Mahindra, the marazzo 4 star thread too is not active.

I request forum members who are pointing out the flaws & bashing to also give TATA credit where its due. Comment and share the Nexon 5 star thread too. That is a great achievement by TATA.

I drive a Scorpio and this very thread (Mahindra's poor planning & conceptualisation of new product launches) was started by me, I still drive a Scorpio and would advise the TUV 300+ or XUV or Hexa if one doesn't want a 4WD.

There are always two sides of a coin. Few people would like to buy an indigenous product, but few wouldn't touch it as the past experience wasn't positive for them. Tata & Mahindra, both have made positive strides towards quality and finesse but they are yet to reach that level yet, we can not deny this. Below par service experience is a major blow in an ownership experience.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by Karthik Chandra

There is a clear bias when it comes to TATA & Mahindra, the marazzo 4 star thread too is not active.

I request forum members who are pointing out the flaws & bashing to also give TATA credit where its due. Comment and share the Nexon 5 star thread too. That is a great achievement by TATA.

Feature-deletion is not cool; the members have reacted in similar manner when Ford did it with the Ecosport a few years back.

OT: The same biased forum members have voted Tata and Mahindra cars as the COTY for 5 years (out of 10), that too with Tata leading the pack (3 wins). The so-called step-child Marazzo was the winner in 2018, and the other ill-treated models Nexon and Hexa gathered good percentage of votes in 2017!

[RaghuVis]

Are we finally time travelling?
Looks Like I suddenly went back in time to 2018 looking at the reactions of people. Don't understand why people have to again and again attack TATA or again and again Defend TATA. Most of the comments that both sides are giving have been written in this specific thread over and over in the previous pages. There is no value addition happening except the obvious important point on what customers are going to be missing out without them knowing.

The only thing I see in this stupid exercise is:
Every deleted feature is a loss to customer. Period.
If it was not a loss, there was no reason for that to be present in the first place.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by Sheel

I thought Tata Motors is leading the industry by example, now that is a good example set by them for others to follow.

Competition isn't offering 5 star NCAP cars as well, why is Tata offering it? Tata is offering the top end variant with an AT, that is a good example, but offering something/feature at the time of launch and then deleting it without any prior notice/information is sly.

Originally Posted by su1978

Without any offence to anyone on this forum, i have found that there is a certain biased attitude towards the best sellers in indian market. This biased nature is a reflection of Indian car buying public. Maruti/Hyundai may keep on cutting costs and reducing features and offering coffins, but if it is done by any other manufacturer, knives are out and everyone starts badmouthing them. On the other side, these market favorites will even offer a car with 3 wheels and we will have buyers/experts favoring them with excuse like "what an innovative way to control cost. Less use of one tyre will help reduce carbon footprints."

As far as the build quality goes, entire india is aware about the tin cans that maruti makes. But we still have the largest number of members on this forum who will buy Maruti/Hyundai eyes closed and will think 5 times before buying any other brand. In place of Tiago colliding with Tata 407, had it been a maruti, all the occupants would have been dead.

Originally Posted by VKumar

Dear GTO, before we directly start calling them 'cheap' all out (For Hexa it's fine, but here I find it too strong a message), don't we need to analyse what is there on offer in the product itself and what the competition is offering?

Aren't we talking of the same brand which is still selling us a better built (Relative term, Santro and Wagon R in question) car, which recently got the addition of ABS as a standard fitment?

I think there is a mob mentality that is prevalent, and more so of late when the manufacturer has clearly taken rapid strides. More importantly has been steadfast in prioritising safety as a manufacturer from day one in the game.

There is a slow but steady awakening in the public that Tata cars a safer and better built than the biggest sellers out there. Rather have that than create lighter cars and provide 'features'.

Threads in relation to the precarious safety record of India's largest auto maker and people's frustration regarding the same is hidden away from the popular 'Indian Car Scene' thread onto pages like 'Safety'. Would be interesting to see the more widespread response had it been on the same page as this thread.

Say anymore and the next thing you know one risks being banned!

