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Old 1st April 2019, 18:03   #16
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by arindambasu13 View Post
....I happened to casually test drive the Honda City. It took just a couple of drives to make me realise that the refinement, power and drivability of the iVTEC engine was in a different league altogether..
You are absolutely right!! The refinement of Honda City is in a different dimension...and will be appreciated by those who look beyond the ordinary. You have made the right decision. iVTEC is a gem. Even today, my 6 year old iVTEC (AT) drives so smoothly that many a time I wonder if the engine is on or not. Its a pure bliss.
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Old 1st April 2019, 18:38   #17
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

The diminishing value of C2 sedans in simple words is a reflection of ‘people getting older at a very young age’ . What ever the trend is, roads are getting well paved these days, and the underbelly of my Honda City is not scratched even once in the last 78,000 kms on Kerala roads. But for a vast majority driving fun is inferior to underbelly scrapping.

Last edited by pavi : 1st April 2019 at 18:39.
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Old 1st April 2019, 18:57   #18
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

I am one of those who is tilting towards C2 sedan mainly because

1. Sedan is inherently more fuel efficient
2. Better for those having motion sickness - Body roll better contained for rear passengers
3. BS-VI and possible death of diesels(might!!) can make people prefer Sedans. Petrol powered SUV are not sold in good numbers.
4. C2 sedans are definitely making D1 segment sedans endangered
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Old 1st April 2019, 19:01   #19
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by pavi View Post
The diminishing value of C2 sedans in simple words is a reflection of ‘people getting older at a very young age’ .
None of the C2 sedans are properly oriented at a fun driver. All of them are family oriented sedans (specially the suspension setup) - with some options in the C1 segment (Like Tigor JTP, Aspire TDCi, Aspire 1.5AT etc) or hatchback segment (Abarth, Figo TDCi, GT TSi, Baleno RS, etc) being capable enough to take them on anytime. Even the D segment has brilliant performers like the Octavia 1.8 TSi, vRS etc which overshadow the C segmenters properly in terms of performance.

If driving fun is everything - ditch the 4.5m sedan and pick a small JTP, Figo Blu, Aspire, GT TSi or TDi etc. As things stand now - the C2 sedan segment doesn't get any souped up performance variants - and isn't likely to change either.
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Old 1st April 2019, 19:29   #20
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
None of the C2 sedans are properly oriented at a fun driver. All of them are family oriented sedans (specially the suspension setup)

If driving fun is everything - ditch the 4.5m sedan and pick a small JTP, Figo Blu, Aspire, GT TSi or TDi etc. As things stand now - the C2 sedan segment doesn't get any souped up performance variants - and isn't likely to change either.
Apart from FTD factor, premium feel too seems to be missing when compared with sub-4M sedans. Honda city looks premium, but build quality seems on par with other players, Kerb weight too isn't far away from Jazz. Ciaz being lighter than some Hatchback is what kept me away from it, while Verna better engine and quality, but its not very spacious! This leaves only VW, Skoda twins.

On the flip side, one can find plenty of options like safe and practical Nexon, well built Ecosport and other FTD hatchbacks mentioned.

P.S: No offence meant to any of the owners
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Old 1st April 2019, 19:45   #21
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by giri1.8 View Post
Apart from FTD factor, premium feel too seems to be missing when compared with sub-4M sedans. Honda city looks premium, but build quality seems on par with other players, Kerb weight too isn't far away from Jazz. Ciaz being lighter than some Hatchback is what kept me away from it, while Verna better engine and quality, but its not very spacious! This leaves only VW, Skoda twins.
)
Good point, but are you sure the Vento and Rapid have more space than the Nex-gen Verna? I do know that the Ciaz and City beat the Verna hollow in rear space, but I thought the others were having lesser rear space than the Verna.

To be honest, I drive a Fiesta 1.6, but have been driving someone's year-old Verna diesel SX-O, and found its driveability in 3rd gear as good as the Fiesta. To cite an example, I can potter around in 3rd gear at 30 kmpl and revv up to nearly triple digit speeds when needed, without even changing the gear.

Coming back to the main topic, I'd never buy a pseudo-SUV over a sedan. And I'd always prefer a C2 sedan over a C1.
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Old 1st April 2019, 20:25   #22
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by pavi View Post
The diminishing value of C2 sedans in simple words is a reflection of ‘people getting older at a very young age’
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
None of the C2 sedans are properly oriented at a fun driver. All of them are family oriented sedans (specially the suspension setup) - with some options in the C1 segment (Like Tigor JTP, Aspire TDCi, Aspire 1.5AT etc) or hatchback segment (Abarth, Figo TDCi, GT TSi, Baleno RS, etc) being capable enough to take them on anytime. Even the D segment has brilliant performers like the Octavia 1.8 TSi, vRS etc which overshadow the C segmenters properly in terms of performance.

