[Dhiwakar92]

Growing up in Saudi Arabia, I lamented visiting India for many reasons, one of which was the car scene. Back then, I used to see only Ambassadors and Maruti 800s. If I were really lucky, I'd maybe see a Honda, Opel or heck some german car. In Saudi Arabia however, smooth wide roads were home to some big American land yachts, Japanese SUVs like the Land Cruiser, German sedans and some South Korean cars as well, it was always good see that variety.

Now however, the gap between cars sold in India and elsewhere has reduced but it still leaves a lot to be desired. One of the biggest bummers as a car fan is just how expensive cars in India, I always find a better deal for the INR 10-12 Lakhs I'm willing to spend in other countries than in India.

Although Indian cities, especially metros are bursting at the seams, I feel the government needs to reduce the taxes on cars significantly for the following reasons.

1. It will increase demand and allow people to upgrade to a higher segment.
The middle class in India when compared to the middle class in other countries has always had it pretty bad. We pay taxes but we don't get much in return. How about rewarding us ?

2. The argument that having more cars on the road will only exacerbate the traffic situation in cities is something I'm not buying. If you take Bangalore for example, the situation today is so bad, I'm not sure if it could get any worse and even if it did, I think most people have become numb to the situation and/or have accepted it as their fate.

3. While this doesn't count as a reason, I'm personally quite frustrated that folks in other countries who have the same kind of budget I have for a car get to choose from a larger basket of cars and from one or even two segments higher.

Do I really have it good in India in terms of the cars that I get to choose from or are 99.9% of countries out there better than us in this regard ? If they are, is there anything in particular that we're just better at ?

I'm talking purely from a consumer's point of view . I'm not talking about infrastructure, social schemes etc. in which we'd figure right at the bottom of the list.

I'm not trying to be negative or pessimistic even though my post might give off that vibe. I'd love to be proven wrong as that would make me happy.

[V.Narayan]

^^^^^
Many may join the chorus with you about all that sucks in India and the tax on cars etc. But honestly is a greater variety of cars and cheaper cars the most pressing problem or highest priority in India. Are there other more urgent and important issues to be addressed. As for taxes I am in the minority who believe goods like cars that are largely consumed by the top 2% to 5% of our population should be taxed as a source of revenue for the Govt. The Govt needs the revenue and there are constraints of where all they can raise taxes from. Our focus needs to be on public transport which we are far behind on.

[landcruiser123]

I quite agree with V.Narayan here. If only the top 2% population uses something, it should be taxed heavily. Indians can survive without cars in most regions as we have weather which allows us to ride two-wheelers. Imagine doing that in Minnesota in the US.

Also, India should not repeat the mistake US did by giving cars to most citizens. Japan and Western Europe mostly spent on building good public transport, but US built major interstates- which is now a pain in most cities. Cities in the US are trying to build public transport now. I'm not saying London is traffic free, but compared to a resident of LA, an average Londoner has access to a good network of buses, trains and taxis and doesn't need to always drive.

Originally Posted by Dhiwakar92

Now however, the gap between cars sold in India and elsewhere has reduced

Every market is unique. Even the US vs Western Europe is so different.

But yes, cars in India have got much better than what they were 15 years ago. Part of the reason our growth has been rapid is the liberalization in 1991.

1. It will increase demand and allow people to upgrade to a higher segment.
The middle class in India when compared to the middle class in other countries has always had it pretty bad. We pay taxes but we don't get much in return.

Inequality is huge in the country. I don't want it to worsen. The government won't allow the middle class to escape the burden of taxes and rightly so, it shouldn't. What the government should do is focus on education so that the middle class expands and they can eventually reduce tax rates.

Let's not discuss the (mis)spending of taxpayer money in India.

2. The argument that having more cars on the road will only exacerbate the traffic situation in cities is something I'm not buying. If you take Bangalore for example, the situation today is so bad...

Commute times are terrible in urban India.
Refer this: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...-now-what.html (Getting plum job offers from Bangalore, but worried about moving there because of traffic. Now what?)

