[Slick]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Delivered in more than a dozen cities and plenty more in the pipeline.

I was incorrect on the number of cities front, thanks for correcting .

But not sure how much of the city the metro actually covers in these cities. E.g. Mumbai metro (currently functional) covers a small route compared to the planned expansion.

This would be off topic so I am stopping here.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

In that case, which most of us Indians frankly are not culturally equipped to handle, the price could by Rs 20/litre one month, Rs 50/litre in another and Rs 100/litre in a third.

The expected range, with all the taxes, wouldn't be that big though, would it ? Also what is the point of deregulation if it was never going to be followed ?
And by this logic would the Government give me a subsidy if say the fuel prices cross 100$/barrel?


- Slick.

[lurker]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Most Govt's by nature make inefficient use of financial receipts and are always short of cash. This is as much with the Indian Govt as it is with say the U.S. Govt*. Each will do the best it can to pull receipts out of the economy be it rigid taxes, not passing on price drops in international commodities or indulging in legal but extortionist methods on tax vis-a-vis businesses.

We can have either of two systems where oil prices go - free floating where the price resets periodically ie each month or week reflecting the international price for crude oil. In that case, which most of us Indians frankly are not culturally equipped to handle, the price could by Rs 20/litre one month, Rs 50/litre in another and Rs 100/litre in a third. The Govt's in India from both sides of the political divide have chosen to keep prices stable when they vary a bit up or down, keep the money in Govt's pockets when they drop (remember every drop is temporary) and increase it when it sees a semi-permanent move up in prices. The current drop in price is driven by geo-politics and not be any fundamental shift in market forces, demand or technology break through. It would not be practical, in a country like India, to drop prices for 10 weeks to Rs 40/litre and then raise them back when prices re-stabilize at more commercially normal levels.

While I am no advocate for inefficiency in Govt spending it does not make sense for petroleum products to be reduced in what is an international price war of political egos.

*Germany, South Korea, Sweden, Netherlands are the few exceptions

Since you are defending the govt, then why pray announce *deregulated pricing* and claim all accolades for that and then do a slight of hand and announce 'no passing on any benefits of such deregulated prices' to end consumers.

Can the govt or govts be challenged in court for fraud. And if they are so challenged in courts, how many courts in the world can afford to censure their govt except as a playful sword waving kind of gesture.

What was needed was to create a pricing system which was stable and *consistent* throughout and not an ad hoc system which passes on the pennies and holds back the pounds showing up both the country and the govt in poor light. Such a phata abdul approach shows that the country lacks in basic fiscal discipline and then rot is deep that they have to rely on such sleight of hand fund infusion for day-to-day routine expenses.

This when even more broke countries in neighbourhood can pass on benefits of lower prices to their end consumers. Why is India saddled with highest fuel prices in the region. The region being cheek-by-jowl of mideast and transportation expense of petroleum products by sea is minimal as compared to european countries that have to squeeze in through suez and travel through meditteranean and ferry up the atlantic to reach their ports.

The ship is sinking.

[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Incorrect but I understand your argument. 1% control 58% of India's wealth, vis a vis the world average of 44%.


Inefficient governance is not the barometer for taxation. Governments that do not perform should be overthrown by the democratic process. Do not tax me as I dont like your policies does not work! Governments are held accountable at the ballot not by altering taxes!

Plus every single country has uncomfortable truths, Justin Trudeau lost his majority in the recent election due to corruption scandals among others and is surviving by forming a coalition!

Actually India's 1% super rich control 70% of it's wealth. That's a staggeringly high income disparity.

https://www.businesstoday.in/current...ry/268541.html

True, every country has it's own set of problems. But if we compare ourselves to developed countries, we are far behind and it's very discouraging. Considering that our country has such a huge potential.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

With the economy not doing well, I think people will try to save. I can delay the purchase of new furniture or mobile phone, but I can't delay going to office. The food I want will be slightly more expensive, but I can't skip it.

People who usually save will save no matter how the economy performs. But generally, if people have money in hand, they spend it. In times where govt is unable to create jobs and more and more people loosing their jobs from both public and private sector, any kind of relief for people is a welcome move.

