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Old 3rd October 2019, 08:18   #106
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

There are no meaningful upgrades for the existing C2 sedan owners. The C1 segment is too expensive (Civic, Octavia, Corolla are around 22-24 lakhs on-road) and the existing C2 sedans are not much of an upgrade on Space or Engine capacity. I have a SX4 Diesel and the Ciaz had the same engine till the new 1.5 DDis was launched.
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Old 4th October 2019, 09:36   #107
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

I feel sedans will survive this onslaught. This csuv craze will die down and many will upgrade to bigger SUVs but sedans will catch up. Sedans may fight back in EV Avatar where aerodynamics play a much larger role.

The problem with the C segment is pricing has gone into a segment higher. So it feels unreasonable since beyond a certain cost we look at the EMI and not total cost. Suddenly then higher segments seem just a bit more in EMI. To be effective the pricing needs to come back to realistic levels.
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Old 4th October 2019, 10:48   #108
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by chittybang View Post
I feel sedans will survive this onslaught. This csuv craze will die down and many will upgrade to bigger SUVs but sedans will catch up. Sedans may fight back in EV Avatar where aerodynamics play a much larger role.
Actually CSUV is not a craze. Its a necessity courtesy of the quality (lack thereof) of our road infrastructure & our rainy seasons. As much as I love a good handling and corner carving sedan - In real life, I can do that once a month (assuming roads are in good shape) while I need to drive safely & practically to the office every day. So a subcompact/compact SUV makes better sense.

Even today - my CSUV is parked between 2 sedans with broken front bumpers and fog lamps. Why? Because their fronts grounded thanks to the crater size pot-holes on URBAN roads. Unlucky guys are driving around by tying up the broken bits rather than getting the bumpers replaced. Why? Because they know the new one will bite the dust soon too!

Thats the case for most people. The steep pricing of the C sedans isn't helping there cause either. Nor are they really powerful and fun to drive anymore, which they should be. Except perhaps the Vento TDI DSG. Others have similar or more powerful SUVs in comparable price brackets.

Last edited by Reinhard : 4th October 2019 at 10:49.
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Old 4th October 2019, 14:43   #109
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
Actually CSUV is not a craze. Its a necessity courtesy of the quality (lack thereof) of our road infrastructure & our rainy seasons. As much as I love a good handling and corner carving sedan - In real life, I can do that once a month (assuming roads are in good shape) while I need to drive safely & practically to the office every day. So a subcompact/compact SUV makes better sense.
That's precisely the reason I upgraded from Brio to Nexon. I was looking at City for a while but then gave up owing to our city roads and not so great and consistent highways.

Though I rarely scrapped Brio, I always have to be extra cautious on speed breakers and there is always a harsh ride whenever I hit a pot hole or unmarked speed breaker.
Post shifting to Nexon, my ride has actually become more comfortable and quicker as i do not slow down to a crawl every time for a speed breaker or bad roads
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Old 8th October 2019, 17:10   #110
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

The C2 sedan shows a 53% negative growth.

There is a shift of leadership in this segment with Ciaz being the segment best seller for July’19; Verna was for Aug’19 and City for Sep’19!

Also the gap between the Top 3 is minimal. In Sep’19; City outsold Verna by just 81 units and Verna outsold Ciaz by just 23 units!

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Old 8th October 2019, 19:01   #111
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
Actually CSUV is not a craze. Its a necessity courtesy of the quality (lack thereof) of our road infrastructure & our rainy seasons. As much as I love a good handling and corner carving sedan - In real life, I can do that once a month (assuming roads are in good shape) while I need to drive safely & practically to the office every day. So a subcompact/compact SUV makes better sense.
Western countries might have got the SUV craze. But in India, most people opt for CSUVs because of the infrastructure.

My parents have a 9 year old Polo which has clocked only 49,000 kms. It has zero issues but my dad hates driving it with the current roads in my place. He is looking to replace it with a Venue because of the road conditions, visibility and prefer driving an automatic in the current traffic conditions. He doesnt have any interest in cars and he doesnt care about handling or driving dynamics. So it doesnt make any sense for him to opt for a hatchback or sedan one more time.
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Old 9th October 2019, 12:10   #112
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

Well I really wanted to get the Verna. I simply love the current design and the overall feel and the boot space.
However the low stance and ground clearance was the biggest factor in rejecting it. I nearly had the mind to get the SX variant of the Verna. It looks so good! But instead got the Venue.
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Old 9th October 2019, 12:34   #113
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

