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Old 20th January 2021, 23:24   #1096
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

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Originally Posted by vigneshkumar31 View Post
On the topic of Road Presence.
I clicked this picture of my Storme parked next to a Harrier Camo.
It just can't IMO; and the coupe-ish roof of the Harrier doesn't help the matters either.

Guess its time now to put this part to rest; maybe its not entirely fair to the new one, to be pitched against the old, even though it is inevitable. I know I'd my reservations too (posted earlier on this thread), but the more I see this in the pics/videos etc.,the more I see myself warming up to this new one now; looking at it as a proper crossover. Dont get me wrong, I am not trading in my Storme for this anytime soon. But had I not been bitten by the Safari bug earlier, or if I was in the market for a 7 seater at this time, this would've made the cut for me.

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Originally Posted by Mustang Sammy View Post
This whole connected world that we are heading towards is a bit too creepy IMO. I have no desire for the car manufacturer to know where I am, and how I drive.
Agreed 100%; I'd much rather be 'connected' to the car, on a great piece of tarmac and be disconnected from rest of the world!

Last edited by avinash_m : 20th January 2021 at 23:30.
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Old 20th January 2021, 23:41   #1097
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

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Originally Posted by Sebring View Post
You're right. I was in a bad accident myself on the Abu Dhabi highway at over 140 KMS (Rolled over three-four times). A Roll over exerts unimaginable force, and is quite hard on every inch of the car. One shouldn't take it lightly. Here is the most famous Bond clip https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=Fikyvgc-fOM
My wife rolled over our old 1998 carbed Zen. Broke her clavicle. And the car shell stayed intact undented and all doors opened perfectly, with just the left side scratched and some metal bits holed through where the car slid before coming to a halt.

No glass buddy. Just old fashioned metal. Thank you.

Cheers, Doc

Last edited by ebonho : 20th January 2021 at 23:49.
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:20   #1098
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

Excessive height versus length and width was the biggest problem of the Safari and Storme. That funny narrow tall box design, with puny wheels always gave an impression of a supermarket trolley. No wonder the Storme/Safari has immense body roll, a propensity to roll over and require so many corrections to keep within a lane. The body on frame also meant that the floor was too high, leading to a not ideal center of gravity. The Harrier and the new Safari echo the modern interpretation of a SUV, one that is lower in height, yet has ample ground clearance, is wider and longer than it is tall and a car which can bring in the "sport" component of a SUV by means of more car like handling.
The "tall is the new long" is very 1990/early 2000 thinking. Now all SUV are made as short as possible to aid reduction of body roll and to increase handling. The sizes of SUV like Audi Q5/7, Bmw X3/5 or the Discovery Sport/Fpace all reflect this.

Last edited by apachelongbow : 21st January 2021 at 02:31.
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:40   #1099
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

The ORIGINAL Tata Safari has been one of the longest serving models in the Tata lineup if not the longest. Safari when launched in late nineties, was rather unique and undoubtedly premium. It managed to create it's own identity and people still love it two decades later. It has been their flagship model for nearly 2 decades. For such an icon, it would have been better for Tata to give a different/unique fascia for 2021 model rather than carrying on with Harrier's design. With multiple models sporting similar design elements, the uniqueness of the model gets diluted. With years and years of testing and market survey, it's beyond my understanding what is so difficult for a big company(not just Tata) to have different design elements for each of their models(atleast in the premium segment), with unlimited resources at their disposal.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:57   #1100
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

Since there has been a long discussion over the Safari. I also would like to drop a few cents from my end. Before I begin, let me assure you gentlemen that I have a decent experience of owning Safari, Innova, Crysta, Scorpio, and XUV, along with a good experience of driving the Hexa too. So, putting my observations based on what I have felt till date:

What differentiates a Safari: You can talk eye-to-eye to a Tata 407 driver!
See, once inside Safari, if you overtake the likes on an XUV or Innova, you will notice that they are seated at least 4-5 inches lower than you are. Scorpio guys may feel quite competitive though.
XXL size front door, XXL size seats (especially the rear seat base), a soft set suspension, the low window line, and low set dashboard - heck, when you are in a Safari, everything else seems to be 'lower'.

