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Old 4th April 2019, 14:35   #46
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

It's funny when people claim that a Honda city is "fun to drive". I found it to be anything but that. The steering was lame and uncommunicative and the suspension setup was uninspiring. I drove it back to back with a ecosport diesel and found the Ford was a lot more fun on the highways and in the ghats it just turned into a rally car! The ivtec although has good driveability but I found it too lazy to build up revs to a point where I just gave up accelerating and put it on cruise control. I guess it's aptly named as "city" then but some of us can't justify buying one for city use and one for highways and another for twisting roads. The Honda IMO is a one trick pony which is a good commuter that can ferry a family in comfort from a to b and that's about it.

Has "fun to drive" taken up a new meaning where we consider slush boxes to be "fun" ? I don't think other than the 1st gen city VTEC Honda has made anything that's fun to drive for a long time in India. Ford and Fiat are still kings in that category (on a budget) with vw/Skoda a close second.

Last edited by nitro.1000bhp : 4th April 2019 at 14:36.
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Old 4th April 2019, 15:18   #47
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Going by absolute numbers - Yes. For practicality, no!

Honda City has 510 litres of bootspace as compared to 402 litres of an SUV like the Hyundai Creta. BUT -

1. Most sedans have a fixed rear seat, and small boot opening (except notchbacks)! So all you get is a box sized volume without any added flexbility.

2. Volume of boot in SUV's are measured upto the parcel shelf - however, it can be removed to transport taller items (like a small plant or cycle for example) when required.
Add to this fact that sedans usually have the linkage that swings the deck lid, and that eats up considerable space too. And most important of all, I have had a huge trouble fitting large boxes through the tiny opening in my father's Honda City - though the boot capacity is actually large.

Say you have a large carton of light things, which will 'technically' fit into the 510L boot, but the narrow opening would not let me put it in. In many such situations, I have wished from the flexibility of an SUV's boot. And yes, once you have decided to fold the rear seats, SUVs and even a hatchback kicks sedans with their practicality.
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Old 4th April 2019, 16:14   #48
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by nitro.1000bhp View Post
The steering was lame and uncommunicative and the suspension setup was uninspiring. I drove it back to back with a ecosport diesel and found the Ford was a lot more fun on the highways and in the ghats it just turned into a rally car! The ivtec although has good driveability but I found it too lazy to build up revs to a point where I just gave up accelerating and put it on cruise control.

Has "fun to drive" taken up a new meaning where we consider slush boxes to be "fun" ?
A lot of people, including much of the demographic who would be in a position of consideration between the City and Ecosport, would not be persons doing majority of their driving on highways. Their typical usage would be 70-80 % city, while the remaining would be occasional highway trips for vacations, and possibly for business. Given this, whether or not a car is more fun on the highway as compared to the city roads becomes a fairly moot issue what matters more is the ease of driving and fun factor within the limited confines of the city. For me, highway driving attributes was pretty much irrelevant when I was choosing between these very two cars, since like most others, most of my driving is in the city.

Also, the City is far from not being fun on a open road. True, it is of lighter build and the steering is less feelsome than that of an Ecosport, but it is certainly not "lame", it is in fact pretty quick and accurate. At the speeds which I restrict myself to on highways, the car has been a riot to drive. When it thus came to decision time for me, the heavy and ponderous Ecosport TDCI was ruled out of contention after numerous test drives, and so was the Dragon engined ES which I found to be pretty underpowered.

And the 1.5 iVTEC is lazy to build revs? Really ?? I highly, highly doubt that, VTECs are some of the most rev -happy engines to be launched in this country, ever. Pretty sure that is the prevalent view among the enthusiast community here.

However, I dont know much about the CVT City, my views are restricted to the manual petrol version, and that one is a blast to drive. The CVT box might possibly be lazy to shift, users can perhaps pitch in here.

Last edited by arindambasu13 : 4th April 2019 at 16:23.
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Old 4th April 2019, 16:33   #49
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

After having been a passive reader of this thread for a while I thought I will chime in with my thoughts as well.

The Sub-4m segment has definitely matured and offers a lot more bang for the buck. Given the current landscape the Amaze and Dzire are very good cars in their own right. I am sure this has eaten a bit of the C2 segment Sedan pie given that the manufacturers have taken the pricing for C2 sedans way too high (except for Ciaz maybe which is still excellent value for money).

