[Gurkha]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Gurkha, maybe the world-wide dislike of Japanese cars as enthusiast's machines stems from the fact that barrind the NSX, and to some extent the Skyline GT-R, no supercar ever came from east of the Suez. There are no in-your-face-low-snarling-ripsnorting-500bhp mid-engined monsters that wear an Asian badge. Not in stock form again.

Personally, my favourite cars are the Dodge Viper, the Lambo Murci and the GT-R 34. So you know where I stand on this topic.

Samurai, Gurkha, Steeroid: While I appreciate the fact that you are all older, by atleast 10 years (I'm guessing), than us "youngsters", I would appreciate it if you refrained from bringing the age card up again and again. You may think that you are more mature, but maturity is not about how long you have lived, but how much you have learnt. If you are willing to engage in argument, please treat the other as your equal, and stop the condescending we-know-better tone.

All this philosophising...this is what happens khaali pet...time to get a beer

So Supra, Subaru WRX, Acura Integra GSR, Mitsubishi Evo, Mazda RX-8, Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR-4 aren't that exciting for you or you are being selectively blind.

And I did not play the age card so don't put me in that category please.

[v1p3r]

If you wish to attack me on my choice of cars, yes, the WRX, EVO, Supra, 3000 GT, while all being nice, are just not in the same league as my holy trinity.

FYI, the GT-R 34 that I refer to is a Nissan product. We all know that Nissan is Japanese. Also, I am an avid Ferrari hater...well, atleast of the newer ones. And don't even get me started on Mercedes-Benz.

If you did not play the age card, I apologize.

[RX135]

JD Power is not really as scientific as CR, thats a know fact all over the industry, so Japanese cars still rule as per the latest CR/CNN Money report. JD Powers bases their ratings on average customer feedback, I should know as I have been a regular participant in the past and if you were to base it entirely on that, Maruti has done better than all others.

Ironically, it is the same JD power rating, which people used to pitch against German cars till very recently. Just because it is not convenient for argument, one can not discard it. And it is the average user, who finally drives the car, so his perception is important. And yes, the ratings are updated every year.

A US$60,000+ car which needs its engine to be opened up for service in a short time of ownership due to a faulty bearing design is not a rip off, it is rewarding customers for their loyalty.

The car in question is Porsche. It is not that only Porsche had had such issues, even Toyota had massive recall of its prestigous hybrid cars early this year. Now, Toyota is a much bigger company with more resources than Porsche. If Porsche fails, it is a rip off and if a toyota fails, then it is generous gesture of recalling. Why?

I have nothing personal against MB or any other Euro brand but their history speaks for themselves, in a Euro biased world in US, it isn't' Japanese charm that made them win over customers, it is the sheer value and reliability as exhibited by my 130,000 miles Mazda Protege' or my 530,000 miles and still going strong 94 Accord V6, thats what gets customer loyalty.

And neither do I hold any shares of MB or VW to sing their praise. You are comparing peach with apple. MB is more of prestigous luxury brand and most Japanese cars (barring Lexus) are economical variants. And incidently, till late 2004, MB sales were continuously rising. Talking about history, I don't have to repeat history of MB/DC. The history will speak about itself. Establishing Lexus is surely an achievement, but then it is still considered a copycat design, inspired from German cars. About mileage, I remember reading a post on T-BHP about a Merc running well for 20,00,000 miles.

Now I do feel that people deserve to know every point of view and opinion and suppressing them is doing disservice to this forum unless the mods feel otherwise and in that case, I shall gladly withdraw and stop participating in this forum.

Hell no. There have been heated debates on this forum earlier as well, and just because you have different opinion than me (or even a moderator) does not imply you have to quit the forum. Any debate, without getting personal, is good for forum.

I just fail to see the logic in this country of mine of people being so rabidly Europhille almost to the term of illogic and so much hatred, bias and misinformation is vented to wards Asians in general, specially Orientals.

I am sorry, but where did this conclusion come from? For professional reasons, I have worked with Germans/British/Americans/Russians and few chinese/Japanese as well. I have closely worked with Germans and I find them least social/friendly people. But that doesnt take anything away from their engineering. I am a mech. engineer and appreciate their near perfectionist approach to engineering.