That's the feeling which a Safari delivers, and probably the reason many people say that once you get habitual of Safari, it becomes hard to like other options, particularly the XUV 5OO.

BUT
Those are the older days, now the Scorpio is going to offer a higher seating, and XUV is going to be a neck to neck competitor. Like or hate, you can't debate!

Who is Scorpio? The guy who stung Safari. Scorpio neither offered similar space, nor it offered a comparble comfort, and it never offered the interior quality of Safari. But, from my experience of being a contractor, I tell you guys, particularly the one, who, a few pages back, used some harsh words for people who compare Scorpio to Safari. See, Tata needs the Scorpio customers too, hence they are making a car, and they are interested in taking money even from those people, who don't even properly know the spelling of car.

Scorpio always offered a more rugged set of mechanicals, a proven higher reliability, and, a proven lower maintenance. Was always better than a Safari to drive under load in hilly terrain etc, and the Scorpio has always been a better on-road performer in terms of engine response in any gear. We drove a Scorpio S8 in the forest areas of Sitapur and around for around 15 months while working on electrical lines erection under PMJGY, poor to non existent roads, huge bumps and everything else you can think of. And at times, we used to rally there at 60-70-80 kph, 61k kms of abuse, not a single time an issue came up with the suspension; other than 2 bush replacements. Can't imagine doing that with a Safari. Before you tell me that Safari could do that, well, this Scorpio replaced a 2.2 Storme itself and I very well know what I am talking about. The lower weight of Scorpio always made sure that the maintenance of suspension etc remains lower than that of Safari - simple mechanical engineering that is!

Additionally, Scorpio offered an additional advantage of front facing third row, no matter if it had space or not, a front facing third row is any day and every day better than the jump seats.

Coming too close to Innova? See gentlemen, people don't buy Innova for features. They buy it as a basic point A to point B car, that will transport you daily in supreme comfort, and will keep on doing it for years. The reliable mechanicals do come at a cost, and that cost is always higher than that of electronics. If I have to put my 27 lac on a car, any day and every day it will be an Innova only. I have owned the Toyota van thrice (between 2006-2013, and 2015-2017, 2019-till date), you appreciate it after you own it, when you notice the smaller bits where the attention has been paid. Example: Instead of a panoramic sunroof, I would any day prefer adjustable under thigh support. A small but so much significant item, that if on a 4 hour or longer drive, you notice the difference immediately it brings in terms of comfort.
Knee airbag: No matter how safe your car is, driver's knees always face injury if the collision is above a threshold limit. I have been into a collision, my friends have been, you slide on your seat in a fraction of seconds and your knees break the dashboard plastics, even if you are buckled. Don't trust me? Check NCAP reports too, knee injury in something unavoidable in front collisions.

Small, but significant things do matter and adding them adds more cost overall to the vehicle, than adding a few more tangible ones.

The mechanicals:
Be it older Safari, Hexa, Scorpio, or Innova. All of them offer the super rugged double wishbone suspension up front, and live axle with multi link at the back. Only XUV 5OO as an exception with McPherson struts up front and independent suspension at the back. Harrier offers McPherson struts up front and twisted beam at the back (Tata can name it anything, basically it's the same thing).

See, whether Harrier has the suspension from Discovery Sport (BTW entire LR and RR range uses either air suspension, or double wishbones up front), or from a G63 AMG 6x6, no matter where it is from. Hexa used to ride better, even a Crysta rides better, especially when you hit a pothole and feel the movement at the front end of the car. With DWB up front, damage under excessive bumps is also lesser due to exceptional shock absorbing capacity and bulletproof ruggedness of the DWB.

