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Old 10th April 2019, 16:34   #91
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

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Originally Posted by fiat_tarun View Post

One thing that is 100% sure is that Ford is not exiting the market, so let's all take a step back, wait for an official statement and then analyse that.
There is unlikely to be any official statement regarding whether or not the future of the brand is bright, or whether there will be continued service support of spares etc. Even if there is, obviously neither Ford nor Mahindra are going to issue any statement which casts any kind of doubt in the minds of the public. The whole idea behind the idea was to allow Ford to continue operations, hence the only statement, if any, that may emerge will be one reassuring the car buying public of the continued viability of buying and owning a Ford vehicle in India. Any statement to the contrary would be akin to Ford shooting themselves in the foot.

Whether or not that reassurance is borne out in the real world is anyone's guess.

Last edited by arindambasu13 : 10th April 2019 at 16:42.
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Old 10th April 2019, 16:35   #92
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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
Let us analyze the succesful manufacturers:

1. Maruti: Started by GoI initiative and has tentacles deep into system, can make tin cans without a bother for safety regulations and can get away with it.

2. Tata/Mahindra: Indian companies again have deep influence in system and know how to manage the system being the oldest players.

3. Toyota: King of resale, value for money, indestructible .. appeals to thrifty Indian psyche naturally.

4. Hyundai: Like a cabaret dancer cavorting into hearts and pockets of spectators, hyundai has found out how to be a premium maruti and has assured customers of ownership satisfaction by giving same kit on local and international models.



So as you can see, GM/Ford do not fit in this jigsaw.

I do not understand how Tata and Mahindra have deep influence of the system. Both these Indian manufacturers were struggling until a few years back. They have successfully drawn a road map for market relevant products at market relevant prices and with quality levels that is fast becoming at par with some global automakers. So they have had to really work it out to get where they are. Of course, they still have a long way to go, but they have launched some remarkable products in the last year, like the Nexon, Harrier, Marazzo etc.

Just compare the quality levels you see in a Nexon to that of a Duster or even the Captur, and similarly of the quality that is available in a Marazzo to the Lodgy.

Their comeback is genuinely due to good products, not some due to any influence in policies or market conditions.
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Old 10th April 2019, 16:36   #93
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

Maybe going off topic, but what about Honda? Not many have mentioned them on this thread. They are the only foreign company who is going to survive alone. Toyota depending on Maruti, Ford on Mahindra, VW and Skoda join hands, so is Nissan-Renault, Fiat and GM exited already. I think it's hard even for Hyundai with just 15% market share.

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Also to be noted that Tata has lost the market share from 13% to 6% in 7 years! Yet they are aggressive in their approach, bringing in safety and new products.
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Old 10th April 2019, 16:48   #94
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

Quote:
Originally Posted by arindambasu13 View Post
There is unlikely to be any official statement regarding whether or not the future of the brand is bright, or whether there will be continued service support of spares etc. Even if there is, obviously neither Ford nor Mahindra are going to issue any statement which casts any kind of doubt in the minds of the public. The whole idea behind the idea was to allow Ford to continue operations, hence the only statement, if any, that may emerge will be one reassuring the car buying public of the continued viability of buying and owning a Ford vehicle in India.

Whether or not that reassurance is borne out in the real world is anyone's guess.

My point on the official statement was on the lines of what is the actual extent of this JV. The 49:51 holding pattern for instance is not confirmed at the moment and neither are details like cross badging, service network, etc. which are key points on how the public view this JV.
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Old 10th April 2019, 16:54   #95
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

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Originally Posted by motorworks View Post
I do not understand how Tata and Mahindra have deep influence of the system.
These manufacturers are part of larger parents who are the drivers and patrons of the 'Bombay Club' or vocal spokespersons of Indian industry. They have managed the system well, as they have avoided many a minefield which was laid with respect to diesel cars, emissions from diesels, safety norms getting postponed, managing to roll back additional taxation on diesels. also they have deep influence in Indian political system and know how to manage unions, politicians, hafta-vasooli groups and myriad other pressures that arise in India and yet maintain a semblance of normalcy due to their age and experience in Indian system. They have learnt to be buoyant even in most turbulent times and thus rake in moolah during the growth spurts as they are viewed by customers as stable entities who remain constant despite the flow and ebb in fortunes.
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Old 10th April 2019, 16:58   #96
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

