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Old 31st October 2018, 09:00   #16
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One crore cars in NCR each drinking about 2 liters of fuel a day is a Rs 6-9K crore economy. PUC certification would be about a Rs. 150-200 crore economy. Maintenance and service would add between Rs. 15,000 to 20,000 crores, if not, more.

But, with 700 crore liters or more fuel getting burnt a year, private vehicles in NCR emit more than 1,400,00,00,000 kg of carbon di-oxide. (a liter of Petrol or diesel results in 2.XX Kg C02). Till BS VI comes into effect, the figure would continue to rise.


But, what does the SC proclamation say about CNG/LPG vehicles?
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Old 31st October 2018, 09:33   #17
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

Guys, I have criticized this move earlier, but after continually reading about the pathetic pollution levels of our metro cities, I am becoming increasingly inclined to take older cars out of them. It doesn't mean they will die = no. Car penetration levels in India are woefully low and there will be ample demand for these used cars outside of the big cities.

BS emission norms are getting continually stricter with time. And it will always be the case. Example = BSVI is also not far away. On a whole, we can say that the lower the average age of the car on the road, the cleaner they are.

Considering how the pollution levels have gotten drastic in Delhi, I am changing my vote and supporting the ban on old cars.
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Old 31st October 2018, 09:44   #18
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

This trend of judiciary overstepping and imposing decisions which have huge impact is disturbing. In case of the government taking decisions, there is an accountability and people can vote them out in the next election.
My 14 year old Forester produces far lesser emission than the prescribed level and is in great shape. It is a pity if such vehicle has to be scrapped.
If an entire lifespan of a vehicle is restricted to 10-15 years, it will have huge impact on the sale, release value. Probably cars should be made less durable to reduce the extra burden. Probably all this will result in faster adoption of the EVs (anyone smells lobbying?)
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Old 31st October 2018, 11:13   #19
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

I agree that drastic situation calls for drastic measures and pollution in Delhi has reached that level. But I would have liked if court has taken holistic view and acted on all major causes of pollution. Pollution from emission of vehicles is just one part of the problem. Simply banning cars and not providing any incentive to those owners is not complete justice. Govt can provide some incentive to those who will scrap their car and go for purchase of less polluting vehicles.
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Old 31st October 2018, 11:30   #20
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

If this kicks-off, do we have enough scrap yards to house the volume of vehicles that are over 10 years old? So, if I have a 15 lakh car currently, which is 8 years old, then, after 2 years, I have to re-plan and buy another
Would we be getting any money on our 10 year old scrapped car or would it only be the weight of the metal?

On the lighter side:
They could probably ban all forms of motorized transport in majorly polluted areas and re-introduce our bullock carts. That way we can, I think, ensure drastic drop in pollution levels.
But then, they have to provide us designated parking spots with access to water. Fodder\grass can be transported in the bullock cart itself. We get free manure too.
For ICE - In Cart Entertainment, the cart driver could sing and we could also join-in.
Additional attractions could be - wifi enabled.
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Old 31st October 2018, 11:37   #21
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

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Originally Posted by deadguy25 View Post
Would we be getting any money on our 10 year old scrapped car or would it only be the weight of the metal?
Since the body of the car will be good enough for another 10 years, they should consider allowing the modifications on the engine (and related parts which determine emission level) to meet the prevailing standards. Depending on the condition of the car, this might mean either swapping with the new engine altogether or simply changing parts like catalytic converter, intake systems etc. And yes they should allow converting your car in to an EV
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Old 31st October 2018, 11:38   #22
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

Another way of doing this would be to decrease the scope to inner Delhi for now, and make that area a 'Green Zone'. This area could be defined as that part of the city bound by the inner ring road or something. In the green zone, only BSIV and above cars allowed, with denoted by a particular sticker which is to be put onto the windshield. For Delhi, BSIV emission norms seems to have been implemented from 2010 onward, which sounds perfect. This would incentivise owners to bring only the cleanest vehicles to the city center. Later on, that 'zone' can be expanded, radially outwards. A separate 'blue' or 'green' sticker could be allowed for hybrids and electric cars which would come with certain benefits like free parking. This would again force people to buy cleaner cars, along with 'Cash for Clunkers' type scheme.

But then the thing about Delhi is that, the city is so royally screwed in terms of pollution and we are so far down the road that even a blanket ban on all ICE engine-powered motorized transport in the city does not sound ridiculous.

I look at the pollution levels in certain developed cities and the alarmist tones with which their city administrations talk about it, and I chuckle. 'Highly polluted' cities in Western Europe like Stuttgart and Madrid has PM10 and PM2.5 levels equal to probably that of Lodhi Gardens.

Anyway, it is a grave problem, and it needs for a thorough solution which should take into account not just private LMVs, but also two-wheelers, buses, commercial transport and non-vehicular pollution.
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Old 31st October 2018, 11:39   #23
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

It is good to be concerned about pollution caused by vehicles but the issue is- why do private vehicle owners have to bear the brunt always. In gurgaon all the shared autos create visible pollution with impunity.

A lot of pollution is created at traffic jams which are caused due to faulty road design or poor implementation of traffic rules (RTR and Rangpuri flyover on NH8 while exiting T3 are good examples).

Last but not the least, the pollution during the winter months is caused by our holy cows aka the farmers who can do as they please.

