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Old 30th May 2019, 12:31   #31
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

Quote:
Originally Posted by King_pin09 View Post

1.written instructions also form an integral part of road signage machinery.
2. Most of the road names, junction names etc are in written form
What is the definition of literacy here? Ability to read signs in languages they are presented in? Do you expect truck drivers hailing from the north ( of whom the majority are illiterate or with limited reading skills) to read signs in English and/or Kannada/Tamil/Telugu while they drive down south or vice versa?

I have driven through one-way streets in TN towns due to my inability to read Tamil (text only signs) only to back up and cause/experience inconvenience.

Literacy or lack of it is not the problem here, it is our ability to make signs universal and intuitive enough so that even 'illiterate' can understand and act on them.
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Old 30th May 2019, 12:32   #32
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

I think we dont have to mix up literates breaking the law and illiterates who cant read the signage. By penalizing heavily, you can always make people follow law. If one cannot understand something, there is no alternative.
But this should be done at national level. Driving skills are not related to literacy. But for society to follow rules and maintain order, literacy might seem mandatory. Its not that difficult to learn reading if one really wants to, right ? Of course its complicated in our country because English seems a must if you want to travel everywhere.

Last edited by srishiva : 30th May 2019 at 12:34.
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Old 30th May 2019, 12:42   #33
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

What a dumb move! And the reason cited for the judgement is Pedestrian safety. Illiteracy does not mean the person cannot distinguish between pedestrians and the road.

This skill of not able to distinguish between pedestrians and the road can be acquired by literates and illiterates alike after a couple of drinks.

What happened to India's judiciary?
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Old 30th May 2019, 12:45   #34
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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post

How does the court/RTO decide who is illiterate?
Somebody in the executive who brings in a condition not prescribed by the legislature IS illiterate.

Should apply to the other branch too, isn't it?
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Old 30th May 2019, 12:46   #35
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

If literacy will make our roads safer, then Kerala should have the safest roads & the best drivers in the country, no?

I wonder if "mi-lords" have ever driver a car/ridden a bike in God's own country.
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Old 30th May 2019, 13:03   #36
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

Methinks it's an absolute elitist thought-process to have a blanket ban on driving based on literacy levels.

The problem is how to ensure people do not claim ignorance of traffic rules/signs. There are several ways to fix it, without inconveniencing the users for whom the rules are made!
* make road-signs symbolic (heck, most already are), so text is redundant
* where-ever text is required, have it in local, Hindi & English languages
* Ensure user reads road-signs in the DL test (believe they're already there for training license)
* Do a big-data analysis on the symbols where more users fail - improvise those symbols for easy readability
* reduce driving license validity to 5/10 yrs, so we need a refresher course.

Lastly, if you want this in spirit, HAVE road signs at all places, today better managed-managed parts of the cities have these but large areas are without any signs (or with posters plastered on the signboards) leaving it to user judgement to take cognizance.

In countries where road signs are proper AND enforced, the drives are more pleasurable - often because all we're focused on is following the rules.
In India, we've road-signs (sometimes), cattle (often), jaywalkers (can't blame them, often there are no proper pedestrian crossings), multi-directional traffic in the same lane, potholes, hawkers, dug-up civil works, religious shrines and what not on our roads - it's a taxing place to drive.

If driver and road-safety is paramount, high time the judiciary focus on what's important (it shouldn't encroach on executive, but that's for another day); or stay quiet and let the government of the day decide the best way forward.

Off-Topic: The same illiterate folks queue up in lines (many literates don't - the voting percentages in urban areas are significantly lower than rural) and elect the government. In a democracy, everyone has a voice (& right to license).
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Old 30th May 2019, 13:07   #37
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

Quote:
Originally Posted by A M View Post
What a dumb move! And the reason cited for the judgement is Pedestrian safety. Illiteracy does not mean the person cannot distinguish between pedestrians and the road.
Do you know where pedestrians have right of way over vehicles, and where they are prohibited? Do pedestrians know? Isn't that something that should be common knowledge? How is that education to be provided to citizens? How is it to be confirmed that the citizens - especially those aspiring to a drivers license - know and understand these rules?