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Originally Posted by turbospooler View Post
While people are worrying about the future of Ford's and M&M's cars, just think what must be going in the minds of Ford's employees.
M&M has their R&D center in Chennai. Ford also has a localized one in Chennai. There is duplication of resources, so few of them will be getting the axe.
M&M and Ford will both have Sales teams in multiple cities and, again, this is a duplication of resources.
M&M has their Strategic Sourcing Unit (the Purchase team) sitting in Mumbai and Ford has their's sitting in Chennai. As a shared service, this team will also be rationalized.
While your thoughts around the R&D center for Ford may be true to a large extent for the rest of it I am not very sure it will have any major impact. While Ford is folding up its independent identity in India M&M is not. So Mahindra Ford (if that's what they call the JV) will be an additional entity over an above the regular M&M and its ops. I think the sales force, sourcing teams etc. for Ford will then get absorbed to a large extent as a part of the new entity.

The way I look at it, this exercise by Ford is meant for them to avoid investing hard dollars in doing R&D for products that will work in this market due to the perceived low volumes. And yet they do not want to give up on the foothold that they have in this market. Entrusting the job to a JV helps them focus elsewhere. For instance pooling in the dollars saved globally into a single source R&D for the vehicles of the future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by turbospooler View Post
Coming to the Quality systems and Operating models of these manufacturers, there is going to be huge differences in Vendor Quality, Vendor development which will show in the cars in the near future.
Tata-Fiat JV is one big example. Tata trusts Fiat quality systems so much, they decided to manufacture the Nexon in Fiat premises.
Ah oh... Now this is taking things too far. I really am at a loss of words here. It is not Fiat premises in case you missed it. The Ranjangaon plant is a 50:50 JV between Fiat and Tata. Both partners have equal stakes and have the same interest of maximising the productivity of the plant. So if Fiat does not have enough production requirements at present to utilize the capacity it suits Tata to use that for extending their production lines.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Tata being in awe of Fiat quality or any such other thing. So the basic premise of the assumption that the quality will go downhill may be faulty.

Last edited by Zappo : 10th April 2019 at 17:06.
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Old 10th April 2019, 17:02   #97
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

If Mahindra is smart, they'll never use their badging on Ford's cars. Somehow the Mahindra tag doesn't suit well on small 5 seater private owned cars.
Only few (out of already very few) will aspire for a Mahindra Aspire.
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Old 10th April 2019, 17:36   #98
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Originally Posted by surjaonwheelz View Post
With the following engines and transmissions,
1. 1.2L 3-cylinder Ti-VCT (Dragon) petrol + 5-speed MT
2. 1.5L 3-cylinder Ti-VCT (Dragon) petrol + 5-speed MT/6-speed AT [TC]
3. 1.5L 4-cylinder TDCI Diesel + 5-speed MT
4. 1.0L 3-cylinder EcoBoost turbo petrol + 6-speed MT (Forget this!)

First things first, there's no confirmation on the oil burner 1.5 TDCI will be BS-VI compliant. Assuming it comes under the axe, Mahindra has to fill in its BS-VI ready 1.5L 3 pot mill here. (Marrazo/XUV-3OO diesel unit)
Considering the age of the TDCI engine this seems quite possible. In addition, the extra cost of developing one for BS-VI compliance!

The petrol mills are developed recently and should be BS-VI ready. If not then again, it is Ford's nearsightedness!