So, ideally the new Safari is Safari only for the name. I understand the love a few owners have for this name, also I understand that this name commands respect too. But, the car in question is simply a Harrier + 2 seats, no matter what they call it.
  • And it is never going to give you the following feelings, which made the Safari - 'The Safari':
  • That soft set front, which used to cushion up even the craters and mountains
  • That feeling of 4-5 inch nose dive, that we used to enjoy while driving slow or fast on highways, just by touching the brakes
  • That seating position, in which you were never in the seat, you used to be on it
  • That all round visibility with everything set low. Which other SUV requires you to rest your elbow more comfortably on the window sill, rather than door armrest?
  • Those sideways movements while passing slow over irregular surface, that feeling of riding an elephant when the soft suspension used to get depressed and then slowly throw the cab in another direction
  • That feeling of flashing to another cars or even compact SUVs and you could see what all is inside. You could plan your overtake by looking at the road from over the roof of the cars and so called 'compact SUVs'

This new Safari is not going to offer all this, but the Scorpio is going to offer a few of these feelings, along with the creature comforts or electronics too.

The silver lining:
You get the same legendary nameplate, slight compromise on road presence, but still modern vehicle which will:
  • Offer better FE
  • Better dynamics and hence safety. It's better to not collide or roll over at all, than testing the safety features!
  • More creature comfort with a long list of features. Safari always lagged in this department
  • Lower maintenance of mechanical components
  • A better urban SUV

Last edited by BlackPearl : 21st January 2021 at 20:06. Reason: Edited. Thanks.
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:08   #1101
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

Not the older Safari had these increased chances of rollover, but the same was applicable for Scorpio as well. The higher the CG, the higher chances of rollover.

For older Safari's, the tail gate mounted wheels increased this problem. So, we could see the newer Safari Storme removed the mounted wheel and put it in the boot, so as to have a lower CG.

Thats why see newer SUVs are driving more like a car because the occupants sit lower. This helps in lowering the CG even more.

And as a bonus, it helps in diminishing the body roll of the occupants as well.

On a lighter note, if someone wants the towering feeling occasionally, you can try the double decker buses. They are making a comeback in few cities.

Last edited by turbo_delight : 21st January 2021 at 12:31.
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:22   #1102
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

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Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
BUT
Those are the older days, now the Scorpio is going to offer a higher seating, and XUV is going to be a neck to neck competitor. Like or hate, you can't debate!

This new Safari is not going to offer all this, but the Scorpio is going to offer a few of these feelings, along with the creature comforts or electronics too.
After seeing Sheel's black Scorpio I must say I was impressed.

So do I hear you saying that many Safari old timers MIGHT move to the new Scorpio next?

Why is Mahindra so kanjoos on patra and space though.

Live life king size man!

Cheers, Doc
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:47   #1103
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

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Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
I also would like to drop a few cents from my end.
Now that's a comparo! Very well put
But...
Quote:
Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
  • That feeling of 4-5 inch nose dive, that we used to enjoy while driving slow or fast on highways, just by touching the brakes
  • Those sideways movements while passing slow over irregular surface, that feeling of riding an elephant when the soft suspension used to get depressed and then slowly throw the cab in another direction
Nausea has never sounded more romantic! God bless Safari fans
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Old 21st January 2021, 14:25   #1104
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

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Originally Posted by turbo_delight View Post
Thats why see newer SUVs are driving more like a car because the occupants sit lower.
SUVs are not driven like cars, it's our infrastructure that doesn't let the cars being driven like cars actually.

Being seated higher up, you get a few advantages in an SUV:
  • A longer and better visibility of the road
  • You know what is happening on the other side of the median too, and you notice the happy ignorant gentleman before he crosses from the gap in median to your side, the short grass is still tall for hatchbacks and sedans after all
  • Lesser risk of damage in case you hit some pothole in the mid of expressway (I once had 2 of my tyres bulged because of this nasty surprise)

So, even if it's tall, you still manage to outpace most of the sedans and premium hatches even in the likes of a TUV300.