Do I really have it good in India in terms of the cars that I get to choose from or are 99.9% of countries out there better than us in this regard ? If they are, is there anything in particular that we're just better at ?

India's car market is better than ever in terms of choice now. I wouldn't say 99.0 % of the countries are better than us.
We're good at encouraging local manufacturing and also milking the Auto Industry for max profits.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by Dhiwakar92

Now however... us ?

This is definitely a prick point. And it doesn't end there. When I got my Innova serviced last time, the total tax amount was 19% of the bill. Am still wondering how it helped the consumer. This is apart from the amount paid as tax while buying the car and getting it registered. Are there any real benefits for the one who is paying tax ? Its applicable to even two wheeler service. Since 2002 am getting my vehicles including two wheeler and four wheeler at authorized service centers. In 2002 it was Bajaj Spirit, now its mostly cars. There was one or the other tax as far as my memory serves me and close to two decades now (17 years) I am yet to know what exactly did the consumer get against the taxes levied while purchasing product or getting a service.

Originally Posted by Dhiwakar92

2. The ... fate.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

India...always drive.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Our focus needs to be on public transport which we are far behind on.

Automotive industry employs a huge workforce and contributes a lot in India's GDP (close to 9% ?). Urban chaos is increasing, infrastructure has crumbled down due to sheer number of vehicles but we cant do without this sector. What is possible way out to reduce or control number of vehicles, save energy and time, while expanding the industry and its contribution to GDP. Public transport, its wide reach are two critical parameters for our nation. Scalability of such projects can be measured ?

Originally Posted by Dhiwakar92

3. While...just better at ?

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

As for taxes I am in the minority who believe goods like cars that are largely consumed by the top 2% to 5% of our population should be taxed as a source of revenue for the Govt. The Govt needs the revenue and there are constraints of where all they can raise taxes from.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Cars in India have got much better than what they were 15 years ago.
..The government won't allow the middle class to escape the burden of taxes and rightly so, it shouldn't.

Are we getting quality ? My daily drive is a car that has 0/5 safety rating i.e 2015 Swift VXi with no airbags or ABS. Are we getting better infrastructure ? Some toll booths are nothing short of horror story and so are toll rates. 2005 Baleno 1.6 we had would score 0/5 in safety tests. 10 years I dont think the product quality got better.

In 1998 we had Indica that had independent rear suspension which in my view is better set up than semi independent twist beam. How many cars under Rs. 10 lakh have superior suspension set ups ? Baleno, Esteem, Optra also got all round McPherson strut setup.
New Santro and Wagon R have seats which are not as good as their predecessors. Not sure of safety ratings. Technological innovations haven't advanced more than MPFI (thanks to Euro-2/BS-II) and now ABS + airbag is likely to be made standard. Santro Xing and Santro's new incarnation get basically the same engine.

Technology trickled down due to emission norms and will do so again I guess with upcoming emission norms. Don't think we made such huge inroads for majority of the car buyers as far as technology or product quality goes.

I repeat, high taxes are OK if we are getting atleast quality product and service against the same. And from an enthusiast point of view, the options are further limited. Cant forget Ikon, Baleno, City, Esteem MPFI, Fiesta 1.6S.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

If only the top 2% population uses something, it should be taxed heavily. Indians can survive without cars in most regions as we have weather which allows us to ride two-wheelers. Imagine doing that in Minnesota in the US.

February hasn't ended yet, and I have to switch on A/C in my car. Imagine the situation in summers and during rainy season when its humid too. Add the factor of safety and two wheelers wont strike logic as hard. This is not a practical way out. Even if there is public transport 500 mtrs. from my place, in summers, I cant use it. Walking 500 mtrs in that heat would mean an individual would be drenched in sweat. Infact, colder nations have a higher probability of using public transport than India in my view.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

We're good at encouraging local manufacturing and also milking the Auto Industry for max profits.

Is this sustainable ? High taxes are there to generate tax revenue or to deter others from getting cars ?