I don't think Ford is interested in spending on BSVI compliance. Idea was for Mahindra to supply BSVI engines to Ford as per news from 2018. This is what the article in original post says:
Quote:
Last year, both the companies announced a partnership which will focus on developing and shareing powertrains as well jointly develop connected car solutions. As part of the agreement, Mahindra will develop a new low-displacement petrol engine that will meet the upcoming Bharat Stage VI (BS VI) emission norms in India. It will provide Ford with this engine, to strengthen the latter's petrol portfolio in the current and future products. This new powertrain supply will begin in 2020.
I am disappointed with this development. Was seriously considering Ecosport to replace my Punto, but this news has put me off. :(
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Old 10th April 2019, 17:55   #99
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

The arranged marriage guy doesn't know what it feels like to be in love.

Fords and fiat ownership are that way.

Will keep driving the current Ford and maintain it with what it takes.
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Old 10th April 2019, 17:56   #100
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

Disappointing news to see the original mass production manufacturer and a cult brand leaving.

After the Escort, they made Ikon specifically for India, which was a huge hit and people started to trust them and had high hopes but I think their leaving was not much of surprise though at least their approach is nicer than G M.

As mentioned in various threads and posts, our market is a tough nut to crack. Maybe American and European brands are habituated for more profit margins and like various airlines they are exiting in this young growing market of more than a billion souls whose potential is still untapped.

Lets see what is in store in near future...
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Old 10th April 2019, 18:09   #101
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Default Re: Mahindra and Ford to explore strategic cooperation in India & other markets

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Originally Posted by AMG Power View Post
Ford make some of the best cars on the planet. There is nothing that Mahindra can teach Ford about cars other than how to make their cars worse, lower the already lowered driving pleasure and add more cost cutting. Net result - cheaper but worse cars.
I own a Scorpio and a Fiesta so please allow me to say that this is nonsense.

The Scorpio is a fun ride in its own way, and the fit and finish, while "industrial" is robust and built to last. The all new Fiesta is of course in a league of its own and gives much more expensive and higher segment cars a run for its money in features and power delivery, sad that it became defunct so soon. And who can say it looks cheap? Here's my last (and sadly stolen) Scorpio, looking brand new past 5 years and 58k km when it was stolen. Pics of the new (3 years 35k km) one won't get posted - "nazar / drishti" etc fears even though I'm not supposed to be superstitious.

Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra-buffalo.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by surjaonwheelz View Post
First things first, there's no confirmation on the oil burner 1.5 TDCI will be BS-VI compliant. Assuming it comes under the axe, Mahindra has to fill in its BS-VI ready 1.5L 3 pot mill here. (Marrazo/XUV-3OO diesel unit)
The same engine sells in the USA (Ford Transit Connect vans even this year's models, with an automatic transmission and running on Ecodiesel) and in Europe in the Fiesta, Ecosport etc. The 1.5 TDCI (DV5) diesel, fitted with a VGT, is Euro6 compatible and pumps out a healthy 125hp / 300 Nm.

Last edited by hserus : 10th April 2019 at 18:19.
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Old 10th April 2019, 18:15   #102
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

So I spoke to a senior guy at Ford Credit. I told him about the apprehension that the new buyers or the potential buyers will have hearing about the JV. He started off with the usual stuff that its is a speculation as of now but maintained that Ford makes a commitment to a car owner for 15 years and even if the JV happens it will be for betterment of after sales and reduction in spare part costs & that Ford is not looking to exit India. He also said vaguely that it can be a 50-50 JV also you never know.

Now I know all the above statements sounds like quite diplomatic but I hope they stay true to these words and stay put in India & make sure to maintain the same quality and service post the JV. Lets wait and keep our fingers crossed.
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Old 10th April 2019, 18:17   #103
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

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Originally Posted by ashlil View Post
It is equally controlled for all car makers. Fickle policies are also for all. Some auto makers do great, others don't. How is that the fault of the market? Ford/GM were failing in the US too in 2008. Should we blame the US market?



How come Ecosport was such a craze then? Was it also herd mentality? How about older Figo? How come people buy i20, when baleno and swift are available? There was an analysis in this forum, which showed Hyundai sells more cars per dealership than Maruti. Does not seem herd mentality to me.