If driving fun is everything - ditch the 4.5m sedan and pick a small JTP, Figo Blu, Aspire, GT TSi or TDi etc. As things stand now - the C2 sedan segment doesn't get any souped up performance variants - and isn't likely to change either.
As you considered suspension set up while giving marks to C2 segment sedans, some of the cars you listed also fail in that department but still are being considered as ‘fun to drive’. Another point to note is all C2 segment sedan suspensions cannot be classified as same. A Ciaz suspension is definitely sad, but a Honda City suspension is truly at a different league in comparison. After using the 4th generation Honda City for last 78,000 kms I can guarantee you that the suspension is not tuned ‘family oriented’.

The main point in my previous comment was about ‘people considering CSUVs more than hatchbacks and sedans’. But at the end of the day, it all comes to ‘to each his own’.

Last edited by pavi : 1st April 2019 at 20:28.
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Old 1st April 2019, 20:50   #23
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

The only uniqueness of a C2 segment car is probably a better 'feel' by virtue of it being bigger. Which brings up it's biggest USP. The boot space. Although all the C1 Segment cars, the City SUV's, the premium hatches all match up to the C2 Segment cars in features, power and premiumness, none of them can really match the boot space C2 Segment car offers. Not only talking about the raw numbers(which may be close for the compact sedans), but more on the carrying capacity. For someone like me who uses the car primarily for long drives, boot space is invaluable.

Just for these reasons I may buy a sedan again. Hopefully a D1 Segment car

And being a pre-owned fan, diminishing values work for me
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Old 1st April 2019, 21:37   #24
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
None of the C2 sedans are properly oriented at a fun driver.
Honda City. Enough said!

The iVTEC is a hoot and can put some expensive cars to shame.
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Old 1st April 2019, 22:54   #25
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

They aren't making new C2 sedans anymore. Vento has been there for years, Same is the case with the Ciaz, the Rapid and the City. I feel, the new shift towards crossovers is because, Car manufacturers have found a new segment which is giving them more return per car. So, why would they now invest in bringing a new C2 sedan. This pattern is to be seen in the international markets too.

I wish one, one car manufacturer does a U turn and brings in a brand new C2 sedan, and maybe an open top version too
If anyone has driven a Fiesta S, or sat in the yester years Baleno for a long distance trip, would know what a Sedan can do. I wish those days come back
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Old 2nd April 2019, 00:04   #26
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by vinya_jag View Post
They aren't making new C2 sedans anymore. Vento has been there for years, Same is the case with the Ciaz, the Rapid and the City. I feel, the new shift towards crossovers is because, Car manufacturers have found a new segment which is giving them more return per car. So, why would they now invest in bringing a new C2 sedan. This pattern is to be seen in the international markets too.
I was thinking the same thing. The C2 segment hasn't had may launches. The last all new product was the Yaris which was overpriced. Before that it was the Verna which did shake up the segment.

The Ciaz, Vento, Rapid and City have all just been receiving updates for years.

Compared to that look at the Compact crossovers and sub 4m sedans. Honda Amaze and all new Dzire have taken the market in sub 4m sedans and the compact SUV segment has had XUV3OO, Nexon, comprehensive Ecosport upgrade, W-RV as launches within last 3 years. Now we have the Hyundai Venue as well.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 08:51   #27
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
None of the C2 sedans are properly oriented at a fun driver.
Not necessary. Depends on what your definition of driving fun is, and it does vary from person to person. For someone like me, who is not overly aggressive in terms of speed/ cornering etc. (but at the same time not a sedate driver), a refined, responsive and creamy petrol engine with a slick gearbox and capable chassis, a la the Honda iVTECs or Suzuki K Series engines etc. give me a very liberal dose of fun and plenty of power, far exceeding my requirements or my driving limits. The TSI engines also provide lots of fun, but I personally did not consider this since I was clear that I wanted a good manual gearbox mated to a powerful engine.

In short, there are feasible options in the C2 segment when it comes to fun to drive vehicles. None of them are extreme performance cars and they are not meant to be so, but they do have their own sets of talents which endow them with fun to drive characteristics.

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Originally Posted by pavi View Post
A Ciaz suspension is definitely sad, but a Honda City suspension is truly at a different league in comparison. After using the 4th generation Honda City for last 78,000 kms I can guarantee you that the suspension is not tuned ‘family oriented’.
Agreed. In my limited driving till date, the City suspension seems to be well balanced between being overly stiff and providing decent amount of ride comfort. No magic carpet this, but acceptable enough at city speeds.

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Originally Posted by avdhesh15 View Post
Honda City. Enough said!

