Team-BHP > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 30th March 2020, 14:18   #16
BHPian
 
MaanSingh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: London\Punjab
Posts: 89
Thanked: 119 Times
Default re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Has anyone experienced following with full load:
You engage hand brake on a very steep incline, but while releasing, it seems vehicle does not have enough power to move forward.
If you press the throttle harder, the wheels start spinning without any traction.

Traction control may be the ideal solution here, but without Traction control - will a CVT Petrol engine handle this better than the same MT Petrol engine?
MaanSingh is offline  
Old 30th March 2020, 14:52   #17
BHPian
 
lapis_lazuli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Ghaziabad
Posts: 583
Thanked: 1,266 Times
Default re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaanSingh View Post
Has anyone experienced following with full load:
You engage hand brake on a very steep incline, but while releasing, it seems vehicle does not have enough power to move forward.
If you press the throttle harder, the wheels start spinning without any traction.

Traction control may be the ideal solution here, but without Traction control - will a CVT Petrol engine handle this better than the same MT Petrol engine?
I think if you do not release hand brake first, it will help. Revv a bit with the hand brake engaged, so that the nose of the car lifts up. You will be able to see and feel it, then, maintaining the revvs, gradually release the hand brake. You may need to apply a bit more throttle. You should practice this just to get familiar with the torque & throttle response of your car vs hand brake. Maybe some mall parking ramp in your area or similar. Do not try for the first time on a trip with family!
lapis_lazuli is online now   (2) Thanks
Old 30th March 2020, 14:58   #18
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,028
Thanked: 1,988 Times
Default re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Torque converters are best for gradients, converter slip multiplies torque, while in other form's of clutches you just generate heat and noise.
If you are in hilly area take whatever engine option that comes with a TC.


Rahul
Rahul Rao is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 30th March 2020, 15:22   #19
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 175
Thanked: 1,115 Times
Default re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaanSingh View Post
If you press the throttle harder, the wheels start spinning without any traction.

Traction control may be the ideal solution here, but without Traction control - will a CVT Petrol engine handle this better than the same MT Petrol engine?
This behaviour is due to the fact that the car is a Front Wheel Drive and the weight distribution shifts to the rear wheels while driving on a forward slope. Traction control will not help much as it only cuts off power if it detects wheel spin. Best way to come out of this situation is,
1. Engage handbrake such that the bite is just enough to stop rolling back and then put the car in manually in 1st gear (lowest ratio in CVT) and gently apply the throttle till the car starts moving and slowly release the handbrake.

2. If above method doesnt work due to a very high slope and if you really are in a situation where you MUST climb up, then turn the car around and attempt the slope in reverse gear. This will surely work in FWD cars unless you are stuck in a really really steep incline.

With that said, you will not encounter such conditions unless you are off-roading or if the road has too much slush.

I drive a Toyota Yaris 1.5 CVT and have done a few hill drives to Horseley hills and Nandi hills with 5 pax and luggage. Nandi hills had bumper to bumper traffic while going uphill and I was very much scared about rolling back but I was surprised that the car never rolled back despite not having hill start assist! But the throttle response felt weird because there was no linear connection between the engine rpm and the speed! It was confusing at first to see rpm needle around 3000 but only 10kmph. Eventhough the speed kept climbing till 40, the rpm stayed rock solid at 3000rpm until I let the throttle go. This behaviour was very weird to me initially since my previous car had a manual tranny. But I read about this behaviour and soon got used to it. CVT always tries to provide the required amount of torque at the most optimum rpm and this is why rpm (and the corresponding engine note) seems odd to people used to driving other transmissions. In my 1 year of ownership, I have never used handbrake to negotiate even steep mall parking slopes from standstill. All I do is let go off the brakes and tap the A pedal and the car picks speed linearly.
So my understanding is that it shouldn't be a problem at all to use CVT in hills as long as the slope is in SUV territory or if the road is slippery with slush. In either case, you'll need either a RWD or 4WD.
nagr22 is offline   (9) Thanks
Old 30th March 2020, 16:16   #20
BHPian
 
MaanSingh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: London\Punjab
Posts: 89
Thanked: 119 Times
Default re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli View Post
I think if you do not release hand brake first, it will help. Revv a bit with the hand brake engaged, so that the nose of the car lifts up. You will be able to see and feel it, then, maintaining the revvs, gradually release the hand brake. You may need to apply a bit more throttle. You should practice this just to get familiar with the torque & throttle response of your car vs hand brake. Maybe some mall parking ramp in your area or similar. Do not try for the first time on a trip with family!
Yeah, I have been driving for past 20 years and use this method on inclines. They also made me practice this thoroughly while passing my driving test in London, UK
It's a fine balance thingy, which did not work on an extremely steep Tara Devi Hill near Shimla. It's hard to explain I guess, you can only experience it on a very very steep incline - slope of malls are nothing as compared to it.

Thanks

Last edited by MaanSingh : 30th March 2020 at 16:25. Reason: UK is United Kingrom here, not Uttara-Khand
MaanSingh is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 30th March 2020, 16:22   #21
BHPian
 
MaanSingh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: London\Punjab
Posts: 89
Thanked: 119 Times
Default re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nagr22 View Post

2. If above method doesnt work due to a very high slope and if you really are in a situation where you MUST climb up, then turn the car around and attempt the slope in reverse gear. This will surely work in FWD cars unless you are stuck in a really really steep incline.