[Malyaj]

Our problem is not that our tax rates are high. Our problem is that the tax net is not wide enough and the government spends too much money to collect money. One can keep asking and hoping for lower taxes for everything but eventually the government needs to fill its kitty one way or the other. Those complaining about higher VAT or any tax that is levied at the time of sales should understand that indirect taxes (such as VAT or toll), are actually fair taxes because they are only levied on the person buying the product, rich or poor. If government was to reduce its revenue from indirect taxes, it would have to resort to increasing direct taxes such as Income Tax/ Capital Gains Tax to fill the gap. Which as you know is paid by a miniscule % of the population. Which one would you prefer?

Also, the prevailing wisdom is that the middle class is paying for the rest of the country. This is not entirely true. Indirect taxes are paid at the time of sale (whether you buy a toothpaste or a car) and these are paid by everyone. In 2017-18 the indirect tax collection was Rs 7.7 Lakh crore. The Direct tax collection was Rs 10 Lakh crores of which corporate income tax was about Rs 5 lakh crore and personal income tax was about Rs 5 lakh crore or about 28% of total tax collection. If we include state taxes, which are entirely indirect taxes, the contribution of personal income taxes to total taxes would be even lower.

The middle class also uses more facilities (we hog the roads & toll plazas, park on the roadside for free, use water and electricity more wastefully and have a larger carbon footprint than the poorer classes). If you want to travel to Ladakh and Sikkim and post those beautiful travelogues, you will first need roads to get there (and not all of them tolled). Our poor dhobi and maid is not making those trips and it is fair they don’t pay for it.

Complaining about poor infrastructure and nightmarish traffic and also about lack of very competent cars is like complaining about not having a 4K capable TV when there is no 4K content and broadband speeds don’t support 4K streaming. The super rich, when they buy airplanes for personal use, pay about 20% import duty, far lower than what buyers of imported cars pay. They grudge even this and try to import it as an aircraft meant primarily for charter purposes, which attracts nil duty. One can never be happy if one doesn’t want to.

Yes, for what we pay, we can get a better car in many countries. At the same time, our money buys much more food, many more kms on the highway, barring some cities more square feet, more electricity, more talk time and more healthcare. We can’t have everything.

Middle East countries are the playground of the rich and the cars one sees there shouldn’t be compared. I haven’t been to the US, but have travelled to quite a few countries in Europe. I see plenty of utilitarian cars there (even saw Altos in small towns in Hungary and Czech Republic, Wagon Rs in Slovenia, outdated Fiats and Renaults in Italy etc etc). With the exception of Germany which has a significant population of Audis, Mercedes and BMWs for obvious reasons, other countries tend to have a good mix of all segments.

Have a look a the list of most popular cars in Europe in 2018:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/i...%80%93-country

Every industry believes it is the most crucial to the economy and will throw statistics to prove its point. Attend trade shows and you will see industry titans forever lobbying for lower taxes. Whom should the government pamper and whom should it milk?

I am obviously batting for the underdog here because there will be too much government bashing on such threads

[A M]

Originally Posted by Dhiwakar92

Now however, the gap between cars sold in India and elsewhere has reduced but it still leaves a lot to be desired. One of the biggest bummers as a car fan is just how expensive cars in India, I always find a better deal for the INR 10-12 Lakhs I'm willing to spend in other countries than in India.
....

3. While this doesn't count as a reason, I'm personally quite frustrated that folks in other countries who have the same kind of budget I have for a car get to choose from a larger basket of cars and from one or even two segments higher.

Do I really have it good in India in terms of the cars that I get to choose from or are 99.9% of countries out there better than us in this regard ? If they are, is there anything in particular that we're just better at?

I would say we are still better off than our neighbouring countries. The humble i10 costs 29 lakh rupees (~18 lakh INR) in Nepal.

The only gripe I have is the quality of cars that we get. Watered-down, made for India crap, Maruti's pathetic build quality and Renault-Nissan's misadventures like Capture and Kicks is unacceptable.

