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Old 16th February 2020, 11:39   #31
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by mohan41 View Post
Won't this work - Drive only in 1st or 2nd gear to keep RPM above 2000. If stopped at a signal just rev the engine to > 2000RPM in neutral?
The user manual recommends that you drive in the higher RPMs in 3rd gear or higher, continuously for 20 minutes or more.

BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity-screenshot_20200216113333.png

Even if you plan to keep it above 2000 RPMs even when idling, how wise would it be to do it for 20-30 mins? Not a practical solution. The best solution would be "Live To Drive". After a long work day, take your car out at night and go on a longish drive to have some ice cream at the cafeteria on the nearest highway!
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Old 16th February 2020, 15:46   #32
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I work on trucks primarily. Irrespective of vehicle class, DPFs are designed to ensure that the customer does not do anything to clean it. There will be cleaned by the appropriate regeneration strategy which is mostly not of relevance to the customer.

But that said, there is always that one customer who has a driving cycle in which temp does not even exceed 200 Deg C over a long period of time. Recreating this cycle in itself a big pain for me. The service manual instruction is for this extreme customer and not for anyone else.

To create a problematic cycle in trucks, we had a run the vehicle for about 30 mins, stop for 15 mins and run again. This went on for 3-4 days to load the DPF. I cant imagine a customer who will exclusively run in such a drive cycle.

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
Yes, this applies to BS6 diesel cars with DPF. These filters remove the NOx from the exhaust and store it. After some usage, when the filter is full, it needs to be regenerated by injecting fuel and driving at speeds to increase exhaust temperature which will burn the soot.

For the regeneration to be completed, this high temperatures have to be maintained consistently for 20 minutes or more. In a pure city use case, when do you get an opportunity to drive at 2000+ rpm for more than 20 mins?
Just a clarification. DPF removes soot. LNT removes NOX. Your statements are applicable for soot alone.

Technically, for a typical customer, DPF should be designed such that you don't have to worry about it. This regeneration is included in the manual for an extreme customer (assuming the right DPF was chosen during design)

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Let's wait and watch for results with these small diesel engines with Nox traps, and even the larger ones with DPFs without Ad Blue type systems. We already have reports of Kia Seltos owners facing clogged DPFs, allegedly due to use of BS4 fuel - I suspect that is not the case, and the problem is that our urban driving cycles do not let the soot burn appropriately. I am almost certain that all of these cars will face real world driving problems, and will not really be compliant with BS6 standards. If Mercedes could not meet Euro 6 standards at its price point, what are the odds that Ford can do so for USD 200 over a BS4 engine?
BS4 fuel has high sulphur. I am told that trucks(my area of work) tested with BS4 fuel(outside NCR) were reported for issues in a week or so. I can see multiple issues arising from Sulfur in fuel like
DOC poor performance
Al sulfate production and clogging
Deactivation of LNT/SCR

On the other hand, I have no clue why a BS6 diesel was sold to anyone so soon even if it was in NCR. LNT is proven technology globally and should suffice for BS6 diesel transition. I am not quite sure about the price points though. The price does not vary much from OEM to OEM, but marketing strategies hide the real price delta.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 16th February 2020 at 16:47. Reason: Typo corrected. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 16th February 2020, 17:15   #33
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
I work on trucks primarily. Irrespective of vehicle class, DPFs are designed to ensure that the customer does not do anything to clean it. There will be cleaned by the appropriate regeneration strategy which is mostly not of relevance to the customer.

But that said, there is always that one customer who has a driving cycle in which temp does not even exceed 200 Deg C over a long period of time.
There could be more such customers when it comes to private cars. Quoting a post from another thread here:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post4736747 (Innova Crysta BS6 Diesel to come only with 2.4L engine)
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Old 16th February 2020, 21:33   #34
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

I am a very firm Diesel engine believer and buyer for pure economic reasons. Yes, they may pollute more but the difference negligible for personal vehicles. I am sure there are more like me around who will be disappointed if Maruti and Nissan don't launch new BSVI small diesel engines.

