[Annibaddh]

Well let me put it this way, controversy is good marketing. There’s absolutely no way Gravitas would have generated as much buzz as this car already has, by stirring up the Safari discussion. It would’ve been limited to a few select people specifically looking for a car of that class. Now the cat’s outta bag. And Tata are sure to get a lot more footfall in the stores. We’ll know soon enough.

[Napalm]

Originally Posted by RoadAtlas

I was pointing to the lack of innovation here. Please note that neither the platform nor the Engine was developed by Tata. This was their flagship product, could they not have put a bit more effort here?

The lack of innovation accusation on Tata motors is totally unjustified.

Specially after they introduced game changing products like Nexon-EV and the Altroz, which also have got the 2nd & 3rd highest amount of the votes for the car of the year here at TeamBHP. Not to forget they are nailing the design/looks of their every recent car in the past few years. They have spent their R&D efforts on these things.

This was more about prioritising and streamlining their R&D budget. Why should they spend their R&D efforts on building a new platform for SUVs, when they have such a good one available from JLR. And it was not like they just replaced aluminium with steel and they were done. It would have involved a lot of engineering effort to get the JLR platform to lower cost for the Harrier & Safari(can I call it that now?)

Originally Posted by RoadAtlas

The very process of siphoning technology from a superior acquired company and use it for a mass market product is heavily looked down upon in Auto Industry (like when Fiat used Ferrari engines in their cars).

oh boy!Haven’t you heard of the biggest auto group in the world call VW group?This is exactly what they have done all over the world.

This is like accusing VW and Skoda of lack of innovation because they use the same platform and the TSI engines which are there in Audi sedans & SUVs. Or asking why KIA used pretty much everything from Hyundai’s platforms. Ford too is planning to use VW’s MEB electric car platform globally in its cars. It happens all the time in the auto industry For saving R&D costs.

Originally Posted by RoadAtlas

The market leader is losing his position very very fast as they are very averse to innovation and improvement. It Tata clings to the same jargon, they will lose their business faster.

Wow! If you think Maruti is losing its position, you should just look at their sales numbers. They are pretty much killing it in sales with Consistently more than 50% market share. They are the king of hatchbacks which are the most among top 10 selling cars in India.

Even the mighty new gen i20 with its array of features, petrol & diesel Engines, gear-boxes has not made a dent in Baleno’s sales, which are still double that of I20.
The Brezza is still holding its own without a Diesel engine and selling as much as the venue or Sonet which have same advantages as the i20. And it practically sells a few thousands more of the Urban-Cruise with no visual distinction like the Venue-Sonet.

Of course they are missing a good competitor to creta/Seltos now, But they are working on it along with Toyota and they will come full guns blazing next year.
Do note that their cars Eeco & Ertiga+XL6 together bring in around the same or more volumes than Seltos+Creta combined. Do not underestimate Maruti Suzuki in India.

[for_cars1]

Its a welcome move to launch the Gravitas as Safari.

The Gravitas is derived from Land-Rover's platform, it has the DNA of an off-roader, so its under-pinnings are well sorted and is befitting to carry the Safari's name, given the Safari's legacy as a true-blue offroading lifestyle vehicle.

Luckily, Tata owns Land-rover, so they are in a position leverage the Landrover expertise and platform and infuse it into the Safari (in its new avatar).

However, until the time Tata releases the 4X4 version of the 'Gravitas', it will not be a true Safari. A Safari has to have 4WD capabilities to let their driver/owner make their own road

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by RoadAtlas

Hi Ashis and Himanshu, I may be partially wrong here, I accept and apologize in that case, not completely. The wheelbase IS similar. Excerpt from the Official review of Tiago:

Okay so let me get it straight - the platform in question scored high in NCAP crash safety, has different track, Tata Motors insists that it is a different platform but you are ready to deny all that and argue that its an old platform merely based on the fact that the wheelbase is the same.

Or let me put it differently, why would you care if it is an old platform given it scored high in crash safety than the newer cars from the world's best makers of small cars?

Originally Posted by RoadAtlas

I think we both can agree that engine is WAY old. It was introduced in 2013

No, Tata did not have a 1.2 Turbo in 2013. Have you checked the insides of the engine to come to a conclusion? Does the engine meets the latest emission norms? Check. Does the engine produce reasonable power and torque WRT to the competition? Check. So how is it old? Like what is your definition of old?