I never said anything bad about Japanese or Koreans. Neither do I rate Europeans superior than us. I said this earlier as well that, if appreciating good engineering from Germans/Europeans amounts to slave mentality, then discrediting their good things indicates insecure mentality, which is typical of oppressed class. I do not consider it patriotic to hate a British now for what they did 60 years back.

And I stay in India by choice, when it was easily possible to study/settle in any country in Europe or US. I don't stay there and criticise Indians back home of having slave mentality or call them "rabidly europhille". I sincerely apologize for bringing personal stuff here, but I had no other way to rebutt this tag of "rabidly europhille".

[Gurkha]

RX-135,

It is inexcusable for a company with the pedigree and price tag like Porsche to blatantly release a severely faulty product to its customers, years back, heads would have rolled in Germany, apologies and compensation given, German craftsmanship pride would have made sure that this was never to happen, not today, it is lazy, greedy Germany who is having a good time marketing their names to gullible nouveau rich looking for prestige, if you go to Germany, most Germans personally prefer Japanese brands due to the reliability factor. Comparing the Porsche incident to Toyota's hybrid recall is a bit vague, hybrid technology is still in its infancy stage and glitches are but expected as long term ownership and feedback is yet to be established.

About J.D. Powers, I still stand by my contention, they are not scientific and is more of a marketing gimmick used by different manufacturers including Japanese from time to time.

About European engineering and craftsmanship, I won't take away their past achievements in any sense just like no one can take away ancient India's or China's huge contributions, but I talk in present context and the pendulum is on toward the Oriental side, particularly Japanese and no one can take that away from them either. I criticize Indians because I see it as it is, it is like a cult thing with the current generation to overtly worship the west, only when they go there, do they realize the reality after getting a shock. The sad part is we all are slaves of the English language, from childhood, we are fed with the west is superior image and it takes a severe beating and introspect to come out of that shell, I should know, at 16 when I went to US supposedly for good, I was very much a west worshipper even though my late father told me I would change, if he were to be alive, he would probably have a big smile on his face.

v1p3r,

The cars that I mentioned are not supposed to be in any mythical league, they just simply are cars that are designed to do their intended job year after year. Having extensively driven both Euro high performance cars as well as Japanese, can tell you that the later are in every bit as much of a sports car as their Euro counterparts, the western people like to mystify their own and put it on the pedestal of the holy grail, sadly there is no cure for that.

[v1p3r]

Gurkha

Yes, the media and populace in general, especially Clarskon and his ilk, tend to romanticize Western cars.

If you notice, I listed three disparately different cars. The Viper, for sheer brashness and aggression, and there's no arguing with an 8(.3) litre engine! The Lambo, for drop-dead gorgeous looks, and driving potential to match. The Skyline, for, well, there's no way to put it.

My choices are not dictated by public opinion or rose-tinted, West-loving glasses, if I may say so.

BTW, aren't the 617 engines the Mercedes 300D engines? Please elaborate!

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by Gurkha

..... the western people like to mystify their own and put it on the pedestal of the holy grail, sadly there is no cure for that.

Thats called hype. Most people fall for it, especially when combined with the kind of media exposure like:

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Yes, the media and populace in general, especially Clarskon and his ilk, tend to romanticize Western cars.

However,

Originally Posted by RX135

I said this earlier as well that, if appreciating good engineering from Germans/Europeans amounts to slave mentality, then discrediting their good things indicates insecure mentality

is putting words into Gurkha's mouth, because I dont think he ever meant to say that Euro/German cars are BAD. His point was that there are others who do things as well, and whose work is not appreciated purely because they carry a certain tag. I agree with that, while the latter part of RX's quote is an extrapolation of Gurkha's original contention.

[RX135]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

is putting words into Gurkha's mouth, because I dont think he ever meant to say that Euro/German cars are BAD. His point was that there are others who do things as well, and whose work is not appreciated purely because they carry a certain tag.

