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Old 3rd March 2020, 11:24   #16
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

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Originally Posted by RoadMonkey View Post
Counter - Honda Jazz. Excellent car, safe (as opposed to Baleno), good driving dynamics (as opposed to i20) and offers a segment only feature if you're looking for automatics - paddle shifters.

Except being value for money, Honda Jazz ticks every box and yet, it's not selling at numbers which could inspire even a little confidence in a prospective buyer. It sold 46 units in January. Had it been selling close to even 1k mark, I'd buy one eyes closed. It's such a capable and good car, but it's the sales which are absolutely shocking for such a car. I can't, for the life of me, understand why it's so unpopular. Hondas also tend to be reliable, unlike the germans.
Let me tell you why I did not like it in comparison to i20 and Baleno. I do not remember the feature wise differences as I has checked it out a few years ago for a friend.

1. Looks like a shortened minivan than a car. i20 looks sporty , Baleno too looks sporty.
2. Feels cheap inside out, the body panels , dashboard etc felt like a downgrade in comparison to i20.
3. While ivtec is lively on the open road, it's a pain to drive in the city, Baleno is better and i20 has good driveability as well. We have a brio in our garage and it's nobody's favorite.
4. Noisy, even in petrol and the rear seats are even less insulated from road noise.
5. Nothing special with respect to driving experience, steering feel was nowhere as sharp as a polo to note.

There was nothing to draw you towards a Honda at that time, it was nothing special to compete against the other two. Baleno simply felt the most VFM and i20 was better built and overall a premium hatch worth the compromise in terms of space.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 13:24   #17
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

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Originally Posted by RaghavEvoX View Post
Doesn't make sense at least in the current scenario. If this was the case , Nano wouldn't have bombed and Creta wouldn't have been selling like hot cakes all these years. I would prefer calling Indians 'Safe buyers' who like fuss-free ownership experience & long-term reliability.
By 'cheap' Russell Peters never meant that Indians are literally cheap. I also did not mean that. Cheap here pertains to best bang for the buck, quality, reliability, easy on pocket in the long term and most importantly acceptance by the peers.

Nano had 'cheap car' connotation associated with it (cheap here meaning sasta literally), wasn't acceptable to most Indians buying a car for social acceptance in addition to regular demands and needs of a car buyer. Alto and 800 are on the other hand seen as small cars but not associated with cheap cars for poor people.

Creta sells like hot cakes is a perceived notion. Bolero has been doing those numbers not for months but almost 20 years now. I consider Bolero to be a crude product thougg. Not everyone who can afford a Merc or BMW is buying them, they settle for something else like a Honda or a Toyota. Analysing Indian buying taste and behaviour is in itself complex and doesn't necessarily make sense.

People also take into consideration what they would be seen as by their social circle if they go for a particular car. In different parts of the country, every Indian is 'cheap' in his own sense.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 17:45   #18
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

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Originally Posted by RaghavEvoX View Post
As automakers are adjusting their strategies to grow in this market, Which are the brands you would shy away from buying because of their sales numbers ?
This might sound bewildering, but my take from current times is Honda.

For a brand that has had such a long and grand presence, it is simply appalling to see how they've lost focus and are playing second fiddle to new entrants.

In one of their showrooms, which I walked into after dropping off our Brio for a routine maintenance, there was barely anyone to show around.

Although I'm a big fan of their man-maximum, machine-minimum philosophy, for now, I'm staying a little away.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:17   #19
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

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Originally Posted by RoadMonkey View Post
Counter - Honda Jazz. Excellent car, safe (as opposed to Baleno), good driving dynamics (as opposed to i20) and offers a segment only feature if you're looking for automatics - paddle shifters.

Except being value for money, Honda Jazz ticks every box and yet
Except VFM? VFM is key! I remember when it was launched, it was priced exorbitantly,so much so that if you stretched a bit you could get into the City territory.

This when the smarter car manufacturers (in an Indian context) tend to price low, gain market share and slowly bump up market share and push up prices as they go along - hello Hyundai, Kia, Maruti etc etc.

Honda shot itself in the foot the day it launched by commanding a premium imo it didn't deserve and thus compromised market share.

Moment it became a 'costly hatchback', word of mouth meant poor sales and this is a vicious cycle.

For all the trash talk we do here in the forum about reliability and Maruti (mostly on the safety aspects), they make super reliable machines with the largest ASS network. Reliability with a Maruti (in terms of niggles, maintenance, ASS etc is a given), while Honda lacks the same network spread.