Also, it would be better if global models are introduced. Success of V-Cross has proved that models like Ford Ranger, LC75 etc. can find many buyers in our country.

[noopster]

New Zealand is an expensive country as well but they have a system where they import used cars from abroad (mostly Japan since RHD) that are usually in excellent condition and you even get a reasonable selection to choose from.

Even if you cant afford to buy a car outright, good rental options are widely available and you can manage fine with a little planning.

India unfortunately has neither. Cars keep getting more and more expensive and buying a new car in a higher segment makes absolutely no sense these days. Rentals are typically shabbily maintained and sometimes hardly roadworthy. The used car route is fraught with pitfalls.

Despite wanting better I am currently making do with an 8 year old VW as my primary ride and a 13 year old Swift as the second car. Sigh!

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

^^^^^
Many may join the chorus with you about all that sucks in India and the tax on cars etc. But honestly is a greater variety of cars and cheaper cars the most pressing problem or highest priority in India. Are there other more urgent and important issues to be addressed. As for taxes I am in the minority who believe goods like cars that are largely consumed by the top 2% to 5% of our population should be taxed as a source of revenue for the Govt. The Govt needs the revenue and there are constraints of where all they can raise taxes from. Our focus needs to be on public transport which we are far behind on.

Does the 'many' include your post here?

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...ml#post4549563

Just like how the air show incident connected with you for personal reasons, there are others who connect with several other topics for their own personal reasons. Why not let them rant in peace if you expect the same as well?

People here know the concept of tax and how Governments need them. It's akin to how cars need petrol. People aren't asking why should I put petrol in the car. People are asking, why isn't the car going as far as I was promised it would go?

Anyways, coming back to the topic. It's a very simple answer. Prosperity and affordability. You'd have more choices when more people are prosperous and can afford the choices.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Malyaj

Also, the prevailing wisdom is that the middle class is paying for the rest of the country. This is not entirely true. Indirect taxes are paid at the time of sale (whether you buy a toothpaste or a car) and these are paid by everyone. In 2017-18 the indirect tax collection was Rs 7.7 Lakh crore. The Direct tax collection was Rs 10 Lakh crores of which corporate income tax was about Rs 5 lakh crore and personal income tax was about Rs 5 lakh crore or about 28% of total tax collection. If we include state taxes, which are entirely indirect taxes, the contribution of personal income taxes to total taxes would be even lower.

You are a person after my own heart. You have written lucidly what I have been trying to say for years on this forum with limited success. The so called middle class on T-BHP but actually the top 5% of the country's income earners believe without data that they bear the brunt of taxation in this country. It is a myth they like to pound all the time because 30% or less of their salary is cut at source. They are unwilling to face the facts as it will burst their bubble of "we the burdened who bear the brunt of all taxes".

The middle class also uses more facilities (we hog the roads & toll plazas, park on the roadside for free, use water and electricity more wastefully and have a larger carbon footprint than the poorer classes). If you want to travel to Ladakh and Sikkim and post those beautiful travelogues, you will first need roads to get there (and not all of them tolled). Our poor dhobi and maid is not making those trips and it is fair they don’t pay for it.

Beautifully said. When ever the well to do (which includes all on this forum) grumble "what does our Govt/Country given us" I like to say it has given you almost 7% average growth consistently for 20 years now which is half your career life. The prosperity you enjoy versus your parents is because of that - all boats go up with a rising tide. Would they like to lose out on that?

Yes, for what we pay, we can get a better car in many countries. At the same time, our money buys much more food, many more kms on the highway, barring some cities more square feet, more electricity, more talk time and more healthcare. We can’t have everything.

Thank you Malyaj for saying this to the eternal grumblers. Normally old folks like me are supposed to be the ones criticising 'aaj ka zamana' and eulogizing 'woh din' but I find on social media (T-BHP is my only outlet) it is the young who have it good in a growing economy who are muttering and whining all the time.