Firstly, market with little regulation? I thought you said "highly controlled market". A highly controlled market with little regulation does not make any sense. Secondly, a very low cost market? How come Creta is such a success? Toyota Innova is not exactly cheap. Swift Dzire sells more than Alto in many months. Chevrolet Enjoy failed big time. Ditto Datsun GO. And which of the policy favours one player? Is there any ban on making decent sub 4m cars for international players?



Again same for every player.

The simple point is that, many of the companies are unable to provide decent products at an acceptable price point. They are duely weeded out in a competitive market place. The only solution is: make an offer that the customer cannot refuse!
Will make couple of important points to comment:

Fickle policies make it very difficult for new players who are not get used to "Indian System". It is a known fact that an unstable / fickle policy will make global players nervous. Not everyone thrives in the chaos that India presents in every what way. In this we are an exception to pretty much rest of the world.

From regulation I should correct myself to say safety regulations - which are non existent. Most global products are benchmarked to much higher standards so they lose out on price.

Finally I dont think anyone is blaming the country or people if we cant afford good cars. But we do end up losing because we dont get innovations, new platforms. We do not get investments. In almost every sector "we are a tough place to do business". Not that everyone who plays should win but at the same time the environment needs to be conducive - which it is not.

My 2 cents.

~sm
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Old 10th April 2019, 18:21   #104
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Default re: Ford to end independent operations in India; will hold 49% in JV with Mahindra

This is a very significant development for Mahindra. The most important part is to what extent will Mahindra be able to exercise control over Ford's Maraimalai Nagar plant.
It had been an open secret that Mahindra was looking to setup an assembly operation in the South of the country and had even bought a large tract of land near Cheyyur village south of Mahindra World City.
The existing Ford plant at Maraimalai Nagar is a pretty sophisticated one and can support the manufacture and assembly of multiple models and powertrain options. And it is just a 10minute auto ride from Mahindra's existing R&D setup at Mahindra World City.

50-50 or 50-49 JV's are no bad thing. If you look at China, it's a Chinese government mandate that all foreign car companies MUST collaborate with locals in order to make cars.
Even Mercedes and Aston Martin has cross shareholdings in each other, not to mention the Grandpa of all JV's(of course, now Grandpa is in jail, but that's another story for another day!): the Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance.
In fact even now Ford sources the diesels it fits in the EcoSport through a powertrain JV which it inked many moons back with an European OEM.

It's what Ford intends to do, say 3 years down the line that's worth pondering over. Products, I'm sure, will from now on, be jointly developed for the Indian and South East Asian markets at Mahindra facilities. While Ford will do its own thing for EU and USA.
The Ford Chennai R&D Centre need not be overtly worried as 90% of their work is for Ford US and EU market products. India plays a very small percentage, till now. And Mahindra Research Valley is up to its eyes in work with existing Mahindra automotive, farm equipment and two wheeler work.
Sales and service - perception-wise it may suffer a setback but I don't think Mahindra service is too much inferior to Ford in terms of facilities, fault diagnosis etc. In fact sharing Mahindra service centres may actually boost Ford service network access.

I don't think Ford owners need to panic much, as this business strategy is totally different, when compared to say GM, FIAT, Daewoo or PAL-PEUGEOT.

Recent crop of Mahindra products, such as the Marazzo and XUV 300 are nice vehicles. That this collaboration will make Mahindra even stronger in vehicle engineering can hopefully be assumed.

Let's wait and watch as to how this pans out. Maybe the next crop of "MORD"'s or "FOHINDRA"s will not be bad acts after all!
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Old 10th April 2019, 18:22   #105
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Originally Posted by 2himanshu View Post
Disappointing news to see the original mass production manufacturer and a cult brand leaving.

After the Escort, they made Ikon specifically for India, which was a huge hit and people started to trust them and had high hopes but I think their leaving was not much of surprise though at least their approach is nicer than G M.

As mentioned in various threads and posts, our market is a tough nut to crack. Maybe American and European brands are habituated for more profit margins and like various airlines they are exiting in this young growing market of more than a billion souls whose potential is still untapped.

Lets see what is in store in near future...
They are not leaving.. this is a way to maintain presence but with lesser cost and risk
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