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Old 5th February 2020, 10:43   #16
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Ford Figo / Aspire BS6?
Currently, the Aspire Diesel carries a price tag of 6.99 lakhs whereas the Figo retails at 6.23 lakhs.
This is my choice. having owned Freestyle Diesel, few things which can make this a potential Dzire / Etios replacement are :

1) High Mileage
2) Low Maintenance
3) Great low end Torque
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Old 5th February 2020, 13:38   #17
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Looking at how everyone is moving to BS6 in Diesels, Maruti will definitely upgrade the 1.5 Diesel to BS6, I mean either that or end up losing a big chunk of the market share to competition.
Totally agree. With all new BS6 diesel launches being slightly higher priced than BS4, the earlier narrative of small BS6 engines being impractically expensive is out of door.

Maruti needs to tighten their laces otherwise they will perish like Nokia. Tata and Mahindra seem to be more prepared for the changes the industry is going through - be it safety or the regulations.
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Old 5th February 2020, 16:11   #18
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

I am sure Maruti would plonk their new 1.5 DDIS into the Dzire. There is no way Maruti would just let that portion of the cake to be eaten by its competitors

End of the day its a numbers game and the taxi segment is a huge number that no manufacturer would want to let go.

Down south diesel still rules. I know people with less than 10k kms running per yr and still opt for diesel. When asked they simply reply that its cheaper and gives better mileage.
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Old 5th February 2020, 18:56   #19
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

CNG is not as green as we think. CNG is the best fit upto Wagon R. Anything beyond, may not have the acceptable drive-ability, especially when loaded with luggage (Taxi).

On the other hand, it is very surprising to see many small Diesels do not command much price increase for BS VI. It would be very interesting to see the reliability of the LNT, DPF systems and host of electronics that monitors them. Perhaps their size (less than 1.5L) does the trick here. Amount of emissions under normal operating conditions may not be as bad compared to 2.0L and above capacity engines which enables them to use lighter / combo after-treatment devices.

If there's a frequent service requirements for the taxi segment, they may not like it. Diesel Particulate Filter does not like the stop-go traffic. I am curious to learn how this is handled in 1.5L mills.

If anyone has knowledge or worked in upgrade of small Diesels to BS VI, please share your opinion!
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Old 5th February 2020, 20:04   #20
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

What I hear is that Maruti Suzuki is bringing in their mild hybrids. If they can price is well, and the incremental mileage offset the Diesel premium will it not be a choice for taxi market?

Given how Maruti Suzuki protects its market share, they would be looking at options to bridge the gap until their Diesel Mill is BSVI ready. So CNG & Mild hybrids might be that bridge. If that means lowering their margins on them, it's worth it. Isn't it?
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Old 5th February 2020, 21:23   #21
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

Originally Posted by Eshan Joshi View Post
Plus they are reliable and have a low service cost.
Originally Posted by Sreesh1009 View Post
While Hyundais have good ride and build quality. They are in no way cheap to maintain.
From a Maintenance cost perspective neither of the options available in market will ever match upto a Toyota. I believe the Amaze Diesel Maintenance cost would be lower than Hyundai. But yes, I expect both Amaze Diesel and Xcent/Aura Diesel sales to go up due to the void created by the Etios/Dzire Diesel models.

Last edited by vsrivatsa : 5th February 2020 at 21:24.
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Old 5th February 2020, 23:48   #22
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

I've seen many Taxi drivers really satisfied with the Aspire diesel in Chennai. Not sure whether they's do it, but Ford would really benefit if they can strengthen their presence in tier 2 and tier 3 cities using Mahindra's dealers.
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Also what about MPVs? With the Ertiga diesel nowhere in sight...
No wonder MSIL was lobbying for alternate fuels- CNG models. The problem with CNG is long distance travel.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:58   #23
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

Personally I think Tata has missed a trick here. The zest was a known alternative to Etios and Dzire. This is a segment where perception is important and Zest would not have that issue. May be Tata can launch in an taxi only avatar?
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:54   #24
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

I believe CNG is going to available nationwide easily soon. In Delhi, as per government rule all local cabs have to be CNG, diesel is not allowed. And the number of CNG pumps is increasing day by day. Now there a number of CNG pumps on the way to Jaipur, making it possible to do Delhi-Jaipur runs on complete CNG.