The judges or the govt officials don't go into correcting the root causes but only pick the low hanging fruits. After all, they don't have to invest their own money to buy new cars. The taxpayers (like us) buy it for them whenever their vehicle gets old so that they can continue passing orders which don't affect them in any way.
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Old 31st October 2018, 11:40   #24
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

Pollution is a multi-faceted problem with a more complex solution than just banning old vehicles.

Solution at a minimum:
  1. The rampant construction needs to be slowed down and the green cover needs to be improved
  2. Adequate vehicle maintenance needs to become the law. The amount of pollution caused by ill-maintained vehicles running and breaking down (resultant traffic jams) would be higher than old vehicles.
  3. The infrastructure projects need to be sped up to allow a smoother flow of vehicles.
  4. The annual burning of crops needs to be stopped. As the odd-even scheme proved, reducing vehicles did zilch for the pollution. There was far more wafting in from Punjab than the cars in Delhi.

On the judgement itself:
  • Will the government be refunding the road tax already collected for the last 5 years of the current approved life of all vehicles?
  • There needs to be a proper vehicle disposal/scrapping policy, else we are just moving the problem set to a different location.
  • If the ban is spread across India, this will likely be the end of diesel cars in India. Not many will buy knowing that the life is shorter by 33%

Last edited by varunsangal : 31st October 2018 at 11:42. Reason: Added reasoning.
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Old 31st October 2018, 11:46   #25
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Blaming vehicles for this issue is a joke. They forget construction activity which generates pollution and dust, Diesel generators, commercial vehicles still plying through Delhi due to delays in completing peripheral roads etc.
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Old 31st October 2018, 11:58   #26
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

Was it IIT kanpur which published a report in the early 2010s? LMVs were found to contribute only 10 or 15% of the overall pollution. Heavy commercial transport vehicles, the Telecom sector (with diesel gensets to backup every tower), Construction - these are the urban Air Quality killers.

This also brings to mind San Francisco's very own air pollution problem decades ago. They found that gas-powered lawnmowers were contributing a great chunk to the problem. Gardening equipment are still a pollution concern in California, in fact.
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Old 31st October 2018, 12:07   #27
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

As other have said, pollution control needs to address all leading causes, in order to make a substantive difference.

But, just on vehicular pollution, there could be two reasons to stop a vehicle from plying:

1) The emissions standard it met when new is itself not good enough now
2) The vehicle is polluting beyond the emissions standard it was supposed to meet

For #1: banning of vehicles should have been specified in terms of the emissions norms a vehicle met from the factory. Example: BS2 and earlier diesel cars are not OK, but India-2000 and later petrol cars are OK (we are talking particulate emissions here as our primary problem in NCR). Would have been a more scientific approach than '10 / 15 years'. We do not even know how these ages were arrived at. Were these the cut-off for certain emissions norms kicking in? Since 2 years have passed since the initial NGT decision, did newer emissions norms come-in in 2008 (10 years in the past, measured from 2018), which may be acceptable?

For #2: it is easy to get a PUC while being out of compliance. PUC certificates are issued even when the test equipment is non-functional. Dependable PUC testing is a basic pillar to control vehicular emissions. We should be reinforcing this pillar. I do not see any efforts towards that.

At the end of the day (and at the risk of sounding like a broken record), such decisions are what we would get when we depend on the Judiciary to guide and run the country. Adapting the laws and rules to changing scenarios is the job of the legislature and the executive, both of which seem to be more interested in politics than governance.

Last edited by vipul_singh : 31st October 2018 at 12:12.
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Old 31st October 2018, 12:14   #28
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Since the body of the car will be good enough for another 10 years, they should consider allowing the modifications on the engine (and related parts which determine emission level) to meet the prevailing standards. Depending on the condition of the car, this might mean either swapping with the new engine altogether or simply changing parts like catalytic converter, intake systems etc. And yes they should allow converting your car in to an EV
Yes, this point is totally agreeable. But again, EV, will lack the turbo of fluidic verna :(. But then, it is better than scrapping it altogether.
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Old 31st October 2018, 12:22   #29
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

I too support banning of old vehicles, but with a good scrapping policy in place.
Government in partnership with the manufacturer should buy back the old cars and give benefits in buying/replacing the car with a new one. This should involve good evaluation of the vehicle, tax benefits on scrapping the vehicle, re-use/recycle the old vehicle by the manufacturer to comply with emission norms,etc.
The Supreme court, in addition to banning the old vehicle should also direct to govt to form such policy and implement it at the earliest.
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Old 31st October 2018, 12:28   #30
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Default Re: Supreme Court bans 15-year old petrol & 10-year old diesel vehicles in Delhi-NCR

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Originally Posted by rish_arora View Post
I too support banning of old vehicles, but with a good scrapping policy in place.
Government in partnership with the manufacturer should buy back the old cars and give benefits in buying/replacing the car with a new one. This should involve good evaluation of the vehicle, tax benefits on scrapping the vehicle, re-use/recycle the old vehicle by the manufacturer to comply with emission norms,etc.
The Supreme court, in addition to banning the old vehicle should also direct to govt to form such policy and implement it at the earliest.
And what about those people who are maintaining their old cars in top condition due to the emotional sentiments attached to their cars. Should they bear the brunt of an ill placed reform policy of the government. The old cars are running happily elsewhere in the world whereas we don't even have a good policy in place to allow those who want to run their old cars be kept on the road. There should be a well defined policy in place to allow those who want to run their old cars on the road within margins of safety and those who wish to upgrade have a good return on investment being given to them.

Regards,
Subhra
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