Sorry but the likes of Honda, Toyota and Nissan have shot themselves in the foot - at least Toyota hawks its age old Innova platform, and that too for a massive premium, the other two have nothing going for them.

Why is Honda so moribund? They have a superb line up, a warchest (a $ 6Bn in operating profit itself) and if they want to, can definitely get upto 10% market share in a 5 year horizon if they wanted to.

Look at their product offering...they have a 8l INR (onroad starting) car as their 'entry level' model in a market where more than 50% of sales by volume is in a whole segment below. Then we have the City a sedan in a segment that is dead for now and then...I am not even sure the CRV still exists. I actually forgot, the Civic, a solid car but again, overpriced imo.

With this insipid line up, how do they even expect to sell anything?

Where is the for India <4m hatch? And given African demands, like a Hyundai or actually even a Nissan, this could also be a good volume driver for this market as well as the LatAm markets where demand for compact, cheap hatches is there.

They had an inspirational product once in the CRV, and then failed to launch many other gens of this model, and entirely missed the CSUV boat which Ford launched with esport, and Hyundai took it up a notch and then some with the Creta and Seltos later just took the crown outright. Honda had its brilliant HR-V sitting there in the line up, waiting to be introduced to the pitch when the likes of the Creta, Ecosport didn't even exist. Imagine a second gen HRV being launched in India around 2014-15 (around the time the Creta was being launched), at a competitive price, it had a strong chance of taking a large chunk of the volumes the Creta ate. Now? It 'plans' on introducing the HR-V into India, a full 6-8 years after the C-Suv churn.

You also need aspirational products at the top end, so where are the Type R's? The model E line that can get some talk in the enthusiast side of the business going.

I have zero sympathy for the likes of Honda, Nissan, Toyota and Fiat - they have a global line up, they have the money to make a for India car, they have the marketing budgets, they have the warchest to eat temporary loses by pricing cars attractively (or at least earn minimal profits) and they squandered it all because of some mistaken belief that 'brand value and badge value' will just sell blindly.

No it won't, there needs to be a compelling value proposition, offer that, and like Kia and Hector, even with a 15l+ car, you will laugh all the way to the bank.
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Old 4th March 2020, 13:02   #20
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

Of all the products that are listed by manufacturers, some of them are desirable. As rightly pointed out by Crazy Driver and the cars listed by him are great but reliability and service support can be a gamble. Availability of spares in longer run is a question mark as well.

If you look at the cars which were once considered to be truly desirable and enthusiast's car in past has been a hassle to maintain as compared cars sold in volume. One example could be Linea vs (City and Verna).

I believe a lot depends upon service and customer support from OEM and dealer. If OEM is taking care of dealer, the latter will take care of customers (mostly) and when we spend our big amount of money on cars, we take care of our cars as well. At the end of day, Dear Risky manufacturers, take care!

Last edited by Aditya : 5th March 2020 at 10:28. Reason: Spacing
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Old 4th March 2020, 13:57   #21
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

I have "been there done that" in my car purchases through the years and based on my experiences here are my few cents.

Before talking about risky manufacturers, I would like to enumerate the types of major risks I would like to avoid:

1. The car is too expensive to repair/ service.
2. The car sells in low numbers thereby effecting general desirability and resale.
3. Unreliable manufacturer with a dark history- better stay miles away.
4. New manufacturer - avoid being a guinea pig.
5. Manufacturer not updating its product portfolio or service stations.
6. Lack of spares availability in service stations and with outside vendors.

That being said , the list of manufacturers I would love to distance from includes.
- Volkswagen/ Skoda and all germans to be honest
- Fiat/ Jeep
- Mitsubishi
- Nissan/ Renault
- Ford (Although I love the Endeavour)
- MG

The first priority brands I would consider making a purchase understanding the value of hard earned money and peace of mind include:

- Maruti Suzuki ( esp. NEXA)- Reliable, Affordable and Practical, more importantly, all the functions of the car work as desired, reliably for years.
- Hyundai- Top notch products with superior quality.
- TATA- Safe, Reliable ( If you are lucky ) , good designs (initial and newer vehicles) and priced competitively.

In case I wish to move from the above mentioned brands I may consider:

- Toyota- If sense prevails and they come up with a good product which is priced sensibly as well.
- KIA- Good designs and exhaustive features.
- Honda- Hope it actually delivers on its legacy and takes India seriously.

I feel that if a product is selling in numbers , it simply means that people feel that it is worth at the price it sells at be it and iPhone or an oppo.