Originally Posted by Stribog

I don't expect a Canadian national to understand the serious lack of infra in both urban and rural India, let along things like ports, airports and power sectors all of which need approx $ 1.5 tn in the next 5 years, but as an Indian residing in India, and who has 3 cars + 2 bikes, I will happily pay up both this price and even increased prices if the govt so desires it as I personally see it as helping the real average Indian. And I am govt / party agnostic here, I did this in 2013 and would do it tomorrow no matter who the PM is.

I don't think this govt is painting any picture of India as any paradise, and let us keep politics out of the forum please. On topic though, dropping fuel costs will have a disastrous effect on our deficit AND impact our infra building plans.

As I have asked another forum member, do you think India needs infra or no. Simple question, the answer to that should answer this topic.

Everything we do in this country revolves around politics, no one can deny this. All the policies they make, taxes they levy, what we study, where we work etc.

If our tax money was used 100% for infrastructure building only, I am sure 99% of team-bhpians will also gladly support the govt on any kind of tax levied on us.

But it's news like this that gets my Goat. Even Central govt has allocated funds for the statue.

https://www.businesstoday.in/current...ry/281162.html

Also not to forget, this govt has already used up 1.76 lakh crore rupees from RBI, still that was not enough to revive our economy.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...0.cms?from=mdr

What exactly was the benefit of demonetization ?
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/65639832.cms

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...9.cms?from=mdr

If we compare with Chinese market, they were building infrastructure at break neck speeds, I believe its because of their manufacturing and exporting sector which is very strong. But here ever since demonetization, both these sectors have struggled.

It seems this govt has no idea how to generate and properly manage it's funds. But one thing they know very well is tax us heavily for their whims and fancies. It applies to all govts in the past and present since no one is held accountable for wasting our money.

[Equus]

We have been blessed with good leadership across partylines from 1991. Lets give them a bit of credit - they might not have done the best they could, but many of them did good or atleast okay. We as a nation have grown more than most countries in the world! Another good 10 years and we should be way better than now - I am always bullish!
I am no economist and hardly know anything but you will agree if all countrymen pay taxes and increase the tax base (and bring in rich agriculturists also), we will flourish!

[romeomidhun]

No car owners can say that the buying of cars has to be stopped and so the fuels has to be priced exorbitantly - because, the passenger car penetration is only around 20% in India and the public transport system is not yet in an acceptable condition. The remaining 80% also have the right to "enjoy" the ownership of a car.

Originally Posted by Equus

We have been blessed with good leadership across partylines from 1991.

What about the leaders before that, who paved the way for the nation? Also, does this include the current crop of party leaders? I was thinking in the same lines of you till some 4-5 years back, but then lost all hopes seeing the "good things", "modernisation", and "demoni(ti)sation". Auto industry and poor peple are struggling a lot and will suffer even more. Compared to 6-7 years back, the central and state govts are making a lot of money selling fuels. Is there any significant change witnessed during these days other than some earful dialogues?

[Stribog]

Originally Posted by Slick

Absolutely don't agree with this line of thinking. The government is already earning a hell lot more from fuel and other cess than the last Government.
They are taxing us in excess of 130% as mentioned earlier in the thread.
Just because someone is earning enough to buy 15L car, he has to be quiet when the Government tries to get that extra from his pocket?

The Government needs to plan & manage it's finances better. Irrespective of which political party they belong to if a government starts increasing taxes and it pinches my pocket, I am going to complain.

It is but our economy has grown, the demands on the economy has grown. This is like arguing, "You made Rs 6,000 / month in your first job in 2002 (true story) and make Rs 400,000 / month today (made up number), but your expenses should remain capped at your 2002 income levels"

It absolutely does not work this way. Also however efficiently it manages the economy and finances, fact of the matter is, India's tax to GDP ratio is abysmal. We are at 16% while the rest of even the BRICS are average 25-30%. This includes direct and indirect taxes.