All,

In 1982 when I joined the work force at a truck maker one of my first jobs was to collate data to help the company's management answer to the IAS worthies in Delhi as to why the company had committed the cardinal sin of producing more trucks than its licensed capacity in 1978 and why the company should not be penalized financially for it. So much so for helping the GDP. As a part of gathering this data I had to often talk to the plants at Jamshedpur and Pune and for junior flunkies like me there was one designated STD phone in the building where you queued up to make your call. And my starting salary was the equivalent of ~Rs 15,000 today after a MBA from a top school. And some of us grumble today!!

Yes we should demand a better deal from our Govt - always. However it also behooves that we as citizens do our duty - first by simple things like stop throwing stuff on the streets (don't be a saint and say you've never done it).

As for cars. If you measure quality and variety of cars available from 1982 to today and compare any 20 countries you will find that the quality of what is available has improved more in India than in almost any other country - the only comparables will be Russia and East Germany. And we can thank the license raj for a low base to start from. In a country with a greater population than the European Union and North America combined you will find the Maruti at one end and the S-class at the other. If you don't like the so called watered down version don't buy it but you cant bitch about it as there are others who need that cheapened version of Maruti Alto to improve their personal transport from four on a bike!

Originally Posted by kiku007

Just like how the air show incident connected with you for personal reasons, there are others who connect with several other topics for their own personal reasons. Why not let them rant in peace if you expect the same as well?

Exactly. Why not let me rant in peace too.

[A M]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

If you don't like the so called watered down version don't buy it but you cant bitch about it as there are others who need that cheapened version of Maruti Alto to improve their personal transport from four on a bike!

Sir, with all due respect, this is not an excuse to sell unsafe cars with unstable body structures. In my opinion, it is okay to skimp on certain features to in order to provide a product at a certain price but cost cutting on the structural integrity of the car is not acceptable.

[Aaron:)]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

^^^^^
Many may join the chorus with you about all that sucks in India and the tax on cars etc. But honestly is a greater variety of cars and cheaper cars the most pressing problem or highest priority in India. Are there other more urgent and important issues to be addressed. As for taxes I am in the minority who believe goods like cars that are largely consumed by the top 2% to 5% of our population should be taxed as a source of revenue for the Govt. The Govt needs the revenue and there are constraints of where all they can raise taxes from. Our focus needs to be on public transport which we are far behind on.

Completely agreed.

Inequality is huge in India, and cars are still a luxury for most Indians. I agree that they should be treated as sources of tax revenue.

However, I'd also wish for a better tax system for automobiles. For example -
1) The stupid sub-4m rule that has given us nothing but compromised, ugly vehicles with asthmatic engines. The irony is that most car-makers haven't even passed the tax benefits to the consumer.
2) The huge tax on full-hybrids and incentives for EVs, whereas hybrids are feasible and an ideal transition into a cleaner future.

Also, the debate about the dipping quality of cars needs to be taken up with manufacturers and not the government. To an extent the consumer is also to blame. Till the time we keep lapping up unsafe and poorly built Swifts (as an example), companies will keep selling them.

The government doesn't need to reduce taxes. It needs to -
1) Formulate better tax policies
2) Improve utilisation of tax revenue
3) Lay down rules for safety standards in Indian cars (this is already in progress)

[Malyaj]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

All,

In 1982 when I joined the work force at a truck maker one of my first jobs was to collate data to help the company's management answer to the IAS worthies in Delhi as to why the company had committed the cardinal sin of producing more trucks than its licensed capacity in 1978 and why the company should not be penalized financially for it. So much so for helping the GDP. As a part of gathering this data I had to often talk to the plants at Jamshedpur and Pune and for junior flunkies like me there was one designated STD phone in the building where you queued up to make your call. And my starting salary was the equivalent of ~Rs 15,000 today after a MBA from a top school. And some of us grumble today!!

Thank you Sir for the kind words . Coming from seniors such as you it means a lot.

The license-quote-permit raj indeed feels like it was too ridiculous to be true. Of course I was a kid back then and had zero understanding of how it choked the economy. What irked me no end was that Pakistanis gloated about how they drove better cars than us! All that has changed so dramatically now. The car scene as well as my thinking.