I dont have to put words in anyone's mouth. If anyone says, MB cars are crap and Audi is junk, how else am I supposed to interpret it? I don't remember flaming Japanese cars in my earlier posts. If Lexus is considered reliable but copy cat design, it is not me saying it. I am talking about people's perception about Lexus, on which I have no control. I find it very funny to flame German cars just because someone likes Japanese cars (and vice versa).

[Rtech]

When did this thread bacome about East vs West vs Far East (and I'm not talking the cars here)?

To members on this forum, a car is more than the sum of its mechanical parts. Yes, the Japanese rule the auto market when it comes to reliability and engine refinement, and sure they make some of the best cars in the world, but if someone prefers a German/French/American car over a Japanese car, who are we to flame him for that.

Argue all you want about how the Japs are better or how the Germans are better (depending on which side you are), but at the end of the day everyone will have their personal favorite, and that's all this thread has asked "what car do you prefer", so lets not make this into more than that.

[The Wolf]

German cars are too expensive for the little extra pampering they ooze out...

French machines,,,dont even know what they do to get their cars moving, but they do...My ignorance will keep me away from from those brute french muttha's...

Korean...hmmmm...naaaa...After all they are korean(koorean)...Japanese travesty!!!

American,,,SUV's....good, damn good...otherwise "Wanna be's"

Japanese,,,way to go...Doesnt "Vtec" wake the hell out of your pleasantest dream??Dont lie pls...

[Gurkha]

RX-135,

By calling Lexus copycat, you are toeing to the biased, heavily jaundiced and racist perception of the western media for anything from the east, although luckily the public there thinks otherwise or else Lexus will go out of business. Actually, BBC did a head to head study on a second hand Lexus, MB and BMW, the Lexus held the best. CR has already confirmed this in many years of report of long term ownership.

I have not bashed Euro vehicles, only pointed to pertaining studies, reports etc. toward the reliability factor, considering the myth that surrounds them, it is good to open eyes sometimes, trust me, if I see any Japanese vehicles claiming to be $60,000+ with shoddy history, I would post that as well. I have owned vehicles from both parts of the world and therefore have no bias. Looks like you should go out and buy some MB shares or become their de facto spokesperson considering the hurt you seem to take when constructive criticism is administered to cars of your liking, you bias clearly shows. Maybe you have too low expectations and perceptions about people from the east.

I guess India should start harping about teaching the west how to count or the Chinese should actually claim many more. The world doesn't bank on perceptions like copying, if that was the case, the US copied the entire German V2 rocket program and so did Russia, the nuclear program, thermal sensors and the list goes on, it was only 20 years back, US was prepared to reward in millions to any Mig-27 pilot who would defect and bring the plane to US shores, guess they were dying to copy it.

[Gurkha]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Gurkha

Yes, the media and populace in general, especially Clarskon and his ilk, tend to romanticize Western cars.

If you notice, I listed three disparately different cars. The Viper, for sheer brashness and aggression, and there's no arguing with an 8(.3) litre engine! The Lambo, for drop-dead gorgeous looks, and driving potential to match. The Skyline, for, well, there's no way to put it.

My choices are not dictated by public opinion or rose-tinted, West-loving glasses, if I may say so.

BTW, aren't the 617 engines the Mercedes 300D engines? Please elaborate!

v1p3r,

I fully see your point, the Viper indeed is bundle of fun at a very low cost and would be my choice over any high priced Euro sports car considering the bang you get from the all aluminum V-10 push-rod engine originally slated for truck chassis. I drove it and the low end torque is phenomenal, the engine only revs till 4400rpm so those who like high RPMs wont' be happy with it, even with a torsen-gleason rear, it happily spins those massive chunks of rubber with ease, and that too in high gear.

MB 300D W123 is OM 617, either in normally aspirated or turbo variant, MB 240D W115, W123 is OM 616 N/A. If by elaborate you meant details, they are all iron, dual purpose engines made to be super smooth for luxury taxis as well as haul load in various MB apps including Tempo Traveller, Trax, G Wagen, MB Trucks and of course, the Unimog. The turbo OM 616 engine in the Gurkha also does duty in the famous Bofors gun.

