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Old 21st January 2020, 12:32   #61
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post

My guess is Ford probably went for the simpler NOx trap for the smaller 1.5L engine similar to what Kia did with Seltos and not for the full blown SCR with Adblue.

This is same as what Tata is doing with Altroz as well as Nexon.
Source: https://www.economist.com/science-an...elgate-dilemma

"Essentially, there are two ways to deal with the nitrogen oxides generated by diesel cars: one is cheap and cheerful, but less effective; the other is much better, but more cumbersome and pricey. Volkswagen chose the former (“lean NOx trap”) for the turbo-diesel Golf and Jetta models that figure in the current scandal. A canister resembling a catalytic converter is squeezed under the vehicle's floorpan to trap the NOx. Fuel-rich exhaust gases are then squirted into the canister every few minutes. The chemical reaction that takes place in the presence of a catalyst reduces the NOx to plain nitrogen and carbon dioxide.

The downside is that the engine’s fuel economy suffers as a result, and more soot is produced in the process. To get the claimed fuel economy on the road, the VW engineers arranged to squirt less fuel into the exhaust trap than required for proper NOx conversion. Hence the need for the software cheat, which injected more fuel during the EPA test, and then reduced the amount as soon as the testing was completed.

A more effective technology for dealing with the NOx produced by diesel engines (“selective catalytic reduction”) is widely used in diesel-powered trucks and large passenger vehicles. It works by injecting a solution of highly pure urea and de-ionised water into the exhaust ahead of the catalytic converter. Here, it vaporises and decomposes to form ammonia and carbon dioxide. As the gases flow into the catalytic converter, the ammonia reduces the NOx to harmless nitrogen and water.

While selective catalytic reduction (SCR) can remove 90% or more of the NOx, it requires a bulky tank for the urea solution, a pump to do the squirting and extensive plumbing—features that are difficult to fit under the floorpan or inside the boot of a small passenger car. Adding to the hassle and cost, the urea tank has to be refilled every 10,000 miles or so. Also, the vehicles have to be programmed so as not to restart if the urea tank runs dry. For those who value the diesel's high mileage and long range, these are inconveniences they have to accept."

So, Ford achieved this using the NOx filter while others like Maruti, Toyota, Renault are talking about the costly SCR method. I thought Ford and Hyundai invented some path-breaking technology to price their BS6 cars much cheaper than the expectations.

My assumption is others also will follow them and use the NOx filter. Eagerly waiting for their response.

By the way, another "Dieselgate" in the making in India?

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 22nd January 2020 at 10:04. Reason: Typo. Marui -> Maruti
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Old 21st January 2020, 12:34   #62
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

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Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
After market DPF for replacement for low end BS6 cars in Europe costs less than Euro 4000, removing dealer margin, and logistic cost for individual piece against container load supply etc its basic cost should be about half that ie Rs 14000.
Rahul
4000 or 400 EUR?. 4000EUR =3.16 lakhs INR
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Old 21st January 2020, 13:17   #63
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

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Originally Posted by wheelguy View Post
Kudos to Ford. As mentioned earlier Ford has used this opportunity to rationalise prices. Now among CUVs Venue and XUV300 seem to be in trouble.

Ex Showromm price for diesel

Brezza ZDi + - 9.87
Nexon XZ+ - 10.49
Venue SX (O) - 10.89
Ecosport S - 11.58 - BS6
XUV 300 W8 (O) - 12.14

(Haven't included AT & dual tone variants)

Brezza, if it gets a BS6 1.5 DDiS, has enough room for a competitive pricing. Nexon @ a speculated 1 lac price hike will match Ecosport - with a new face and additional features.

Hyundai & Mahindra need to rethink. Venue will get the bigger 1.5 ltr BS6 engine that'll push the cost up. Only choice for Mahindra is to leave the price as it is after BS6 implementation.