This govt has been pushing up the direct tax to GDP ratio slowly and till it reaches more sustainable levels (like in the Nordic states), fuel prices amongst other things should remain high to account for the shortfall.

Originally Posted by shortbread

He shouldn't be quiet, must run to the nearest showroom, make noise and demand for a small car with even smaller running costs. Albeit something safe.

I agree with all your thoughts, thank you for your arguments.

Originally Posted by Slick

This is not about getting additional tax benefits. It's about the audacity of the Government to change the tax structure frequently to suit itself. Especially when fuel has been "so called" deregulated.

I am working from home so my running is almost nil. That said some posts supporting the tax change amaze me. We seem to be celebrating taxes, above 130%.

How is this audacious? Let me repeat, all the govt is doing is improving its financial position and then ploughing it right back into infrastructure. India is in the midst of an unprecedented (both by Indian and global standards) infra boom, only few modern states can claim infra addition on this scale in the modren era.

Some numbers,

1) Indian Railways alone has seen on average Rs 130,000 crores in capex every year from 2014 on.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/polic.../55715.article

2020 saw it hit Rs 1.61 lakh crores.

This will go into funding various suburban railway projects (including the most needed one in Bangalore), dedicated freight corridors (which were stuck for 2.5 decades!), doubling passenger lines, introducing more semi HSR lines amongst other things.

Even accounting for delays, by 2030, the face of Indian Railways will be entirely changed.

Now should we forego all this investment because 2% of the pop should enjoy lower fuel prices to drive their pricey cars which is equal to 10 years income (a 10l car) for 50% of the pop and more than 5 years income for the remaining 48% (the other 2% being the ones who could possibly thing about affording such a car)

2) Roads see on average 70-75k crores in budget funding, 2020 was at Rs 83,000 crores.

All those lovely eways we take our long drives on? yeah, that needs money to build. We could always reduce prices and go back to 2 lane no median highways....I have driven on those and they are NOT fun.

Look up India's expressway network and you will see just how pathetic it is for a country of this size and scale.

3) Sanitation - Swachh Bharat has seen more than Rs 45,000 crores collectively thus far and now focus has switched to...

4) Water piping. Do you know 145 MILLION households don't have access to clean, piped water?

Let me repeat that 145 million households or roughly 800 million Indians do not have access to clean, piped water!

per capita availability of treated / clean water has dropped from 5,000 cu m in 1947 to some 1,200 cu m today! This is an absolute shame.

India needs Rs 3,50,000 crores in the next 5 years to give something as basic as piped water to our fellow Indians.

Let me ask you and anyone else who is upset with the fuel price rise, when was the last time you or your family actually struggled to get 2 buckets of water for a bath and basic cooking?

Let me once again repeat, 800 MN Indians do not have access to water! And we are upset that our tax money is going to fund something as basic as a piped water network?

I am not getting into things like power (Nuclear power will be doubled by 2027, construction is underway), river cleaning etc etc, all of which also need lakhs of crores.

Originally Posted by Slick

By this logic any tax increase has to be celebrated as the next step towards development. Why claim exemption in income tax as we are denying the country a chance to develop?

About the development, unfortunately that is not how it rolls. Increased taxes do not guarantee better infrastructure. That depends upon the calibre of the people in the hot seat. Our forum rules do not permit beyond this.

I am not sure how old you are, but if you grew up in the 80's and 90's, you would agree infrastructure has grown by leaps and bounds these past 3 decades and with the current unprecedented focus on infra, the coming decade will add more infra than the past 3 combined!

Originally Posted by stanjohn123

Actually India's 1% super rich control 70% of it's wealth. That's a staggeringly high income disparity.

https://www.businesstoday.in/current...ry/268541.html

But it's news like this that gets my Goat. Even Central govt has allocated funds for the statue.

Also not to forget, this govt has already used up 1.76 lakh crore rupees from RBI, still that was not enough to revive our economy.

If we compare with Chinese market, they were building infrastructure at break neck speeds, I believe its because of their manufacturing and exporting sector which is very strong. But here ever since demonetization, both these sectors have struggled.