A cheaper product would not just sell being cheap, it has to have value for the "cheaper price" it sells at.

There is a reason why people buy a Maruti or Hyundai vehicle when they can buy a Skoda or a VW at the same price. The prices of all cars are more or less in the same price bracket as per their competitors , what matters is how seriously do they consider the Indian customer and understand the pulse of the market.

I have owned a Skoda , Ford and Mitsubishi vehicle myself and I still have a Fiat at home. However, I have now understood that the enthusiasm of such cars lasts for few hundred kilometres , once the practical issues start hovering over your head, the apple of one's eye becomes an eye sour in no time.
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Old 4th March 2020, 14:22   #22
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

Only a handful of OEMs have truly grasped what a typical Indian car buyer wants. He evaluates the cost of ownership (Purchase+Insurance+Maintenance+Resale) & seeks a certain peace of mind when it comes to ASS.

The average car buyer is not an enthusiast. He wants efficient & effective transportation. Period. A lot of OEM's who are stuck in Jurassic Park have not come to terms with this fact. They came to India riding on their global brand legacies and fell flat here. Those who read the signals right like Hyundai / Kia are flourishing.

As for me & for anyone who seeks my counsel, I would keep away from Nissan / Renault, Skoda / VW, MG (still too new) & Jeep / Fiat. For now, even the Indian Mahindra / Tata duo looks dicey. I hope I am proven wrong though.
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Old 4th March 2020, 14:57   #23
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

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Originally Posted by RaghavEvoX View Post
Doesn't make sense at least in the current scenario. If this was the case , Nano wouldn't have bombed and Creta wouldn't have been selling like hot cakes all these years. I would prefer calling Indians 'Safe buyers' who like fuss-free ownership experience & long-term reliability.
I think tractor emulsion summed up the Indian attitude well
'Sirf dikta mehange hai'

We like things that are affordable but not associated with cheap. Nano flopped because it is cheap.

At least, this my opinion.
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Old 4th March 2020, 16:34   #24
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

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Originally Posted by Mafia View Post
I think tractor emulsion summed up the Indian attitude well
'Sirf dikta mehange hai'

We like things that are affordable but not associated with cheap. Nano flopped because it is cheap.

At least, this my opinion.

You are correct. Tata actually did an internal assessment and turns out the Nano had a branding problem. The car itself was alright but people didn't want to but it because of the cheap label.


You can read more - https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors...ry/221726.html
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Old 4th March 2020, 17:26   #25
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

I wouldn't stay away from the car of my liking even if it sells in lower numbers and manufacturer hasn't announced that they are going out of business. Honestly no manufacturer should leave India at this point. GM made a mistake which they will regret and perhaps admit a few years later. Nissan and Renault are global partners and I don't see them going out of business in India at all.
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Old 4th March 2020, 18:33   #26
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

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Originally Posted by laser2707 View Post
The average car buyer is not an enthusiast. He wants efficient & effective transportation. Period. A lot of OEM's who are stuck in Jurassic Park have not come to terms with this fact.
As for me & for anyone who seeks my counsel, I would keep away from Nissan / Renault, Skoda / VW, MG (still too new) & Jeep / Fiat. For now, even the Indian Mahindra / Tata duo looks dicey. I hope I am proven wrong though.
Average car buyer is then rightfully dished out tin cans from Maruti, Hyundai and others. Sorry mate, but the most important aspect of any automobile story is safety and I am afraid you want people to stay away from all the safer alternatives out there ( VW/JEEP/TATA/MAHINDRA/SKODA ). I am not even talking about performance here. I mean, till when, we will only want an effective and efficient transportation vehicle. When will we start asking for a well built, safe cars ?
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Old 4th March 2020, 18:34   #27
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

This is an interesting topic, although the only definite candidates I see are the sisters Nissan and Datsun. All of their offerings had dismal sales; their product portfolio and A.S.S is simply mediocre, especially when their French cousin is on a roll, disrupting the segments with innovative offerings and all. The Kicks bombed big time, and I don't expect the upcoming sub-4m SUV to fare any better. And what the hell are they doing with the Sunny and the Micra after all these years?? Datsun's GO may have improved, but it can't still quite wash off the "utilitarian" vibe it gave off the customers during its launch.
They're done.

Other than Nissan, I don't see manufacturers as a whole, seeking life-support. Not since Daewoo. You never see it coming, not even with GM, as it had competent products like Cruze and Beat when they exited.