I like how Ford have absorbed the hike for Titanium + diesel to ensure tax benefit for the variant. It stays at 9.99 level Sensible move

BTW Kia will be keenly following these pricing strategies
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Old 21st January 2020, 13:47   #64
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

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Originally Posted by Karthik Chandra View Post
Kudos to Ford. As mentioned earlier Ford has used this opportunity to rationalise prices. Now among CUVs Venue and XUV300 seem to be in trouble.

Ex Showromm price for diesel

Brezza ZDi + - 9.87
Nexon XZ+ - 10.49
Venue SX (O) - 10.89
Ecosport S - 11.58 - BS6
XUV 300 W8 (O) - 12.14

(Haven't included AT & dual tone variants)

Brezza, if it gets a BS6 1.5 DDiS, has enough room for a competitive pricing.
Brezza doesn't have much scope. Ecosport Titanium variant matches Brezza ZDI+ in specs and it costs only 9.99L even for BS6 diesel.
Ecosport-S is miles ahead of Brezza ZDI+ with 6 airbags, sunroof, ESC, TCS, HLA, TPMS, emergency-assist and now Ford-pass etc none of which is there in Brezza ZDI+

So future BS6 Brezza ZDI+ will be competing with Ecosport-T which costs only 9.99L. Brezza is going to be in trouble in this regard as even current BS4 Brezza ZDI+ costs same
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Old 21st January 2020, 14:20   #65
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
So, Ford achieved this using the NOx filter while others like Marui, Toyota, Renault are talking about the costly SCR method. I thought Ford and Hyundai invented some path-breaking technology to price their BS6 cars much cheaper than the expectations.

My assumption is others also will follow them and use the NOx filter. Eagerly waiting for their response.

By the way, another "Dieselgate" in the making in India?
Smaller engines with lesser exhaust gasses output can use the NOx trap and don't need SCR with DEF.

There's no such luck for the larger displacement engines and they need an SCR with DEF injection.

The other thing you need to remember is that from April these engines will run on ULSD (Ultra low sulphur diesel). That itself will help with emissions. Right now all BS6 diesel cars are running overtime to cut harmful gases by either injecting more urea for regen or burning more fuel for LNT and few cases clogging up.
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Old 21st January 2020, 14:32   #66
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

A Little above 1 Lakh one can get half an engine of Fiat Punto!

https://www.99rpm.com/fiat/bare-engi...nde-punto.html

I was always skeptical of manufacturers claiming the cost in lakhs to make a BS4 engine compliant to BS6. IMO it's trick to jack up prices.
Kudos to Ford for giving us BS6 compliant engines in just 13k extra
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Old 21st January 2020, 15:05   #67
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

Year 7 and still staying relevant. Cheers to Ford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Smaller engines with lesser exhaust gasses output can use the NOx trap and don't need SCR with DEF.
The other point to note here is that the 1.5 tdci from ford is very conservatively tuned with a small turbo; midrange being the strong point. You don't see a stock motor throwing black smoke like a hyundai 1.6 or Renault k9k.

Also, the bs6 torque numbers match that of the 1.5 ecoblue which passes euro 6.2 norm.
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Old 21st January 2020, 16:37   #68
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Smaller engines with lesser exhaust gasses output can use the NOx trap and don't need SCR with DEF.

There's no such luck for the larger displacement engines and they need an SCR with DEF injection.

The other thing you need to remember is that from April these engines will run on ULSD (Ultra low sulphur diesel). That itself will help with emissions. Right now all BS6 diesel cars are running overtime to cut harmful gases by either injecting more urea for regen or burning more fuel for LNT and few cases clogging up.
Another example of the division line in terms of power can be taken from US non-road vehicles with Tier 4f emission norms-farm equipment under 75 hp did not need SCR and the norms were more stringent on PM rather than NOx. NOx reduction is demanded more in engines above 75 hp (PM reduction was the same) probably due to much higher volume of NOx generated in large diesel engines.