I am not sure what significant advantages the CSUVs offer over the C2 sedans frankly. People are talking about infrastructure and potholes, but it’s not like you can drive a Venue or Nexon at 60 kph over a set of deep potholes/ ruts/ badly broken patches. You still necessarily have to slow down. at least for occupant comfort. It’s just that you have to “ navigate” your way out of such roads with more care in a sedan.None of the CSUVs have been specifically designed from chassis or suspension standpoint to be rough / tough and durable under any conditions. They all have to be driven cautiously lest you want to incur long term repair costs. Which is the same for other type of hatches/sedans. And in any case, tyres are the weakest link in this story. On the other hand, the amount of dynamic control during long distance/ high speed driving that you get in a well designed hatch/ sedan is unmatched by any SUV.
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Old 9th October 2019, 12:59   #114
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
I am not sure what significant advantages the CSUVs offer over the C2 sedans frankly. People are talking about infrastructure and potholes, but itís not like you can drive a Venue or Nexon at 60 kph over a set of deep potholes/ ruts/ badly broken patches. You still necessarily have to slow down. at least for occupant comfort. Itís just that you have to ď navigateĒ your way out of such roads with more care in a sedan.None of the CSUVs have been specifically designed from chassis or suspension standpoint to be rough / tough and durable under any conditions. They all have to be driven cautiously lest you want to incur long term repair costs. Which is the same for other type of hatches/sedans. And in any case, tyres are the weakest link in this story. On the other hand, the amount of dynamic control during long distance/ high speed driving that you get in a well designed hatch/ sedan is unmatched by any SUV.
I have an alternate opinion. When i drove the Brio to office (19KM one way), time taken was 1:05 hrs while going and 1:25 hrs while coming back. This is average time over few months.
Same distance in Nexon is 55 Mins and 1:10 Hrs.

See it is not that one can go at 60KMPH, but surely instead of coming down to 5-10 KMPH and being very careful over the speed breaker and often taking the breaker cross driving, we can do the same on CSUV at 15-20 KMPH without worry and easily pick it up from 2nd or 3rd gear. The same on sedan and hatch we have to downshift a lot.
There are at least 4 spots at traffic lights on my route where I have to slow down on hatch and more often than not get stuck at red light. Now I can go at higher speed say 25-30KMPH and clear the signal. These things come handy.
Also on highways having GC on your side is a big relief. Recently I had gone driven to a waterfall near Bangalore and believe me hatch or a sedan would have added at least 20 mins one way to the journey.
Good roads, like bangalore-channai highway sedans rule for most of the roads we travel the additional GC is peace of mind.
Another important point, a Crossover within the same price range is better utilization of space. For eg. Creta, Sletos etc will have better seating comfort than sedans of the same size. Same goes for CSUV. Though I agree the pricing has gone out of hand lately in this space.
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Old 9th October 2019, 13:29   #115
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
IPeople are talking about infrastructure and potholes, but itís not like you can drive a Venue or Nexon at 60 kph over a set of deep potholes/ ruts/ badly broken patches. You still necessarily have to slow down. at least for occupant comfort.
Errrrrr... actually you can, to an extent. I have done these types of no-roads or trails multiple times, earlier with my Ecosport and now with my Nexon and these cars can really handle a bit of boulders, slush and ruts way better than what the average person imagines.

Only last weekend, I drove my Nexon up a trail in 'Tirthan Valley', 6 kms beyond the village of 'Bathad' nearly up to the last village on that trail named 'Galincha'. It was all boulders and a bit slippery because of constant drizzling, and despite a few scary moments when the wheels slipped crazily, I did manage to reach the last village. The very next day, a novice 4wd driver with a Thar failed to reach the village and his vehicle was in 4H (he didn't know about 4L)!

LOCATION

This is NOT to compare a Nexon with a Thar - there is absolutely no comparison. In the correct hands, a Thar will eat a Nexon for breakfast, lunch or dinner.

But this is to show what a high ground clearance mini/pseudo SUV with low overhangs and a good ramp break-over angle, can achieve in the right hands. A sedan usually fails to reach even the 'Forawhile Cottages' marked on that map, unless in totally dry season and that too with numerous underbody hits.
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Old 9th October 2019, 14:19   #116
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

No question that a vehicle with a higher seating position, better ground clearance, bigger tyres and a better suspension set up is any day better than a sedan. Even more so inside our cities on our pathetic roads.

I love sedans too!. But when I sat for the first time in a taller vehicle (2007 Innova) after having driven the Verna for about 5 years, I felt I was a king of the road !.