Rather, the risk is with certain models and segments they're targeting, especially in lieu of the SUV fever. Ford, especially now with it's Mahindra JV, has made it clear that all its focus would be on the SUVs, big or small. The Figo may have bombed due to different reasons despite being a fantastic product, but Ford's different strategy means it simply may not have a successor. Even it may face the axe anytime soon. Spare availability should be considered if looking for one right now. The Freestyle may venture, however.

In case of Honda, it's the Jazz. The same sins of it's previous incarnation is going to punish it. Despite being a great product, the premium prices have restricted the sales, and there are no plans for a successor. If it faces the axe, once again, the spares are gonna be an issue. Atleast if you plan on keeping it for 7 or 8 years.

The Hexa with fancy Safari sub-branding, any flagship Hyundai product like the Tucson or Elantra (the Sonata being already dead),the CR-V.... basically all the sales duds that don't have an immediate future is a huge risk. And all those limited edition models that ARE actually limited edition models like the JTPs and the vRS (Not you, stupid Ciaz RS).

Whereas some models haven't been performing as well as they should, but some manufacturers just keep improving them as long as they like. The Polo with it's upcoming big BS6 changes like 1.0 TSI, torque converter etc. means that it's gonna stick around for the next couple of years. So no worries about that.

In general, most brands as such shouldn't be feared right now. Apart from Nissan, pretty much all of them, including the lethargic Toyota has SOME plan of how to do things. All of them have bread-and-butter models like the Honda City or the Toyota Innova Crysta/Fortuner that churns out healthy sales numbers to keep their shares afloat. GM didn't have any. Their best products were outdated. The Trailblazer was too late. And outdated too. The only manufacturer that's heading the worst case scenario is Nissan/Datsun.

It's certain segments to look out for. The SUV focus has taken its toll on all segments. The C2 segment is thriving with the City, Ciaz and Verna. The Yaris flopped, the Vento nearly is, and once upon a time Ford had the Fiesta too. It was a much bigger segment. Sure it's still selling, but slowly dying. Watch out for the slow selling ones like the Yaris. You never know what's gonna happen.

The D1 segment is still intersting, but not as much as the crossovers dominating the segment. After the Cruze exited, only the Octavia is an exciting option. Others are just chugging along. The D2 segment is pretty much dead, nothing but overpriced hybrid variants.
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Old 4th March 2020, 20:35   #28
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

I'd like to pitch with another important aspect that these 'risky' brands don't bring replacement models fast enough and are still selling outdated models, eg:

Ford - Ecosport
Nissan - Sunny and Micra
Renault - Duster
VW - Vento and Polo

All these cars used to sell decently well in their day but while Maruti and Hyundai brought in the next-gen models on time, these brands are selling previous-generation models compared to what is available globally.

Let's not forget that the Ecosport and Duster were benchmarks which started their respective segments! If they had brought in the newer-gen versions of these cars, they might still have been going strong!
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Old 4th March 2020, 23:25   #29
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

New to Team -BHP, but always been a car lover.

To me the most over rated brand and sub- standard products are from Honda. I own one, the current generation City.
It’s like a hollow car to drive. Power windows noise seems at-least 10 year old in a new car - very noisy.
Engine noise in cabin - there isn’t any sound insulation.
AC is the most horrible in any car I have experienced besides Hyundai Getz.

Honda thinks good looks and features package will help them survive - a wrong approach

Toyota has superior products and ASS better than any other brand in India.


Note from Support. Post fixed. Excessive dots removed. Please don't type...like...this...!

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Old 5th March 2020, 02:31   #30
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Default Re: Risky car manufacturers in India, considering their sales numbers

I agree. In my point of view this problem is only seen in India. Because we Indians are selfish, or in simple hindi word “kanjoos” to spend more for a better car. Everybody knows that Germans, and Italian brands are par better than Maruti. I need to emphasize that. Maruti.
Is anyone (Dieties of MSIL) even bothered that Maruti is not gonna send their cars for Global NCAP? How shameful is that? They’re degrading themselves.

Let me tell a real fact here: Toyota Corolla, Toyota RAV-4, Honda Accord, Civic, CR-V, VW Golf, Polo, Ford Escape, Ford F-series, Ford Fiesta, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Toyota Highlander.

Are the all time best selling cars in the WORLD.
Tell me one Suzuki car costing above 20lakhs. (Which is also successful)
I regret. Indian car market is getting worse year after year.
Chevy dead
Fiat dead
Mitsubishi dead
Ford struggling
Honda, Jeep, Skoda struggling
And many more.

Last edited by khan_sultan : 22nd April 2020 at 07:16. Reason: typo. Maruti
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