Quote:
you can try the double decker buses.
At times I think that how many times the drivers of these buses would get 'heart in the mouth' moments while on the road!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
After seeing Sheel's black Scorpio I must say I was impressed.
Drive one, you will be even more. The mechanicals, gear ratios, and the responsiveness of the mHawk is simply impressive. No wonder, I have written multiple times on the forum that Scorpio has impressed me the most on hilly drives. The engine makes the inclines feel like they are ascending at half the angle of what they actually are!

Quote:
So do I hear you saying that many Safari old timers MIGHT move to the new Scorpio next?
Yes, no other option is left now. If they want the following inside one box, then they have to:
  • Creature comforts and a lot of features
  • Decent seating and driving comfort
  • Powerful motor
  • Acceptable to good interior
  • Body on frame construction with rear wheel drive
  • Seating space for seven, and comfortable enough to carry seven people for a hundred kilometers or two
  • Higher seating with a huge glass area
  • And probably, a 4x4 too

If I have a budget of say 20-22 lac at max, what option do I have? I can't go to the crude Bolero, and can't go to a Fortuner either with that budget!

There is too big a void in our market, the CSUVs are simply not as capable, and there is nothing else to fill the void either. For the first time, I feel that the tag line of Scorpio - "Nothing Else Will Do", is perfectly apt for the situation.

Tata never needed to go so high in the premium quotient, they needed to give a Safari which stood for what The Safari is. What they have left behind is a huge void and free run for Scorpio, and themselves they have decided to enter the turf where they will face:
  • Price high - too close to Innova
  • Price low - people doubt Tata quality
  • XUV gets more features - Safari dies
  • Safari gets more features - Innova is too close

Just see, where they came from, what they have left behind, and where they have actually landed?


Quote:
Live life king size man!
Thing is, if I starting writing about this part, I will get banned for sure!

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Originally Posted by Iyencar View Post
Nausea has never sounded more romantic! God bless Safari fans
That's simply a 'responsible' young man, writing his heart out.

See, if one thinks that people buy Safari for what it offers. That's only half the story.

People bought the Scorpio and Safari against the likes of Creta etc, they paid higher sum for fuel, insurance, service and everything else. Still their full size SUV never had the third row occupied (Trust me, my Innova had never seen an occupied third row). Why they still wasted their money on a faster depreciating, less feature loaded, slower in speed, more fuel guzzling, and an SUV with a poorer fit and finish?

That's the intangible part of owning these SUVs. People spent money on these SUVs not for what they offered, but for how they, as the owners, felt while being the charioteer of these chariots.

I have myself been there, and I can't imagine myself driving the likes of a Creta or Seltos. Those cars need features, because neither they fill you with the pride of owning them, nor they are as much involving or entertaining to drive.

Just think of this, once we did a Delhi-Meerut drive in a Storme, and half of the time we were just diving the nose and making weird noises in the car. A touch screen, a sunroof etc all are gimmicks which look and feel good for just a week or two. Trust me, your friends will still be impressed by the Safari moments, and not the Creta or Seltos Tech. It is the real metal that men love! And if the metal does not respond to your demands, you need electronics to keep yourself entertained.

Driving a Safari, 50% of the time, it's your pride itself that keeps you entertained. Remaining 25% is done when you make someone sit in a Safari for the first time, and then they give you their feedback. Other 25% is taken care of by the company, and the view around, in which you feel like being the tallest guy. Even more? Safari or Scorpio have always been so handful to drive, that they keep you occupied any way!

But yes, for anyone who couldn't afford to buy the likes of a Fortuner or Endy, these two were Godsend vehicles, and I shall consider this as a violation of our fundamental right to "have fun on the roads" by Tata motors.

Last edited by VKumar : 21st January 2021 at 14:55.
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Old 21st January 2021, 14:45   #1105
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

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Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
SUVs are not driven like cars

I shall consider this as a violation of our fundamental right to "have fun on the roads" by Tata motors.
Totally. You are a man after my own heart.

And you are depressing me badly man, as if Tata Motors had not enough.