Simple - exams that would be applied based on a common minimum education, and an assumption that the road signs and notices would be read and understood. That's the basis of literacy being a prerequisite to a drivers license. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

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Originally Posted by satishv1987 View Post
If literacy will make our roads safer, then Kerala should have the safest roads & the best drivers in the country, no?
Here you go:

Quote:
However, compared to other states, Kerala is having the lowest number of road accident deaths in India.
How many guesses as to which states have the highest?

Source.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anurag.somani View Post
Methinks it's an absolute elitist thought-process to have a blanket ban on driving based on literacy levels.
It is elitist. Thankfully this ruling is not elitist, simply because it relates to a binary literate/illiterate, and not levels. Illiterate means unable to read/write in any language, so your suggestion below to have text in multiple languages is irrelevant to the illiterate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anurag.somani View Post
The problem is how to ensure people do not claim ignorance of traffic rules/signs. There are several ways to fix it, without inconveniencing the users for whom the rules are made!
* make road-signs symbolic (heck, most already are), so text is redundant
* where-ever text is required, have it in local, Hindi & English languages
* Ensure user reads road-signs in the DL test (believe they're already there for training license)
* Do a big-data analysis on the symbols where more users fail - improvise those symbols for easy readability
* reduce driving license validity to 5/10 yrs, so we need a refresher course.
None of your suggestions will work for someone who is illiterate, because they wouldn't be able to read the booklet on road signs and rules to understand them in the first place. They would require an audio-visual training session, which private driving schools could set up, or the government could - at a cost. Private schools wouldn't be attended by the target audience because they aren't illiterate by choice - so money is a problem. I personally would rather the government spend money on broad based education for citizens than on special classes for them to understand road signs. Most highway road signs are in English/Hindi or English/Hindi/Vernacular, which would mean that they would need to be trained in English/Hindi - eerily similar to an education, don't you think?

The government could also spend money on a lot of other things as you've suggested rather than addressing the basic issue of education. Fix the root cause why don't they? Once the education, driver testing, licensing is in order, then you can do big data analysis - otherwise you can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anurag.somani View Post
Lastly, if you want this in spirit, HAVE road signs at all places, today better managed-managed parts of the cities have these but large areas are without any signs (or with posters plastered on the signboards) leaving it to user judgement to take cognizance.
These points are irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anurag.somani View Post
In countries where road signs are proper AND enforced, the drives are more pleasurable - often because all we're focused on is following the rules.
Mainly because they know the rules - a very important distinction. Name a country where literacy - a basic ability to read/write a language - is not a prerequisite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anurag.somani View Post
In India, we've road-signs (sometimes), cattle (often), jaywalkers (can't blame them, often there are no proper pedestrian crossings), multi-directional traffic in the same lane, potholes, hawkers, dug-up civil works, religious shrines and what not on our roads - it's a taxing place to drive.
Irrelevant to the discussion again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anurag.somani View Post
If driver and road-safety is paramount, high time the judiciary focus on what's important (it shouldn't encroach on executive, but that's for another day); or stay quiet and let the government of the day decide the best way forward.
I'm sure you understand that the judiciary was actually doing their job here? Please read the petition and the judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anurag.somani View Post
Off-Topic: The same illiterate folks queue up in lines (many literates don't - the voting percentages in urban areas are significantly lower than rural) and elect the government. In a democracy, everyone has a voice (& right to license).
Irrelevant points to the discussion. Literacy and courtesy/socio-political activism do not necessarily go hand in hand, that's a given.

In the law, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Those against this judgement - is it your view that an illiterate driver should be permitted to claim ignorance as an excuse for breaking the law? If they run over a pedestrian at a zebra crossing, should they be allowed free? Or if they park a truck in the fast lane atop the elevated highway to the airport (in Bangalore) with one dim, partially obsucred taillight on at night, should they be excused if they cause a death because a car rams into their truck?