The OM 616/617 series and W123 chassis are MB legend, the engines have nothing fancy, mechanically IP, extremely frugal and heavily de-tuned, with little maintenance, they usually last over 500,00 miles.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

French machines,,,dont even know what they do to get their cars moving, but they do...My ignorance will keep me away from from those brute french muttha's...

They're quite nice, actually. Peuguot Citroen and Renault make some really good cars - quite solid and quietly classy inside. Its their penchant for outrageous design cues that puts one off sometimes - its almost as though they are trying hard to be different, to show the world that they're French.

They could've sprayed the interiors with garlic perfume to show the cars are French - at least you can get rid of that. What dyou do with a horrible looking vehicle like the Vel Setis?

[RX135]

Originally Posted by Gurkha

By calling Lexus copycat, you are toeing to the biased, heavily jaundiced and racist perception of the western media for anything from the east, although luckily the public there thinks otherwise or else Lexus will go out of business.

Oops! Looks like I have rubbed on wrong side. Incidently, I have few friends who are working right now in Japan with 2 big automobile manufactures (no prizes for guessing one of them). I will not elaborate further on what all they have seen or not seen, but let's just say that copy cat tag is definitely not untrue and not just media hype. I am not understanding this: First you bashed up media for calling lexus copy cat, then you suggest that copying is a global phenomenon. I also don't understand when you call MB/audi as expensive junks and then call it as constructive criticism and nothing BAD about German cars. All I had said that, along with recent reliability problems, appreciate the engineering that goes behind a German car.

So, let's also just say that I am racist and biased towards German machines and am a wanna-be MB spokesperson, and close the discussion.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by RX135

So, let's also just say that I am racist and biased towards German machines and am a wanna-be MB spokesperson, and close the discussion.

Easy there, RX. You just ended up calling yourself a Fascist Pig .....
Sieg Heil (hic) !

[Gurkha]

Originally Posted by RX135

Oops! Looks like I have rubbed on wrong side. Incidently, I have few friends who are working right now in Japan with 2 big automobile manufactures (no prizes for guessing one of them). I will not elaborate further on what all they have seen or not seen, but let's just say that copy cat tag is definitely not untrue and not just media hype. I am not understanding this: First you bashed up media for calling lexus copy cat, then you suggest that copying is a global phenomenon. I also don't understand when you call MB/audi as expensive junks and then call it as constructive criticism and nothing BAD about German cars. All I had said that, along with recent reliability problems, appreciate the engineering that goes behind a German car.

So, let's also just say that I am racist and biased towards German machines and am a wanna-be MB spokesperson, and close the discussion.

See, you don't have to make me appreciate German engineering, I had the best of it, and still drive one example, and speaking of relatives in Japan, I have my own brother in Germany working for MAN and my uncle is ex MB engineer who was on the OM 616/617 project, according to both of them, ideas are exchanged by everyone across the globe.

If the Japanese were copycats, they won't be at the top, it took Europe 40 long years to catch up to Japanese motorcycle technology, and they still are nowhere near considering MotoGP results, the innovative and super high tech Honda F-1 engines in the 80s won races not because they copied, but because they were far ahead of any of their competitors. 4 valves per cylinder was already in Honda Civic in the 80s in US, mind you Civic is a eco car, no MB, VW, Audi or BMW had that tech for their street cars.

Speaking of longevity, a recent US DOT survey found that there are more small Subaru and Honda Civic hatchbacks from the 70s running registered on the road in US than any other brand, mind you, they were slated as super eco car not meant to last.

All of us should thank the Japanese for giving us cutting edge technology without the high price tag, now what is wrong in that unlike European cars where myth would add $$$$$ to the cost of ownership. From super high tech race machines with moderate price tag to exciting four wheelers like Mitsu Evo, Subaru WRX, Honda Civic Type R, all within reach of us common public, you see not all of us are blessed and wealthy like you are, at least we can plan to satisfy ourselves with the cheap, proletariat Japanese cars and bikes.

Arrigato.