Are they missing out the wave? Is it going to be a bad mistake like Nokia ignore Android and subsequently perished? Only time will tell!!
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Old 16th February 2020, 22:58   #35
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

Who is not on the BS6 bandwagon yet?

1. Skoda - no BS6 cars at all. Octy goes away. Rapid 1.0L TSI coming soon. Superb and Kodiaq go to Petrol BS6 only. Karoq coming soon.
2. VW - Vento and Polo go to 1.0L TSI. T-roc and Tiguan Allspace in Petrol only.
3. Mahindra - only XUV300 petrol is BS6.
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Old 18th February 2020, 20:10   #36
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by SahilS View Post
But what they don't quote is, how frequently we need to do this. What is that interval? After how many KMs of driving, this needs to be done?
If this regeneration is required once every 500 km or more, it should be achievable for most of us.

A quick google search says it is required every 300 miles or 500kms. Is this the case for all BS6 diesel engines?

But if it is required after say every 100-200 kms for some cars, maintaining such BS6 diesel cars is going to be problem for maximum urban commuters.

If we can't go on a long run, then one way I see to unclog the DPF is to drive in lower gears, say once every week to keep rpms high. Will this also do the job as the main requirement is to get the engine hot for regeneration.

If anyone with knowledge in this regard can shed some light on this, it will be very helpful.
.
I posed the above questions to an engineer working on DPF on cars and got the answer specific to their 1.5L engine.
1. There will be a DPF cleaning cycle approximately 800 kms in city drive and 1200 kms in highway. This will vary with many factors, including driving behavior. These numbers are for a 'good' driver.
2. This cycle will last for 30 mins.
3. There is no way a customer can know if the cleaning in going on.
4. Stopping the vehicle during an regeneration event is ok. Algorithms will determine whether to continue regenerating or not during the next start.
5. Only if the regeneration event fails repeatedly will you be forced to take your vehicle for a drive and this is a fall back for an extreme customer.


Hope this answers your queries.
PS: My earlier post #32 was written from my experience in trucking and is misleading. I was under the assumption that regeneration in cars would only happen in extreme cases. On further discussion, I realized that they cars behave very differently than what I had previously thought.

Last edited by sukarsan : 18th February 2020 at 20:24. Reason: Addition of information
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Old 19th February 2020, 01:27   #37
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
I work on trucks primarily. Irrespective of vehicle class, DPFs are designed to ensure that the customer does not do anything to clean it. There will be cleaned by the appropriate regeneration strategy which is mostly not of relevance to the customer.
I have worked on commercial vehicles from all LOBs (equipped with engines made by an American manufacturer, as well as their home grown engines) for nearly two years, and in terms of BSVI preparedness at the dealerships, installation and construction of the following are mandatory:

1. Exhaust extraction system (up to 750C / 1000C capacity).
2. Separate regeneration bays - if allocated inside the workshop, they are supposed to be accompanied by heat shielding partitions, if allocated outside, then it is supposed to be away from any residential building.

Why? Only for DPF regenration. Mostly, DPF regeneration is not a big deal for large commercial vehicles because they ply for hours on the highways. The same does not apply to vehicles plying in the city primarily.

The education level of customers and drivers of commercial vehicles is not that high. Despite that, they will be made aware of the systems in order to avoid any situation which might make the ECU switch to limp home mode, and things might get ugly if you have a huge consignment to deliver. So customers will need to keep an eye on the instrument cluster. Hence this is very relevant to them.

DPF regeneration can be done at idle technically, but manufacturers do not recommend and some do not allow the process to start if the system detects that the vehicle is stationary, because:

1. Wastes a lot of fuel.
2. Accumulation of high temperature exhaust fumes around the vehicle. Very dangerous in closed areas like a garage.
3. Noise.

In every vehicle (passenger or commercial), the software will be smart enough to do the cleaning process in the background Only if the conditions are favourable to perform a regeneration (read, longish drives). For everything else, we'll have the instrument cluster nanny!