I could not believe that I could easily see so much ahead of me right over the roofs of most vehicles and anticipate/plan easily. Now after having driven a few more SUVs and experienced the other good things, I will any day go for a SUV/CSUV/crossover when pitched against a sedan.
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Old 9th October 2019, 14:37   #117
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
None of the CSUVs have been specifically designed from chassis or suspension standpoint to be rough / tough and durable under any conditions.
Objection m'lord! "None" is a strong word and wrongly excludes the TUV 300 from the rough/tough definition.

There are those of us TUV 300 CSUV folks who crash through bad roads at high speeds with abandon. Only loose bolts are the result of this rough treatment; the loose bolts are re-torqued by the service center during every annual scheduled service.
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Old 9th October 2019, 14:57   #118
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by aniyo View Post
Recently I had gone driven to a waterfall near Bangalore and believe me hatch or a sedan would have added at least 20 mins one way to the journey.
Good roads, like bangalore-channai highway sedans rule for most of the roads we travel the additional GC is peace of mind.
Another important point, a Crossover within the same price range is better utilization of space. For eg. Creta, Sletos etc will have better seating comfort than sedans of the same size. Same goes for CSUV. Though I agree the pricing has gone out of hand lately in this space.
I'd like to add better visibility which makes driving so much better.

We've been very pro-sedans our whole life, but now that we have the S-Cross & Tiguan at home - I often prefer the CSUV route.
Our infra is the main reason we are moving towards CSUVs, and unless that improves - the market for CSUVs are only increasing and along with it - more fuel is being burnt and pollution created.
In Mumbai - unless you're going to Pune via the expressway - a CSUV is the way to go : from tyre & alloy breaking potholes on the right most lane of the local Highways, to wading through water after a heavy shower, to climbing ginormous speed breakers with 3+ passengers in the car!

Yet, there are a few sedans that can tackle the above - but sadly they're flop cars by market standards because they were designed keeping these conditions in mind over buyer preferences & today are most commonly used as Ubers - Etios, Logan, etc.

Personally - as a one car household, the CSUV makes a lot of sense. A sedan is slowly being relegated to being a second car.
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Old 9th October 2019, 16:04   #119
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
I am not sure what significant advantages the CSUVs offer over the C2 sedans frankly. On the other hand, the amount of dynamic control during long distance/ high speed driving that you get in a well designed hatch/ sedan is unmatched by any SUV.
Truly speaking, I love the silhouette of a full size sedan (though it cannot be said for the chopped sub-4 metre ones). Besides the low profile of a Sedan does not induce the same nervousness and body roll as that of a SUV/ MUV. A Ciaz or a City offers plenty of space, a comfortable cabin, loads for features and equipment, huge luggage space and above all a reliable set of machinery. I do not mind slowing down for those huge potholes of Mumbai, especially considering the comfort levels of the occupants, as against tossing them (just for the reason of owning a rugged vehicle).

At the end of the day it all boils down to individual preferences. It is my hard earned money and I will spend it on a machine, which in my opinion is optimal for my needs. I will certainly stick to the full size sends in near future.

Last edited by King_pin09 : 9th October 2019 at 16:07.
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Old 9th October 2019, 17:27   #120
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Default Re: The diminishing value of C2 sedans (City, Ciaz, Verna et al)

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Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
I am not sure what significant advantages the CSUVs offer over the C2 sedans frankly. People are talking about infrastructure and potholes, but itís not like you can drive a Venue or Nexon at 60 kph over a set of deep potholes/ ruts/ badly broken patches. You still necessarily have to slow down. at least for occupant comfort. Itís just that you have to ď navigateĒ your way out of such roads with more care in a sedan.None of the CSUVs have been specifically designed from chassis or suspension standpoint to be rough / tough and durable under any conditions. They all have to be driven cautiously lest you want to incur long term repair costs. Which is the same for other type of hatches/sedans. And in any case, tyres are the weakest link in this story. On the other hand, the amount of dynamic control during long distance/ high speed driving that you get in a well designed hatch/ sedan is unmatched by any SUV.
I would pick sedans over SUVs all my life. But that wouldnt be the case for a person who is old and doesnt have interest in car (say my parents). They prefer higher seating position with better all around visibility and GC. Just sharing my first hand experience.

I dont think anyone is going to drive SUV at 60kmph over a pothole. With better GC, one doesnt have to be extra careful about scrapping the underbelly while going over a pothole or huge speed breakers.
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