Originally Posted by RoadAtlas

I was pointing to the lack of innovation here. Please note that neither the platform nor the Engine was developed by Tata. This was their flagship product, could they not have put a bit more effort here?

Tata owns Land Rover Jaguar. The platform WAS developed by a subsidiary of Tata Motors. And why should the parent company design a whole new platform for a market the size of India when they already have a platform which works in much more mature automobile markets worldwide both in terms of capability and crash safety regulations?

Are you really complaining that you can buy a car, which shares its platform with car costing 70 odd lakhs, for 14 lakhs (base harrier)?

Originally Posted by RoadAtlas

The very process of siphoning technology from a superior acquired company and use it for a mass market product is heavily looked down upon in Auto Industry (like when Fiat used Ferrari engines in their cars). We ourselves dislike Force using 15 year old Mercedes engines, why should it be any different for Tata?

No its called technology sharing not siphoning. And no car company would survive if they did not do that. I wish all car makers selling their cars "siphoning" from their international counterparts so we did not have crap like Seltos or Creta failing the NCAP tests so horribly. What is your argument? The so called "siphoning" is not okay but having an unsafe platform is okay?

Which cars did Fiat put a Ferrari engine in the last 50 years? Which Ferrari engine it was? And how was it looked down upon?

What is the issue with the 2.0 litre diesel engine? Power, Torque, Refinement?

Originally Posted by RoadAtlas

I beg to differ. Excerpt from the official review of Nexon:

Again you keep on harping about platforms but Nexon is one of the safest car on sale in India doing much better than some of the so called new platforms. So how in the world that is holy does it matter? What makes it old?

Originally Posted by RoadAtlas

My dear Sir, I did not mention anything about safety. Out of the 6 cars they produced 5 use engines using the same 2 architectures, over and over again. The other one I have already discussed about up.

How many cars and variants of the 2.0 turbo petrol engine does VW use in how many cars from how many different brands they own and also their combined volumes? Look it up.

Originally Posted by RoadAtlas

Please understand, compared to the process of developing a new engine from ground us, the process of adding a turbocharger or a new cylinder to a turbo diesel engine is astoundingly simpler. I would call it a retrofit, not a proper development.

Let me call your bluff here. What is the process of developing an engine? The so called "proper development"? What is the process of adding turbo or an extra cylinder to an existing "old" engine so that it meets the current emission norms and also makes more power and torque, reliably? Please detail the process since you seem to know it all.

Also I would hazard a guess, you think there is absolutely no development or R&D needed to build an electric car - afterall it just batteries and electric motors? No?

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by ph03n!x

Look at the Thar's grill and tell me you mistook it for a FCA Jeep, I will excuse you

But point is, M&M jeeps have made their mark in THIS country/ market - where jeep = M&M jeep. Don't believe me? Pick up any hill station or difficult terrain in India and look around.

lol.

Any photo copier is generally referred to as XEROX machine in India. People are used to it but that doesn't make it right. Even if majority of the nation thinks that a Mahindra Jeep = Jeep that doesn't make it right.

Originally Posted by ph03n!x

Back to Gravitas - I am not saying that Tata is wrong to use the Safari brand, no. Not at all. But they ain't doing justice to the brand by calling a Harrier+ as Safari - is my opinion. Had they NOT launched the Harrier at all, and instead launched the Gravitas as Safari in the first place then this discussion would have been moot - I would have gladly added a 3rd Tata to my garage!

This is interesting right. What are people after? The name Harrier+, Safari or Gravitas or a 7 seater SUV? If I were in the market, then I'll be after the product and not the name but I don't know about the market.

Tata has a big perception battle to fight and ironically it starts with their very brand name, Tata.

[PrasannaDhana]

Originally Posted by armaan_singh

Well to give it some perspective, would you buy a car called "Maruti 800" costing say 15 Lacs.

A 3 lakh Maruti 800 buyer may not wanna buy a 5 times more expensive car.

But a 15-19 lakh Safari owner can definitely consider buying a 22-25 lakh Gravitas(Safari).

Affordability difference between your examples is substantial. Quite a few friends of mine who had safaris have bought the harrier. If Gravitas was on sale during the purchase, I am sure they would have picked it over the harrier.