It is only a matter of time that basic safety features will become standard across lower variants. Our highways are always improving and making remote areas more accessible and fun to reach for every one. The facilities on the highways are so much better. We have indeed come a long way but the benchmark always tends to be other countries and not our own past. In another 20 years perhaps the current 20 somethings will feel we have come a long way

[tirumalavoleti]

Totally sad to see this pathetic state to collect GST, Cess, VAT, Road Tax on ex show room.

For 10+ lakhs manufacturing cost, customer has to pay 17 lakhs and which has come from 22 lakhs taxed income.

This eventually lead to compromising on RSA, extended warranty which many people wont take.

If the car length crosses 4 mtrs, the tax is atrocious which has lead to segments sub 4 mtr sedans and SUVs.

While its happy to see the sub 4 mtrs helping the people to buy new cars, its leading to compromised products in the form of sub 4mtrs(No offense to any sub 4 mtrs, at the end of day - A car is better than nothing)

A live example of the difference is Sonet and Seltos diesel, which has mere 300 mm difference and technically same car. The on road price differs by 5 lakhs which is nothing but tax.

In this context, customers are loosing, manufacturers are loosing and safety is being compromised.

Coming to public transport, there is no change in the availability and quality over last decade.

It is literally day light robbery on car sales

[TrackDay]

Despite the OP being almost 2 years old, saw this thread only now due to a recent post. I grew up in the middle east. To be honest though I never lamented visiting India. It is home. Always will be . True! Back then you didn't have your regular fast food joints, Cable TV network was still bad, cellular network, Internet was lame etc. The list is long. But I always had fond memories of running in the Vast gardens and lands we owned. Plucking fruits, vegetables in our land. Playing with our cousins, eating all the delicacies our grandparents made for us. No amount of future experience will triumph those memories ! Sorry I went off topic from cars !

Originally Posted by Dhiwakar92

Growing up in Saudi Arabia, I lamented visiting India for many reasons, one of which was the car scene. Back then, I used to see only Ambassadors and Maruti 800s.

I was actually happy to see the ambassadors back then ! Don't know why ? Also I was excited since I could go on two wheeler rides with the seniors. (there were no two wheelers in our community in the middle east, hence these visits meant I could experience that !)

Originally Posted by Dhiwakar92

Now however, the gap between cars sold in India and elsewhere has reduced but it still leaves a lot to be desired. One of the biggest bummers as a car fan is just how expensive cars in India, I always find a better deal for the INR 10-12 Lakhs I'm willing to spend in other countries than in India.

While this doesn't count as a reason, I'm personally quite frustrated that folks in other countries who have the same kind of budget I have for a car get to choose from a larger basket of cars and from one or even two segments higher.

Do I really have it good in India in terms of the cars that I get to choose from or are 99.9% of countries out there better than us in this regard ? If they are, is there anything in particular that we're just better at ?

This is true. You get "less car" for what you are paying here V/S outside. No denying that. However like someone else said you get a lot other things for cheap here. For instance house hold help, Medical bills, affordable rent, parking etc.

Originally Posted by Dhiwakar92

Although Indian cities, especially metros are bursting at the seams, I feel the government needs to reduce the taxes on cars significantly for the following reasons.

I am not sure that is going to happen, Would be happy though if that occurred !

Originally Posted by Dhiwakar92

I'm talking purely from a consumer's point of view . I'm not talking about infrastructure, social schemes etc. in which we'd figure right at the bottom of the list.

I'm not trying to be negative or pessimistic even though my post might give off that vibe. I'd love to be proven wrong as that would make me happy.

There is no wrong vibe here. Everyone has the right to express their experiences. Matter of fact is, I just don't think that the automobile scene here will improve that much, at least in terms of ICE engine era wrt pricing. Although now the options in the luxury/sports market are more, one can never get those vintage/classic cars here due to our limited mass market history . Let us hope the electric revolution can give us what the west offers in terms of EV options.