Last edited by VeluM : 30th May 2019 at 13:33.
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Old 30th May 2019, 14:03   #38
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

What about the menace pedestrians cause by jumping on an expressway to get to the other side -- even when there's an underpass or foot-over bridge? Just to save a minute! They waste more than that picking the right scapegoat.

Call me evil, but drivers should not be charged if a pedestrian runs into their vehicle. The pedestrians should be responsible enough (and if I may add -- literate enough) to read signs and know that they should not be jumping in front of moving traffic.
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Old 30th May 2019, 14:09   #39
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

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Quite a poorly thought out post. I'm sure you understand that even a truck driver would need to know where they are going, be able to read road signs and understand symbols. What is the guarantee that they do if there is no ability to read? There are two or three roads to choose from, easy enough to figure out that from the arrows, but which one should I choose for my destination? What about temporary diversions such as those in the outer ring road in Bangalore currently. People going into the city are too choose a different diversion from those by passing it, as specified in the sign board. Which would the illiterate choose?
So I guess a truck driver has to be able to read English if he wants to pilot a National permit truck. And any private vehicle owner who is proficient only in his local language and not in English or hindi, should not be drive his vehicle outside his state since he is a menace to others.

Last edited by SmartCat : 31st May 2019 at 00:57. Reason: fixed quote
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Old 30th May 2019, 14:10   #40
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

I think it's a good judgement. I guess a different way to think about it is that a literate or educated person has a greater chance to be more "CIVILIZED" i.e. more likely to follow rules and regulations and show some manners because most school systems not only teach you how to read and write (which everyone in this thread seems focused on) but also helps in your moral and mental development to some extent with the variety of subjects covered in school.
Obviously this is not exactly the actual case as quality of education varies and yes well educated people also are mannerless, etc, etc
Our country is large and greatly overpopulated with all sorts of people who are completely different. It always pains me to see almost ANY solution to improve our country which has even a small upside getting shot down because it will inconvenience XYZ person or community. Obviously keeping the usual issues of corruption, poor implementation etc aside
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Old 30th May 2019, 14:12   #41
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

I was always under the impression that one needs to have 10th pass certificate to get the drivers license. To get a Learner's license, one needs to pass the written test right?
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Old 30th May 2019, 14:18   #42
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

Quote:
Originally Posted by KL01toKA03 View Post
Most of our law enforcement is concerned with following the letter of the law than following the spirit of the law.

Yes, the cops should book everyone who drives as though they cannot understand the traffic signs instead of being concerned with their education. Emission testing should be random and strict instead of making everyone get an emission certificate every few months or banning cars over a certain number of years.
More to the point - is there any text in the current motor vehicle act or rules that specifies literacy as a criterion to grant or not grant a license?

Without it the judge has overstepped his mandate.
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Old 30th May 2019, 14:21   #43
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

I agree with the opinion that a basic literacy requirement for DL issuing can make our roads safer. How will an illiterate person even read the direction signs in those confusing junctions ?

Current judgement by Rajasthan HC is with respect to literacy and not about having educational qualifications or certificates. It is also not about reading English or going to a school . Literacy is defined in terms of basic literacy test administered in local language.

I think it is great , if a basic literacy test can be a mandatory requirement while issuing a DL. Rather than withdrawing the license , the HC can very well issue a window before which people who need to maintain DL needs to pass a literacy test.
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Old 30th May 2019, 14:23   #44
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

Though im educated, Im still an illiterate when i travel out of state in India. Applicable for most of us unless you are multilingual.
Hope you understand what i mean.
First that should be corrected before coming for a debate on this judgement.
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Old 30th May 2019, 14:26   #45
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re: On educational qualifications & the driving licence

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Originally Posted by SmartCat View Post
I was always under the impression that one needs to have 10th pass certificate to get the drivers license. To get a Learner's license, one needs to pass the written test right?
I agree about the written test( which nowadays is conducted online).

However, I believe the 10th grade pass certificate/marksheet is just one among the few accepted documents for proving that the candidate is above the minimum age limit.

When I was submitting the documents for my DL application, I was confused whether they needed the pass certificate or the score card. My instructor told me it is just to cross check the Name, DOB etc. and I could submit any one of them.
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