Cheers, Doc
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Old 21st January 2021, 14:47   #1106
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

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Originally Posted by turbo_delight View Post
Not the older Safari had these increased chances of rollover, but the same was applicable for Scorpio as well. The higher the CG, the higher chances of rollover.

For older Safari's, the tail gate mounted wheels increased this problem. So, we could see the newer Safari Storme removed the mounted wheel and put it in the boot, so as to have a lower CG.

Thats why see newer SUVs are driving more like a car because the occupants sit lower. This helps in lowering the CG even more.

And as a bonus, it helps in diminishing the body roll of the occupants as well.

On a lighter note, if someone wants the towering feeling occasionally, you can try the double decker buses. They are making a comeback in few cities.
Tailgate needs to be significantly strengthened to take a spare tyre of that size reliably and then you need to swap the side when you sell abroad, even after that over time it develops rattles and then there is the visibility problem and not to mention, try lifting a tyre of that size to the height needed to fit it back on your own, alone. Its not convenient at all.

CG of a tyre like that is nothing compared to 7 full size adults sitting that high on the seats of Scorpio or Safari. These vehicles additionally can take a certain dynamic load on the roof as well.

Additionally mounting a spare wheel underneath allows for a windup mechanism that is convenient and wont break your back. It was there on Qualis too.

Never SUVs are more like cars because - well they are cars. The goal is to entice you into buying something more expensive than a sedan. The mechanical bits underneath is the same as a car.

But the offroad focused vehicles like a Landrover defender which released recently is just as tall as a Scorpio with dynamic load capability on the roof for good measure - driver needs to be good to make sure you dont roll that thing over.

When you go off the road you realize the importance of a tall seating and low bonnet - this is a format that is fast disappearing. Bonnet is rising and seating is getting lowered, that is the trend now for various reasons.

It is not easy to drive vehicles that are tall and has a BOF construction, those who are moving from smaller hatch \ sedan \ crossovers do not have the patience to get through it and therefore newer SUVs are (like) cars.
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Old 21st January 2021, 15:59   #1107
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

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Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
So, even if it's tall, you still manage to outpace most of the sedans and premium hatches even in the likes of a TUV300.

I might digress here, but this isn't true by any measure. Be it in gear or flat out, TUV300 is one of the slowest cars out there I have seen.
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Old 21st January 2021, 16:26   #1108
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

The street seems to be cheering whatever Tata Motors is doing right. I donít know how much of this can be attributed to the hype of the Safari

https://m.economictimes.com/markets/...w/80368892.cms
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Old 21st January 2021, 17:43   #1109
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

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Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
There is too big a void in our market, the CSUVs are simply not as capable, and there is nothing else to fill the void either. For the first time, I feel that the tag line of Scorpio - "Nothing Else Will Do", is perfectly apt for the situation.
Loved your post. I bought my Scorpio SLE in 2010 only because the Safari EX was out of my budget then. However, I haven't regretted this purchase at all. Now, after almost 11 years, if I want a vehicle below 20L that retains my Scorpio's pros, adds a few of its own, while reducing its cons, what option do I have except the upcoming Scorpio? That's why I really envy the folks who bought the Hexa when it was available.

This is not to say that the new Safari won't be a hit, but I do think that TML has probably missed a trick by consciously getting out of this space - that of a abuse friendly, spacious, comfortable and (relatively) low maintenance BoF RWD 7 seater.

Last edited by comfortablynumb : 21st January 2021 at 17:50.
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Old 21st January 2021, 17:46   #1110
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Default Re: The Tata Gravitas (H7X) SUV. EDIT: Branded as the Safari!

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Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
Drive one, you will be even more. The mechanicals, gear ratios, and the responsiveness of the mHawk is simply impressive. No wonder, I have written multiple times on the forum that Scorpio has impressed me the most on hilly drives. The engine makes the inclines feel like they are ascending at half the angle of what they actually are!
Fearing Safari fans coming at me with Pitchforks, all I can say is this.

This new year eve our Mhawk was climbing up a Jeep trail in a coffee estate with AC on, All in good time.
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