Also, CNG is very cheap. I used to drive a CNG car till 5 years ago, and during those days I could drive 100kms in 200 rs worth of CNG(in an Aveo). With new technologies in CNG kits, they have become efficient as well as are offering pretty good performance.

I think we'll see adoption of CNG pan India very soon.
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Old 7th February 2020, 13:49   #25
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

Increased cost of Diesel engined car and the narrow difference between Petrol and Diesel fuels hardly justifies diesel taxi within city. In BS6 era it cannot be justified and even if options are available, CNG will eat lion's share followed by pure petrol. The lower maintenance and insurance costs of non-diesels also add significant margin to taxi owners.

Now there are options available in affordable electric cars to lower the demand of diesel taxies even further. At the moment there are expensive and lower range options, but things will suddenly change in few months. Let us see how they will be taken by car OEMs.

Diesel taxi market will shrink but long distance trips will continue to be served by it. Still, compact sedans will not have major share there given major investment cost. Instead MUVs and regular sedans will drive the commercial market.

Maruti Suzuki
I have seen new Heartec based DZire with yellow number plate. Most likely they have stopped production of old gen DZire. It is obvious MSIL wont give up that market share easily. They wont have DDIS 1.3 anymore and they don't need. I have seen so many petrol Dezires that it makes me believe diesel is losing its sheen faster than we're expecting. They will continue with BS6 1.2 petrol coupled with CNG for DZire and few other cars using same engine for taxi.

Further up they have covered Ertiga with BS6 1.5 petrol and CNG. Their sell from VDi was fast decreasing. So they have much to bother anyway. Ertiga will still sell highest in MUV taxi market. Ciaz will definitely have reduced consumers as they usually don't like boot to be occupied with CNG tank instead of airport luggage.

If they bring in BS6 1.5 DDiS (which I believe they will in 2021) they will have sustained market dominance.

Aura for private and Xcent for commercial segment. They have found a way to differentiate product among image based consumers. Being similar in size and BS6 compliant engines in petrol, diesel and CNG means they have secured their share in compact sedan taxi market. Hyundais have higher than average maintenance costs and that will continue to play role. Still, smaller capacity diesel will have huge advantage for Hyundai as this will be the only diesel with capacity lower than 1.5.

Upgrade of iDtec 1.5 to BS6 ensured Honda Amaze continue to offer options. They will lose on big CNG share though if not brought that variant fast. Both petrol and diesel offers decent performance and fuel economy and will continue its run on in city as well as outstation.

Both 1.5 engines for city will be BS6 keeping their share in premium sedan fleet, but not for long. It was expensive in the first place and the hotel fleet (who is their primary customer segment) will seek electric options which are not that distant.

Similar to Hyundai with their portfolio. Aspire and Figo have found their engines for BS6 with petrol, diesel and CNG. Competent engines with inexpensive maintenance can easily trump Hyundai except for the perception of premiumsness.

They have surrendered Taxi market to Maruti, Hyundai, Ford, Honda as a part of brand building among private consumers. No new cars were allocated to fleet except that they recently have sold few copies of Hexa to make some money from the demising product. Old age products like Indigo CS, Vista, Indica have their sales falling over and might have stopped by now. Along with it, mid age products, Zest and Bolt, have not been updated for BS6.

Will they be axed? I think they can continue producing Zest with petrol engine from Tiago with CNG as option and electric engine from Nexon. This combination has enough taker and will have enough presence in Fleet. Their X1 platform is not going away until Nexon is moved onto Alpha architecture. So Zest don't have much production problem. But I don't think they will invest for this minuscule sales. Hexa was being offered with fleet segment and I presume they can offer Gravitas to fleet after Hexa demise.

Tigor EV needs Ziptron to gain sales. In existing form it isn't cheap to buy anyway and Ziptron isn't that costly being mostly manufactured in India. This has potential to gain sales as the electric running costs are even lower than CNG. Good for in city commute by Ola/Uber. Noting exciting as of now for the fleet. Their strategy is very different compared to mainstream players.

Their taxi market in entry level is on KUV. 1.2 Diesel being axed does not matter much as it wasn't sold much either. The petrol had some takers and now they have unveiled electric version with motor shared with Logan. In both cases I don't expect it to gain much momentum until electric is upgraded with long range battery and doesn't cost much. It is not coming until 2022.