Regards!

Last edited by shankha007 : 19th February 2020 at 01:53. Reason: Addition of facts and restructuring of sentences.
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Old 19th February 2020, 16:31   #38
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

This news comes just when we all are thinking that Maruti has given the taxi segment to its competitors on a platter!

"BS6 Maruti Suzuki Ertiga Tour M Diesel Spied On Test".

Source: https://gaadiwaadi.com/bs6-maruti-su...spied-on-test/
Attached Images
 

Last edited by romeomidhun : 19th February 2020 at 16:33.
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Old 19th February 2020, 16:53   #39
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

One quick question - Why Fiat is not investing in making their bread and butter 1.3 diesel motor BS6 compliant? They can easily get good volumes from Maruti, Tata and may be some more. Why this Kolaveri Fiat? Do you really have any plans coming up for India?
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Old 19th February 2020, 17:06   #40
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
One quick question - Why Fiat is not investing in making their bread and butter 1.3 diesel motor BS6 compliant? They can easily get good volumes from Maruti, Tata and may be some more. Why this Kolaveri Fiat? Do you really have any plans coming up for India?
Yes, looks like plan is to say Bye Bye India . Jeep seems a better option for India given we love SUV's. They can't fight Maruthi/Hyundai with hatchbacks and sedans are dying anyway. Now that Maruthi/Tata has 1.5L mill, they would not wan't to pay royalty to Fiat.
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Old 19th February 2020, 17:55   #41
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
3. There is no way a customer can know if the cleaning in going on.
I observe drop in fuel economy by 3-4 km/l every 14-15 days (600-700 kms) in my Seltos diesel under same driving and traffic conditions. Guess this is due to regeneration.
Normally I get 19-20 km/l on my office commute of 20 kms one way and see it dropping to 16-17 km/l in above mentioned cycles.
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Old 19th February 2020, 18:04   #42
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/te...h-4954301.html
Quote:
BSVI Hyundai Venue has been launched at a starting price of Rs 6.7 lakh for the petrol variant. The new 1.5-litre diesel model has been launched at a starting price of Rs 8.09 lakh, up to Rs 55,000 costlier than before.

The new 1.5-litre diesel engine replaces the 1.4-litre option of the previous model.
From this article, looks like cost of upgrading to a BS-6 compliant engine depends on the variant

For the base E model it costs 33K extra and the next variant S is now 55K extra!! The SX version costs just 20K extra (thanks to 9.99 road tax slabs / TCS limits) and the same SX with dual tone sees a 33K increase. The top end SX(O) costs 46K extra.

I think S variant and the top end have good sales hence the price jack up
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Old 30th July 2020, 14:32   #43
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
I posed the above questions to an engineer working on DPF on cars and got the answer specific to their 1.5L engine.
1. There will be a DPF cleaning cycle approximately 800 kms in city drive and 1200 kms in highway. This will vary with many factors, including driving behavior. These numbers are for a 'good' driver.
2. This cycle will last for 30 mins.

Hope this answers your queries.
PS: My earlier post #32 was written from my experience in trucking and is misleading. I was under the assumption that regeneration in cars would only happen in extreme cases. On further discussion, I realized that they cars behave very differently than what I had previously thought.
Hi sukarsan,
I have a question regarding 2L engines. Mine is a C220D BS6 model, so it comes with DPF & SCR. After the Corona outbreak, the only limited usage is, the drive to office and back. I use a toll road for 8-9KM and that is only time I can do some speed. To keep the revs above 2k, I drive in manual mode once in a while but that will be lasting just a couple of minutes. I guess I need to drive it hard for 10-15min once in a few weeks.
Does the speed matter ? What if you are doing only 40-50kmph, but drive in lower gears to keep the revs high ? Now, with reduced traffic, I take like 35min to cover 23KM one way, and there won't be a 30min cycle after a proper engine warm up.
Do you have any suggestions ?
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