[avdhesh15]

I for one am looking forward to this car, regardless of the name. Will be in the market for an upgrade from my City and require a (?)UV given my requirements.

Till now, Innova was the only option but this will make it interesting. Also, I'm one of the few probably who's looking forward to owning a Safari vs a Gravitas!

[vigneshkumar31]

The successful era of the 5 seater SUVs over the past couple of years has resurrected the glorious bygone era of the 7 seaters.
Automakers are throwing their entries into the ring with whatever they have in their kitty.

Creta (7seater)
Jeep Compass (7 seater)
Hector+
XUV5OO
Scorpio
Safari

2021 will be the year of the full size SUVs and boy am I excited. Finally we will have some entries into the Darien gap between old XUV and the old Isuzu
MuX.
The fact that the gap and the brackets itself have moved up is a different issue.

But I'm glad this segments heating up

[Avinash_R]

Originally Posted by armaan_singh

Well to give it some perspective, would you buy a car called "Maruti 800" costing say 15 Lacs.

You do know why it was called Maruti 800 though right?

[aansh singhania]

Recieved this image via whatsapp
It looks as the base or the mid variant

[CoffeeBeans]

Originally Posted by aansh singhania

Recieved this image via whatsapp
It looks as the base or the mid variant Attachment 2104997

From this angle doesn't look any different from the version they showed last year at expo.
I really hope they keep the 6 seat configuration at launch. That, a more responsive touchscreen and probably ventilated seats and I'd say Safari would be ready to take on the competition.

[db DrivE]

The vehicle looks good.
Not sure what the projected part over the tailgate is.
Could you please tell about it incase you know?
The colour looks beautiful, but the wheels do not really seem to be going well with the overall design.
Hope it is different for the mainstream production variants.

[John316_WRC]

Honestly can't understand the negativity towards Tata here.

• Just the simple fact that the Safari brand is coming back should make everyone happy, unanimously!
• The fact that it is based on the Harrier is again a very good thing because the harrier itself is a good SUV.
• Yes the front could have been slightly different, but let me remind the naysayers that at one point the Merc C class looked like a 75% shrunken S class. Same story with the old Jetta looking like 75% shrunken Passat. Nothing wrong with what Tata has done here by making the Safari a larger Harrier, so stop beating on Tata!
• Clever move by Tata because the Safari brand will market itself & will be a crowd puller.
• Only negative I feel will be the higher sticker price, which means it is not as affordable and accessible as the older one.

But hey, I'm just glad the Safari now lives

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana

A 3 lakh Maruti 800 buyer may not wanna buy a 5 times more expensive car.

But a 15-19 lakh Safari owner can definitely consider buying a 22-25 lakh Gravitas(Safari).

I for one highly doubt if Tata would be able to sell even 200 a month if they pegged it in the 22-25 lac range exshowroom! Tata somehow just does not command that level of brand value and quality perception in the market. It would be a complete blunder on Tata to aim for anything above the 20 lac segment.
Honestly if they want this car to do respectable numbers they need to peg it exactly at the same price at which MG has launched the Hector Plus 7 seater - 14-18 lacs. This would help Tata get 1500-2000 numbers every month. Anything beyond this the customers will just not accept.

[neil.jericho]

Throwing in my 2 cents here as someone who has been on the fence regarding upgrading from a hatch to a SUV

- The old Safari's television advertisements were probably the best or at least in the top 3, automobile adverts in our country. Even today, a lot of people remember those ads and these are not the forum enthusiasts that I am talking about.
- Though the Safari may not have sold very well, it is a recognized name to the Indian junta.
- At least 95% of Indian SUV buyers dont know which SUV is body on frame and which is is not.
- At least 95% of Indian SUV buyers dont need 4x4.
- If Tata Motors utilizes the architecture and underpinnings from their own product, they are being criticized. The point of buying a company with non overlapping specialization, is to get immediate access to that expertise.
- If Tata Motors would have instead spent hundreds of crores in reinventing the wheel and developing a brand new platform from the ground up, they would have been criticized for not dipping into the existing platforms that they owned through acquisition.

There is an old saying, a rose by any other name is still a rose. The market will judge the product on the basis of its capabilities and pricing, not the name.