It seems this govt has no idea how to generate and properly manage it's funds. But one thing they know very well is tax us heavily for their whims and fancies. It applies to all govts in the past and present since no one is held accountable for wasting our money.

Where do you think the statue construction money went? 95% of it was localised (with the balance 5% coming from China), the labourers were Indian, heck my own company handled parts of the transportation for this statue and we made decent money. It is not like the govt threw the money into the Arabian sea and the statue magically appeared.

Besides, this is Rs 3,000 crores over a 4 year period which translates to not even 0.0001% of the federal budget.

Why are you making a mountain out of a molehill?

Income reality is unfortunately how a capitalistic free market economy is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncome_equality

India is still not as bad as most countries in the world, but I don't see this changing, as long as the bottom keeps growing (as it is in India and China), I am happy with that.

[Slick]

It is but our economy has grown, the demands on the economy has grown. This is like arguing, "You made Rs 6,000 / month in your first job in 2002 (true story) and make Rs 400,000 / month today (made up number), but your expenses should remain capped at your 2002 income levels"

Demands of the economy have certainly grown but so has tax income for the Government. Almost 1.7 times from 2014. Not saying they should give me freebies.

We are at 16% while the rest of even the BRICS are average 25-30%. This includes direct and indirect taxes....

Again, The debate is not about reduction in taxes, it's about passing the benefit to the consumer as this is a deregulated system. Which is not happening.

How is this audacious? Let me repeat, all the govt is doing is improving its financial position and then ploughing it right back into infrastructure. India is in the midst of an unprecedented (both by Indian and global standards) infra boom, only few modern states can claim infra addition on this scale in the modren era.

It is audacious they have deregulated the fuel prices, only to go back get the benefit. This infra boom that we are discussing is also happening by current taxation.

1) Indian Railways alone has seen on average Rs 130,000 crores in capex every year from 2014 on.
...

Agreed on these points, all great data, Will the Government reduce fuel taxes if crude oil price goes north ? They will not, they will tax the hell out of us. They cannot have their cake and eat it too. Deregulation is one way here. That's my point. Fuel is already being taxed a hell lot.

I am not sure how old you are, but if you grew up in the 80's and 90's, you would agree infrastructure has grown by leaps and bounds these past 3 decades and with the current unprecedented focus on infra, the coming decade will add more infra than the past 3 combined!

80s/90s kid.
I wonder at what cost.

Let me repeat that 145 million households or roughly 800 million Indians do not have access to clean, piped water!
.....
Let me ask you and anyone else who is upset with the fuel price rise, when was the last time you or your family actually struggled to get 2 buckets of water for a bath and basic cooking?

Please don't go there I pay my taxes to the best of my abilities, I have also paid the road tax, I pay tolls for crappy roads knowing that the toll collected is humungous for that road (It has not changed for this Government or the past)

If the Government, whom you are passionately defending while insinuating that I am being too selfish, is so concerned about all this we won't be seeing a few cronies benefitting.
I won't go any further in this regard for our forum rules.

Let me once again repeat, 800 MN Indians do not have access to water! And we are upset that our tax money is going to fund something as basic as a piped water network?

Seriously?

If asking questions and complaining about why a promised tax structure, hiked a lot recently, is not being followed equals to being selfish and detrimental to the country (all this inspite of paying all the applicable sorts of cess' and taxes, direct or indirect) then yes, I am doing that.


I will stop here.


PS - I appreciate your knowledge and it would be great to talk to you in person someday , though I feel you are only factoring in our moral responsibility and not that of the politicians, trusting them blindly.


- Slick

[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by Stribog

Where do you think the statue construction money went? 95% of it was localised (with the balance 5% coming from China), the labourers were Indian, heck my own company handled parts of the transportation for this statue and we made decent money. It is not like the govt threw the money into the Arabian sea and the statue magically appeared.

Besides, this is Rs 3,000 crores over a 4 year period which translates to not even 0.0001% of the federal budget.

Why are you making a mountain out of a molehill?