Coming to the topic of C-SUV vs C2 Sedan. I for one would not be comfortable trading a C2 Sedan with a sub 4m C-SUV. The space offered by Ciaz and City cannot be matched by a Ecosport or a Nexon - there is still a good difference for the rear seat passengers as well as the boot. Flipping down seats and saying there is more space is not a convincing logic for me. Its overall space: people + luggage together equation for me.

Coming to the topic of a full sized C2 SUV and C2 Sedan then I am thinking the only vehicle that sits in this category and price range is the Creta and possibly the Harrier. Again the Harrier does not come with a Petrol engine which is deterrent for many. The Jeep Compass and the likes are priced way higher.

In my opinion, the market needs some additional choices here in terms of a proper SUV from Honda and lets hope something from Kia as well which can take the Creta Head-on(lets not include BR-V here). Waiting for that day...
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Old 4th April 2019, 16:50   #50
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by arindambasu13 View Post
However, I don't know much about CVT City, my views are restricted to the manual petrol version, and that one is a blast to drive. The CVT box might possibly be lazy to shift, users can perhaps pitch in here.
Well, Apple to apple:

City iVTEC vs Ecosport Dragon-

In city: Dragon is more responsive at low and mid-range, City is more refined. On good open roads, I would prefer city; on real Indian city roads, with start-stop traffic and pot-holes, Ecosport is a "sensible" choice.

Highway: Ecosport is more planted, have better steering response, City is great on straight-line pedal-to-the-metal run. Hard to choose one of these, unless you are the "floor the pedal and go insane" kind of driver (that engine really pulls relentlessly only post 4000RPM - all the way to 6000+. No competition there, except maybe the VW TSI). Hard to prove though, but Ecosport seems better built and hence, safer car on highways.

Point is - the choice between a C2 sedan and CSUVs these day is a very difficult one. There isn't really a straight-forward USP to C2 sedans over CSUVs. no, No doubt CSUVs these days are taken as more practical choice by new car buyers.

Between compact sedans and C2 sedans though - I would never buy any C-sedan over a full sedan like city/verna/vento (except Tigor JTP).

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 4th April 2019 at 17:41. Reason: ES -> Ecosport
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Old 4th April 2019, 18:15   #51
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Well, Apple to apple:

City iVTEC vs Ecosport Dragon-

In city: Dragon is more responsive at low and mid-range, City is more refined. On good open roads, I would prefer city; on real Indian city roads, with start-stop traffic and pot-holes, Ecosport is a "sensible" choice.

Highway: Ecosport is more planted, have better steering response, City is great on straight-line pedal-to-the-metal run. Hard to choose one of these, unless you are the "floor the pedal and go insane" kind of driver (that engine really pulls relentlessly only post 4000RPM - all the way to 6000+. No competition there, except maybe the VW TSI). Hard to prove though, but Ecosport seems better built and hence, safer car on highways.

Point is - the choice between a C2 sedan and CSUVs these day is a very difficult one. There isn't really a straight-forward USP to C2 sedans over CSUVs. no, No doubt CSUVs these days are taken as more practical choice by new car buyers.

Between compact sedans and C2 sedans though - I would never buy any C-sedan over a full sedan like city/verna/vento (except Tigor JTP).
Precisely my point. There's nothing going on with the ivtec until 4000rpm which is what I meant by lazy to build revs. I had to really work the gearbox to keep it on the boil. It could be fun with a good steering and suspension setup but it doesn't .
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Old 4th April 2019, 20:23   #52
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

Sad to see very few mention the Linea. The Linea is still in production and there are a few 2019 made ones getting sold, infact more TJET Lineas and Abarth Puntos than the diesel ones to the last few Fiat enthusiasts. I am one myself and I graduated to the Linea from a Brio. The Brio was a hoot to drive and the 90BHP ivtec was good in city and given the car size Brio was great in bumper to bumper traffic. But at some point I had to upgrade to a sedan due to boot space issues and also comfort factor with the Brio's suspension nothing but a rudimentary one. The Linea is with me for more than 4 years now and I plan to complete 10 years with the Linea. I have driven all C2 sedans and nothing gives a smile like the Linea does. The steering feedback, ride and handling are all spot on. With a ground clearance of 190mm you don't have to be too bothered about small to mid sized potholes on highways. Sad to see the Linea find no takers today since the aam junta is bothered about gadgets and gizmos and willing to gloss over safety of a car.
When I bought the Linea, I guess it was the only C2 Sedan with auto sensing wipers, cruise control, rear discs, sun glass holder, rear curtains and the only sedan with boot capacity of 500 litre or above. These were features only cars from a segment above had around 2014. I wanted a drivers car in the C2 sedan segment and Linea was the only one. It still brings a smile everytime the turbo kicks in. If I get bored in a few years, I would do a remap and a bump in power of 140+ bhp will still keep me satisfied for a few more years. I am satisfied with the MOPAR service and they have been doing decently in major cities.