Regeneration of DPF is the primary concern in BS VI engines as it gets clogged up with soot fairly quickly (w.r.t. service schedule intervals). To effectively clean it, the engine either goes in to 'Regen' mode and runs at elevated speeds right from the start or the vehicle needs to be driven around at high speeds to burn soot in the DPF. Also, DPF cleaning fluid (which can be bought online costs around Rs 1000-2000/ltr depending on brand, 'Liquimoly' being a well known brand but priced steeply) needs to be sprayed before the 'Regen' process (not very convenient).

I wonder how Ford has packaged the LNT and DPF in the engine bay as a lot of manufacturers were worried about space underneath the bonnet. Also, more importantly how they have priced it at just 13k premium than the BS IV model. According to a lot of sources, the cost of a DPF alone was at least ~Rs 20-25k!
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Old 21st January 2020, 20:02   #69
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

I think the base variant is very desirable now as it has twin airbags, abs, 1 din music system, all power windows and perhaps parking sensors too.
Good that even with BS-VI norms prices are reasonable. However they could've reduced the number of variants to just 03 only.
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Old 21st January 2020, 20:35   #70
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

Ford has really shocked the market by maintaining the prices but they could have worked upon the common feedback of providing Android auto/car play. With the price shock, some features are removed from titanium such as puddle lamps, rear Armrest, sunglasses holder and front map lamps. Cruise control from Titanium+ manual variants. On the whole, it's a decent package and the package would be complete with Android auto/car play

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 22nd January 2020 at 10:02. Reason: Typo
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Old 21st January 2020, 20:53   #71
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

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Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen View Post
I wonder how Ford has packaged the LNT and DPF in the engine bay as a lot of manufacturers were worried about space underneath the bonnet.
Ecosport's engine bay is big and the 1.5 TDCi barely fills the bay. Also the export spec Ecosport gets a bigger 2.0 ltr Ti-VCT. So there is more than enough space in the engine bay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen View Post
Also, more importantly how they have priced it at just 13k premium than the BS IV model
Ford has used the opportunity to rationalize the premium pricing of Ecosport. This is price correction under the guise of BS6 implementation while also getting accolades for a lower hike owning to BS6
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Old 21st January 2020, 21:05   #72
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

Ford you beauty, what a marketing masterstroke. (Price correction or not)

They have unleashed sort of a trojan horse, now if other manufacturers hike BS6 prices too much everyone would question if ford could keep the prices minimal why couldnt they.

Waiting to see some details on how they have achieved BS6 compliance.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 08:58   #73
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

Really great to see a manufacturer willing to put in the efforts to provide a reliable BS6 diesel at sane prices. Maruti should take a cue that always has been complacent. With the build quality and pricing, this model can again have the potential to become a segment leader.
Indeed IMHO bs6 I guess is a situation created by manufacturers to milk more money from the prospective customers.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:56   #74
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

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Originally Posted by SaiSW View Post
means the 1.5 tdci will not die as many feared, it was especially a beast in cars like the aspire and i was disappointed that we will have to bid farewell to it.
Same here.
I have a nex gen figo petrol, The only thing I regret about this car is that it is a petrol, I should have got a diesel.

I am very impressed by the character of a ford car and the after sales experience with 3 different dealers had been very satisfactory.

If and when I change car next time, I would definitely consider Aspire diesel with all the bells and whisles.

Other alternatives I can think of are Ecosport or Hexa ( if I need more space )
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Old 22nd January 2020, 11:59   #75
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport BS6 launched at Rs 8.04 lakh

Good move by Ford with just a 13K bump to the existing prices.

Just hope its not short lived and Ford will start to increase prices once the others start declaring their BS6 prices (Ford has a history of doing such things and dropping it by removing features)

SYNC3 would have been a USP on lower trims and is a missed opportunity. Come on Ford, cars one or two segments lower have this as standard offering now.

Another interesting addition could be providing the S trim with Auto transmission since the Ecoboost has been discontinued and replaced by Dragon. The prices could breach the 15L bracket (atleast in Bangalore on-road) but could attract some buyers.
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