Income reality is unfortunately how a capitalistic free market economy is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncome_equality

India is still not as bad as most countries in the world, but I don't see this changing, as long as the bottom keeps growing (as it is in India and China), I am happy with that.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to convey. What I am saying is that, the statue for 3000 crores was a waste of money and an unnecessary expenditure. Maybe few people like you benefited doing logistics for them but what is the revenue that they are generating out of it ?

Last time I checked, it was just 82 crores per year. At that rate it will take 36.5 year's just to recoup this investment. Was it really necessary ?

[mvadg]

I see that there are plenty of people defending the government. In my initial post I requested data on the government expenditure. We have people on this forum that work for the government and deal with them closely enough to know exactly where to get this supposedly public data. The fact that no one here has put up links or charts and tables showing how the government is spending our taxes and the results of such spending in factual terms is telling.

I too was a naive youngster who believed in paying my taxes and doing my bit for my country. Over the years, I have changed my views. I now believe that the government is home to a group of scammers who are busy feathering their own nest - this may be a bit extreme, I think.

I look forward to being proven wrong and having my faith in the government (and politicians) restored. So all those of you defending the excise hike and the government, please bring out the numbers and charts - I will gladly pay Rs. 100 per liter of petrol and defend the government from every soapbox.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by mvadg

I see that there are plenty of people defending the government....
...The fact that no one here has put up links or charts and tables showing how the government is spending our taxes and the results of such spending in factual terms is telling. ...
...
So all those of you defending the excise hike and the government, please bring out the numbers and charts - I will gladly pay Rs. 100 per liter of petrol and defend the government from every soapbox.

Words out of my mouth!

Originally Posted by racer_ash

Agreed that fuel is an essential commodity and all that stuff. But I simply don't agree to the fact that fuel prices should reduce below certain level. For God's sake, it is a highly polluting entity that is the cause of more than half the world's problems today. I would be even more happy if fuel is taxed a bit more and the cess collected goes to funding green energy sources.

I am amazed that fossil fuels are continuing to be sold today. ...
...
I support all the additional tax that fossil fuels are subject to. And I am sure that the 'poor' people whom we are supposedly supporting will be least affected by the fuel price hike. They have worse things in life to worry about. And please! I am sure no one in Team BHP is so poor that they cannot afford a 3 Re hike on something that ought to have been banned long ago.

Fossil fuels contribute far less to global warming than livestock growth. Are you complaining about that? Or do you support truckers getting paid less, and you paying more for goods, because most of the Indian economy runs on diesel. How about an underpaid, underbudgeted Indian Army or IAF? Because they are the largest consumers of fuel in India. For someone whose DP is a car, and owns or uses two vehicles, your argument strikes me as being disingenuous. Unless I am mistaken and your vehicles run on fuel cells.

Originally Posted by shortbread

A convinient fact is that the daily consumption has increased from 3,900 barrels a day in 2014 to 5000+ currently. All of which are imports, despite the 'unaffordable' taxes and duties! Makes one wonder if the prices are this unaffordable, who exactly is driving this increasing thirst for imported crude?

Shortbread, I assume by your location that you live in the UK. Living in Aberdeen gives you a unique insight into oil and gas markets, I daresay. Do you, by some chance, work in the industry? Anyway.

You'll notice that the UK, where you live (?), has great social security, good roads, law and order, and a high standard of living. Doubtless, the high taxes on cars, goods, fuel all support this. Just as doubtless, you will be surprised to know that our tax payments on these same goods, adjusted for PPP, are far higher in India. Do you think it makes sense for the few of us that do pay income tax, to shoulder a further burden, when we see next to no return? I mean, it is no one's case that civic amenities and socio-public infrastructure is nearly identical in the UK and India.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

While I am no advocate for inefficiency in Govt spending it does not make sense for petroleum products to be reduced in what is an international price war of political egos.

As usual, I must bow down to you. I cannot agree more with what you've said. (there used to be a bow down / hail smiley as well)

While I understand the government's justification to keep prices now and reap whatever they can, given how they're mostly incompetent at running the economy, I empathise with the frustration of the salaried class who actually buys vehicles with taxed income, only to be denuded further.