Last edited by whencut86 : 4th April 2019 at 20:27. Reason: spelling mistake
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Old 4th April 2019, 20:29   #53
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

In this segment all manufacturers de-grew (Y-O-Y). No new manufacturers dare enter this segment seeing this trend.

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Old 4th April 2019, 20:32   #54
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by whencut86 View Post
The Brio was a hoot to drive and the 90BHP ivtec was good in city and given the car size Brio was great in bumper to bumper traffic. But at some point I had to upgrade to a sedan due to boot space issues and also comfort factor with the Brio's suspension nothing but a rudimentary one.
I share the feeling on the Brio. Similar reasons I moved to Nexon. Just donít feel like selling the Brio, itís amazing in city...may be better than City as well
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Old 4th April 2019, 20:40   #55
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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I share the feeling on the Brio. Similar reasons I moved to Nexon. Just donít feel like selling the Brio, itís amazing in city...may be better than City as well
I ride to work nowadays and so Linea is only for weekend outings and highway drives. So just one car is sufficient for me. Infact, I pay less for my Linea's annual service than I did for Brio.
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Old 4th April 2019, 20:58   #56
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

If we all bought cars purely for utility alone, I think a diesel minivan will top the sales chart. Many buy maximum real estate/features they can fit into their budget that has the best fuel efficiency. The car ownership is changing with more and more women owning and driving vehicles (my wife included), they prefer crossover UVs with light controls and loads of features.(my wife not included!)

Here is some story which made up my mind on the Sedan Vs UV (sport makes them less of utility)

Back in the day, I was happy that our family had a rather large car in the form of a '95 Esteem unlike the rather pedestrian M800 which most others had. The esteem could gobble up several gunny bags full of coconuts (Kerala) and a few bunch of Banana`s too which smaller vehicles wont without taking space away from passengers. Of course, it was a hoot to drive.

One day dad`s friend brought home our brand new washing machine, It was an IFB front loader, quite a massive box and it came snug fit in an M800 with rear seats folded. So from that day in my mind a hatch \ UV is far more versatile.

UVs are useful - I was able to contribute in someway by carrying a whole load of stuff in my UVs for Kerala flood relief. We have carried plenty of stuff upto its roof after a wedding many weddings in our family , sometimes bicycles too inside . Nano as well can fit a medium size bike inside.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aadya View Post
IMHO C2 Sedans are the quintessential family vehicles. C1 sedans are for price sensitive family persons. SUVs(Real as well as Pseudo) are inherently unsafe at highway speeds which we do not consider while buying a car. There are only few reasons to consider an SUV body style - 1.Potholes 2.Elderly passengers - Egress is painful in a low slung sedan 3. High bonnet provides protection in case of slide under accident conditions. 4.Waterlogging in rainy season(again 3-4 cms do not make huge difference)

Otherwise most people using SUVs in reasonable driving condition in cities are wasting a lots of money on these vehicles they would do well with sedans.
The new breed of crossover UVs have excellent highway manners and safe too. BOF UVs too have their place, for the ones who know how to handle them well nothing else will do.

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Originally Posted by Parth46 View Post
Market craze notwithstanding. the overall "feel" of the vehicle cannot be discounted.

Even though C2 sedans offer pretty much almost everything a D1 sedan does, equipment/features wise, but there is something about the overall package that cannot be matched. Comparing a Rapid/Octavia combo, the City/Civic combo, and many others, it's just that the overall feel of a D1 sedan is something else.

Similarly, although C1 sedans offer equipment almost at par with C2 sedans, the overall package of a City is unmatched compared to an Amaze. Similarly for a Ameo/Vento combo from VW.
Buyers of larger sedans are looking for comfort , refinement and power - so yes the feel matters here, not so much in the lower segments where it is more about fuel efficiency and features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pavi View Post
. A Ciaz suspension is definitely sad, but a Honda City suspension is truly at a different league in comparison. After using the 4th generation Honda City for last 78,000 kms I can guarantee you that the suspension is not tuned Ďfamily orientedí.
The Ciaz has a comfort oriented suspension , its a bit boat like on stock tires, with the right set of tires (Conti) it is holds the road steady.