[Karthik Chandra]

Originally Posted by vb-san

Feature-deletion is not cool; the members have reacted in similar manner when Ford did it with the Ecosport a few years back.

I have agreed to it, here

Originally Posted by Karthik Chandra

Agreed with you and many others who have pointed out the flaws. TATA shouldn't be doing this.

Originally Posted by vb-san

OT: The same biased forum members have voted Tata and Mahindra cars as the COTY for 5 years (out of 10), that too with Tata leading the pack (3 wins). The so-called step-child Marazzo was the winner in 2018, and the other ill-treated models Nexon and Hexa gathered good percentage of votes in 2017!

Agree with the facts but this doesn't prove what I said was wrong. The Nexon 5 star thread is stuck at 8 pages but the rest of them are running at full steam. My point is let's point out the flaws while also giving credit where its due. Do you think people surfing would have noticed the 5 star thread as much as this thread?

And those who have bashed TATA (rightly so) in whichever thread possible didn't appreciate TATA for the stupendous achievement.

People took the pain to check out the Harrier in person and report but they didn't have anything to comment on the 5 star thread? I still wonder why?

[RM Motorsports]

May be this is the result of loss Tata Motors has made recently. Tata Motors’ December quarter loss of Rs 26,961 crore took the market by surprise. It was the highest-ever quarterly loss in India Inc's history.

It reminds me of the classic American Airlines / United Airlines Case study

"In the 1980s, Robert Crandall, then head of the American airlines, cleverly calculated that if you removed just one olive from every salad served to passengers, nobody would notice … and the airline would save $100,000 a year"

"United Airlines, for instance, got rid of those "refresher" towels on most short journeys, cut back on in-flight videos and removed grapefruit juice from its bar menus — it's less popular than orange juice — the airline would save $200 million a year"

[swiftnfurious]

Not sure why TATA is a touchy subject, always. It's funny that TATA realized (as per the justification) that something is un-wanted after launching it initially. Second, how much does such things cost? I happily replaced my Swift's wheel cladding after it was ruined and paid a 1000/- or so because I liked that extra bit of feeling premium (or not-so-cheap). What's a Rs. 1000/- in terms of EMI for 5 years for a customer in that segment?

The collective thought here is not to shortchange the customer by deleting the features, but do a price hike as required. If not, keep these as accessories (from the launch) which customers can buy. And yes, Hyundai is super cheap if they also delete features - guess it was a similar feedback on Creta after the launch (on not offering some features for the segment) - if anyone wants to pull up the official review. And then Ford Endeavour case - where they have been adding / deleting features (which now is under the Ford top boss's check to contain).

Is team-bhp biased against TATA? Below threads will be an eye opener for those who wish to.

• I remember reading a thread on how Ford Ecosport features were deleted and price hiked at the same time. After team-bhp report, the price was re-adjusted. Thread for reference.
  
  https://www.team-bhp.com/news/ford-e...iants-lose-kit
  
  
• Honda City thread on how the quality has gone down.
  
  https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...e-anymore.html (Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?)
  
  
• Innova Crysta thread on niggles & water seepage
  
  https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...va-crysta.html (Niggles & issues with the Toyota Innova Crysta)
  
  https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...ol-gone-8.html (Water leakage in my new Innova Crysta - where has Toyota's famed quality control gone?)
  
  
• Mahindra XUV 500 niggles thread.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...tions-285.html (Mahindra XUV500 niggles & solutions)

And all these products are / were best sellers consistently for a good time (not just one or two months by fluke).

My inference - WE ONLY SEE WHAT WE WANT TO SEE.

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

[list][*]I remember reading a thread on how Ford Ecosport features were deleted and price hiked at the same time. After team-bhp report, the price was re-adjusted. Thread for reference.

https://www.team-bhp.com/news/ford-e...iants-lose-kit

I believe in it's the choice of words used that irks members.

We didn't see a thread title saying "Why is Ford deleting features and increasing prices?" The information is inside the official review of the Ford Ecosport as the 3974th post in the thread.

What you see is what you get. I have already mentioned that I disagree with Tata's trend of deleting features after they had been provided.