[racer_ash]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Fossil fuels contribute far less to global warming than livestock growth. Are you complaining about that? Or do you support truckers getting paid less, and you paying more for goods, because most of the Indian economy runs on diesel. How about an underpaid, underbudgeted Indian Army or IAF? Because they are the largest consumers of fuel in India. For someone whose DP is a car, and owns or uses two vehicles, your argument strikes me as being disingenuous. Unless I am mistaken and your vehicles run on fuel cells.

So are you saying its ok we continue polluting the hell out of the planet even though there could be other alternatives. And regarding your other point about livestock growth, do you have an alternative to that? If ao, please put forth so I can be enlightened.

How are truckers salaries coming into the picture. Oh. Are you saying that because of fuel price increase, they will be paid less? What is your point?

Again the army and the military would gladly switch to non polluting vehickes IF they are mainstream anyway.

In case you didnt notice my signature. All my vehicles are SOLD as of last year. I commute to office by bicycle. So thanks for your skewed judgement on my display picture.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by racer_ash

So are you saying its ok we continue polluting the hell out of the planet even though there could be other alternatives. And regarding your other point about livestock growth, do you have an alternative to that? If ao, please put forth so I can be enlightened.

I actually work in sustainability and the environmental field, so this is what I do for a living. As a result, my statements are based on fact more than opinion.

We are not 'polluting the hell' out of the planet by driving our commuter cars. Car pollution accounts for a fraction of the pollution emanating from building and construction related dust in both Mumbai and Delhi. This fact has been accepted by administrators and independently verified. Do you see any big protests being taken out against builders or all the infrastructure projects around you? Do you personally make it a point to check the green credentials of a builder from whom you buy or rent? No one does, unless mandated by some ESG norm. I personally have not bought a new car in my life, since I was aware from a while ago that the end-of-life cost of a car often outweighs any age-related pollution issues in terms of carbon emissions.

Originally Posted by racer_ash

How are truckers salaries coming into the picture. Oh. Are you saying that because of fuel price increase, they will be paid less? What is your point?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. In a logistics setup, the cost of the vehicle, the cost of fuel, the cost of wear and tear, and the cost of tolls are all fixed and non-negotiable. The only factor that can be changed is driver salary. This takes a hit the minute the overall revenue comes down, because past a point you cannot pass costs on to customers. That's over 60% of domestic freight and 85% of domestic travel.

Originally Posted by racer_ash

Again the army and the military would gladly switch to non polluting vehickes IF they are mainstream anyway.

Yes, if. But they are not. And there are no alternatives on the horizon either. This is wishful thinking. For example, an average afterburning turbofan engined aircraft consumes as much fuel in a single sortie as most cars do in a couple of years. You will be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks we should give up our fighter aircraft.

Originally Posted by racer_ash

In case you didnt notice my signature. All my vehicles are SOLD as of last year. I commute to office by bicycle. So thanks for your skewed judgement on my display picture.

In this case, I apologise and retract my statement. You clearly do have a fuel cell, yourself, and it is efficient and friendly to the earth.

Also, apologies in general for going off-piste. This had turned into a tangential discussion on whether fuel is good or bad, which was not my intention.

[moralfibre]

Mod note: All political posts deleted. Please stick to the topic. Thanks!

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by Equus

I am no economist and hardly know anything but you will agree if all countrymen pay taxes and increase the tax base (and bring in rich agriculturists also), we will flourish!

All the countrymen, women, children, infants the disabled, senior citizens and even so-called illegal immigrants pay taxes in one form or the other. Income tax makes for a paltry sum in the overall picture.

Fuel is the cash cow for the Government. And the only reason why it was not brought under the GST regime was because it would have to remain fixed (irrespective of percentage, say 100%) and there's no scope for manipulation (excise duty, cess, state tax, etc) for their kitty.

For those who forget, excise duty was around Rs. 2 in 2013 and around Rs. 23 today. Crude prices were $105 then and petrol was 71, while crude prices have never reached those highs in the last 6 years.

[kiku007]

Is it time to add a poll?

Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices - Your response?

1. OK
2. NOT OK