City has a sharper front end compared to Ciaz however the suspension is very comfortable, so are the rear seats - the stock tires do not stay comfortable for long, it deserves a nice set of Michelins.


Quote:
Originally Posted by harry10 View Post
City with CVT is a no brainer. However, its 3+ lac costlier than Amaze diesel CVT for a similar feature model, in the end it's not an easy decision to make.
If your usage is high then you should know that petrol city + CVT is going to be costly, somehow it is not fuel efficient at all. The one (less than a year old) in our friend circle is always below 10 in city.

Hope that helps, I have not driven the latest amaze yet. But certainly most sedan like among the sub 4M ones.
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Old 4th April 2019, 21:02   #57
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Default The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by vsrivatsa View Post
After having been a passive reader of this thread for a while I thought I will chime in with my thoughts as well.





Coming to the topic of C-SUV vs C2 Sedan. I for one would not be comfortable trading a C2 Sedan with a sub 4m C-SUV. The space offered by Ciaz and City cannot be matched by a Ecosport or a Nexon - there is still a good difference for the rear seat passengers as well as the boot. Flipping down seats and saying there is more space is not a convincing logic for me. Its overall space: people + luggage together equation for me.



Coming to the topic of a full sized C2 SUV and C2 Sedan then I am thinking the only vehicle that sits in this category and price range is the Creta and possibly the Harrier. Again the Harrier does not come with a Petrol engine which is deterrent for many. The Jeep Compass and the likes are priced way higher.



In my opinion, the market needs some additional choices here in terms of a proper SUV from Honda and lets hope something from Kia as well which can take the Creta Head-on(lets not include BR-V here). Waiting for that day...

Completely True! If one has already experienced a C2 sedan like the City, Verna and the Vento, it would feel like a step back to move to the compact SUVs. I experienced this when I sold my Rapid, about a year back. I test drove almost all cars in the 10-15 lakh segment including the City, Verna, Ecosport, Nexon and more. But the compact SUVs just do not cut it in terms of space. And overall most of these cars have a Truncated rear, meaning they just do not look cohesive. I finally settled for the Creta 1.6 diesel and from a space perspective the Creta offers more than most C2 sedans. Even though it does not feel like a massive upgrade, Im quite happy with the car in general.

Coming back to the topic, yes, for sure the Sedan market share is going to come down even further and the failure of the Yaris is bound to make other auto makers think. I do not think anyone apart from the trio of City, Ciaz and Verna will move on to the next generation. Possibly I see Kia getting in a Sedan based on the next gen Verna, may be 5 years down the line. But no one else is going to be lining up sedans in this space for sure.
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Old 5th April 2019, 03:17   #58
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

The sedans are not going to disappear, they have a lof of value. The changing market trend is because:
1. Tax laws favoring <4m sedans. These cars offer more bang for the buck
2. SUVs being popular due to great design and also sketchy road quality.

The C2 segment sedans are here to stay and I'd recommend them over some SUVs in most cases. I'd recommend an SUV/crossover if you regularly tackle bad roads. The only really good crossover is the S-Cross and Maruti has messed up by not offering the 1.6 diesel or a powerful NA petrol.

1. The City and Ciaz and more spacious than a Creta
2. The petrol sedans are faster than petrol SUVs
3. SUVs have more bodyroll compared to sedans. (Although this is not a deal breaker)

That said, the D segment is a completely different story. It is been forgotten by the people as we've seen a flurry of good SUVs and MUVs.

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 5th April 2019 at 03:20.
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Old 5th April 2019, 10:39   #59
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by motorworks View Post
But no one else is going to be lining up sedans in this space for sure.
+1. Even MG seems to be cashing in on the SUV craze with 5 planned launches in 24 months as per this report -

https://www.zigwheels.com/news-featu...-months/33455/
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Old 5th April 2019, 12:01   #60
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

Premium hatchbacks are getting bigger and equipment levels are similar to C2 sedans in most premium hatchbacks.

The jacked up versions like i20 active/WRV are also finding buyers inspite of them falling in price bracket of C2 sedans.
With increasing traffic and tight parking spaces, buying a premium hatch/Compact SUV makes more sense, unless you are have a driver.

Add to that good options that we now have with compact SUV's.Something like XUV300 has that premium feel which sedans offer.
Sedans are also limited to boot space, so not very practical compared to hatchbacks/SUV/MUV.

The one sedan which will hold on to its position could be City. Its the most perfect sedan to have in that category.
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