On further higher up their engines are getting BS6 upgrade which should help commercial players who run intercity. Further up segment is not that price concious. BS6 upgrade cost is ok for most.

The reliable 1.4D going out and so their 1.2/1/5P we can safely expect Toyota don't want to gain anything from cheap market. They have made up enough money from old platform and will free up some resources. Innova is their bread and butter for fleet with fat margins and they will have even more margin with Alphard/Hiace once brough in.

On a sidenote, used car sales is likely to zoom in the commercial market. Trusted cars, known maintenance means BS4 cars will live longer life than they supposed to be doing.
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Old 8th February 2020, 15:26   #26
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

IIRC, Maruti had stated that they would not be upgrading the 1.5 Diesel to BS6 at the time of launch. plus the shortening gap between petrol and diesel has eroded the advantages of owning a diesel car. I remember when I persuaded my dad to buy the diesel indica v2 in 2002, diesel was less than half the price of petrol and gave much better mileage. That is no longer the case.
CNG has a similar story. Back when it was launched, CNG made terrific sense if you could live with the spotty availability, long queues at filling stations and limited range. Now, unless you cover very high mileage, it does not make sense.
the way forward is definitely EVs, or in case that does not mature fast enough, hybrids. given the Indian penchant for "kitna deti hai", there would be a large percentage of drivers getting the stated mileage out of the hybrids in India.
Toyota has the tried and tested Prius in their portfolio. If they could launch that in India, it could fill the gap left by the Etios twins. With a 50mpg mileage compared to 33mpg from the Camry (I drove Both cars recently in the US), this could turn out to be a winner and Innova's counterpart in the sedan/compact sedan space...

Last edited by Ravi Parwan : 8th February 2020 at 15:36. Reason: another point to be added
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Old 9th February 2020, 17:46   #27
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

Originally Posted by wheelguy View Post
It always appears to me as if GOI is working in tandem with Maruti Suzuki to come up with its auto-industry related policies, if that is true, then Maruti can't go wrong with its CNG bet, we can see in future government pushing OMCs to establish more CNG outlets throughout the country alongside the EV push.
As said by me in above post, Maruti is working closely with GOI to push for CNG adoption. This is the reason why Maruti is confidently and optimistically expanding its CNG portfolio.

Maruti want to offset loss of numbers due to diesel discontinuation with CNG portfolio.

Looking to add CNG variants to other vehicles of the portfolio.

Excerpts from an interview with MSI Senior Executive Director (Engineering) C V Raman:
He further said the other option available to the company is to increase its CNG portfolio to partially offset loss from discontinuation of diesel vehicles.

The company has eight popular models offered with CNG option. "We will introduce (CNG option) on other models also because we have to expand further depending on customer requirement. We will do research and find out if there is requirement in all these areas. If required we will definitely do," Raman said.

The company's models which do not have CNG option are Swift, Baleno, Ciaz, Vitara Brezza and S-Cross.

He said the government's plans to increase CNG stations to 10,000 will enhance penetration of CNG in existing locations and also add new areas on the CNG network map and MSI is working closely with the government.

"When they are increasing in existing locations they are easing filling of CNG and when they are opening in new locations we are able to reach to a larger population...We are mapping the whole thing. Then we will propagate and democratize more. This fiscal we may end up selling 1.1 lakh CNG vehicles and we will do more," Raman said.
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Old 9th February 2020, 21:22   #28
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

The launch of the new hybrid from Suzuki could increase the real world mileage by several kms. This means the economy could be close to diesel counterpart. Assuming they add an aggressive brake regeneration, the real world efficiency could be better than diesel for some use cases. Even if it is just 48V system, the extra 13 bhp and regeneration capabilities could make it suitable for a cab if price is close to it's diesel counterpart.
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Old 9th February 2020, 21:23   #29
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

I think Honda has much to gain given the most popular larger taxi vehicles today are vacatiing the space - the Etios Liva, Swift Desire, Lodgy, Ertiga Diesel etc. The diesel engine plonked into a cheaper "tour" version of Mobilio/BRV can offer a good option for space and practicality.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:57   #30
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Default Re: BS6 impact on the Indian taxi scene?

What stopped Tata from putting the Nexon or Altroz's diesel engine in the Zest? After all, the Nexon and Zest share the same platform. Have they completely given up on the Taxi market?
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