The iVTEC is a hoot and can put some expensive cars to shame.
Hear hear. Just marvelling at the responsiveness of this engine during the past few days of driving this lovely car. Yes, it is not some torque monster nor a 200 BHP+ VRS, for sure, but within my budget and the realms of realistic car-shopping, the iVTEC provides lots of smiles per mile.

Last edited by arindambasu13 : 2nd April 2019 at 08:53.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 09:45   #28
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
All of them are family oriented sedans (specially the suspension setup) - with some options in the C1 segment (Like Tigor JTP, Aspire TDCi, Aspire 1.5AT etc) or hatchback segment (Abarth, Figo TDCi, GT TSi, Baleno RS, etc) being capable enough to take them on anytime. Even the D segment has brilliant performers like the Octavia 1.8 TSi, vRS etc which overshadow the C segmenters properly in terms of performance.

If driving fun is everything - ditch the 4.5m sedan and pick a small JTP, Figo Blu, Aspire, GT TSi or TDi etc.
Well, if someone has a specific budget, wants a certain sense of luxury(relatively speaking) then he is going to look at a certain set of cars, in this case, the C-2 segment. Very rarely are you going to find someone who is going to settle for cars belonging a segment or 2 lower just because of fun to drive factor. And even more rarity is seeing someone spending 5-6L more for getting a car from a segment above.

People are going to have a budget, certain expectation of features/luxury from their cars and the enthusiasts among them are then going to select the car which brings the most smiles to their face. In this case, it is perhaps the Honda City which is going to satisfy an enthusiast who is willing to spend 12L on his car when compared to other options in the same segment.

Thus advising someone who owns a Honda City to go for a Ford Figo/Polo GT is not exactly comparing apples to apples. But someone choosing the City over an equivalent SUV/mini-SUV in the same segment is a fair choice after a fair comparison. And I don't remember anyone saying that driving fun is everything. Though yes, people going for SUVs=people getting old is not something I agree with.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 09:53   #29
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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If in doubt, just look at the variant-wise sales of the Creta. The highest selling variant is the E+ diesel.
Could you give the source for variant-wise sales ? . In Bangalore I see a large number of SX (or higher) variants.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 11:36   #30
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
None of the C2 sedans are properly oriented at a fun driver.
Not quite true, I would think.
The C2 segment's Vento TSi still holds lot of respect among enthusiasts and others alike.

Ofcourse, fun can mean different things to different buyers but am assuming we are equating fun to, largely being peppy and slick in this case.

Quote:
All of them are family oriented sedans (specially the suspension setup)
Quite true.
One of the key reasons (among other things) why family folks are specific about their purchase of a proper C2 segment (and not a compact C1 sedan) is the suspension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post
The only uniqueness of a C2 segment car is probably a better 'feel' by virtue of it being bigger. Which brings up it's biggest USP. The boot space.
Spot-on, Rajeevraj.

This thread somehow, strikes a very personal note, because I have been actually "living" it for the past 8 years (and counting) now !

So, thanks to artemis_fowl for initiating this thread.

Back in 2010, we had bought the C1 Dzire:-

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And one of the primary reasons was the humongous 460+ liter boot space, ofcourse along with other attractions (for lack of any other word) like the national engine of India back in those days.
The quirky design, however, was not something to be proud of.

Circa 2015, we made the transition to the C2 Vento:-

The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)-20190106_102617.jpg

And this time round, one of the primary reasons, was again the boot space. However, to add in the same breath, there were equally important reasons - like the beautifully designed, stylish silhouette + the wonderful DSG (no C1/C2 car had this tech in 2015) + a great diesel engine + just-that-right suspension setup required for those long daily drives and road trips.

Now that my Vento has completed almost 64k km in about 3.5 years, I feel totally vindicated with the purchase decision of buying a proper C2 sedan.

Back in 2015, when we were contemplating various options, we looked at other C2 sedans like the City, Verna, Ciaz and even the C2 SUV such as Creta but none came close to the Vento for reasons mentioned above. There was something or the other which was missing in these options.

Hypothetically speaking, if some of today's crossovers like the XUV300, Nexon or even the compact Ameo (with the DSG) were to be available back in 2015 during our purchase decision, I would have still gone ahead with a car which had good boot space, good AT box (triggered due to horrors of previous manual driving), good/seamless design quotient and yes, a pliant suspension setup.

Which crossover or a compact sedan from the above would fit my choice then? I guess, none.

Now, looking at the future, will I still look forward to buy only a proper sedan (D1/D2 etc.) ? I don't know for sure, since my expectations and choices may change due to family/personal choices and I may end joining the proper SUV brigade.
But a crossover SUV, don't think so.
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