I had to do something similar, reverse the car a little bit, and then start from a place where incline was little bit lesser (incline was still more than a shopping mall incline)
MaanSingh is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 30th March 2020, 17:21   #22
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: CA/bangalore
Posts: 267
Thanked: 71 Times
Default re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaanSingh View Post
I had to do something similar, reverse the car a little bit, and then start from a place where incline was little bit lesser (incline was still more than a shopping mall incline)
Having done Spiti Valley in a Brezza(no traction control + FWD + good GC) All I can say is that it's crucial to carry momentum while going over steep/slippery slopes. You will not be able to stop in middle & take off in 1st gear unless you have a 4x4 with low range.

O.T: Let's not bring nandi hills into the pic as it has an awesome paved + wide road. Even auto rickshaws do it easily(RWD helps?)

The best combo for hills without proper roads would be (Good G.C + RWD) learnt this after seeing Innovas & Sumos fly past!
Engine power output doesn't come anywhere into the equation!
It's all about traction.
raihan is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 30th March 2020, 18:09   #23
BHPian
 
MaanSingh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: London\Punjab
Posts: 89
Thanked: 119 Times
Default re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Yeah, exactly - Traction + Low Rev Torque


Lost momentum as I had to follow a sharp U-type uphill turn - and then emergency stop due to traffic from other side
MaanSingh is offline  
Old 30th March 2020, 23:38   #24
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 118
Thanked: 147 Times
Default re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaanSingh View Post
Hiren, is your Corolla CVT Diesel or Petrol ?
That would make a lot of difference.
It should a petrol. Toyota never released an automatic diesel in India.
vikred is offline  
Old 31st March 2020, 01:30   #25
Team-BHP Support
 
SmartCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 5,260
Thanked: 29,072 Times
Default re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Frankly, I've had no issues with CVT on hilly roads - sometimes with 4 adults + 2 kids + luggage in boot & roof. I just shift to 'S' mode and modulate the throttle. Before the transmission gives you trouble on hilly roads, it is likely that the front tyres will give up first.

Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?-dsc03475.jpg

Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?-img_20191005_131229.jpg
SmartCat is online now   (10) Thanks
Old 31st March 2020, 11:47   #26
Senior - BHPian
 
abhishek46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,326
Thanked: 2,956 Times
Default Re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaanSingh View Post
I am not too concerned about high revs or it's noise on uphills. Little bit of under-performance or low speeds do not bother me either as weekend trips will be for recreational purpose only. Main concern is it should not stall or roll-back on hills as that will be a saftey concern.
That's never going to happen.
Unless, you are planning stopping and then starting on extremely steep uphill sections regularly. In stop-start situation on very steep gradients, the CVT will be hopeless.
On anything which is less extreme, it will be a breeze.
abhishek46 is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 1st April 2020, 01:15   #27
BHPian
 
amit_purohit20's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: mumbai
Posts: 626
Thanked: 705 Times
Default Re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

I am surprised that feedback is given by guys who rarely drive in hills. Some are even comparing parking lot slopes in malls etc.
No offence meant to anyone but please understand those who live in hills and drive through the hilly terrain on a daily basis have a higher probability of giving an accurate feedback.
I had driven through most of the Maharashtra ghats and was confident about tackling inclines. But the first incline of the Ghats to Ooty made me realise driving in hilly terrain is quite different than tackling some regular slopes.

I would prefer a manual transmission than CVT for ghats. Trust me if you struggled with an accent you would also struggle with a CVT.
Having a hill hold assist function would be a boon in the hilly regions.
DCT is better than CVT because of positive drive but the technology is yet to be matured.
Torque converter equipped automatic cars would do better than other automatics but the feedback should come from a person who drives in Himalayan terrain on a daily basis.

Till then manual rear wheel drive vehicle is the best bet!
amit_purohit20 is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 1st April 2020, 09:47   #28
BHPian
 
VKumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Dehradun
Posts: 855
Thanked: 6,676 Times
Default Re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brishti View Post
drinks a lot when going up a mountain at a slow-fast pace, which has to be done because of the turns.
Completely agreeable, I too have noticed this in Honda City at leas, in fact for a few CVT cars I have driven - I find their FE quite poor in the city and hilliy terrain, on the highways they shine though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaanSingh View Post
Traction control may be the ideal solution here, but without Traction control - will a CVT Petrol engine handle this better than the same MT Petrol engine?
A CVT with light throttle input takes care of that. I frequently do the devi circuit of Himanchal (Mainly Jwala Ji), and always plan my night stay in McLoedganj (After covering Chamunda); now McLoedganj has this very notorious road called 'Khada Danda', which is a one way route for the vehicles coming downwards.

In the last visit, I was driving the City only to McLoedganj, and we had to drive uphill on the khada danda route, because the main road was closed. The surface was wet, because snowfall happened just 2 days back. We have driven throughout that route (wet concrete route it is, very narrow and very steep) uphill, not even once the City gave any issue like rolling back, wheel spin (the car is running on 195 Section MRF Perfinza) etc. It all depends on the way you modulate the throttle is what I would say. And yes, that route is dreadful enough that even the hotel guy was also telling us that even the local Jeep/Bolero drivers avoid that route like a plague and hit is only when its unavoidable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
Torque converters are best for gradients, converter slip multiplies torque, while in other form's of clutches you just generate heat and noise.
If you are in hilly area take whatever engine option that comes with a TC.
100% right, nothing beats a torque converter when it comes to hills or uphill drives, no matter the car is empty, fully loaded or even overloaded. Torque converter equipped car + TCS, is more than enough to take any kind of slopes.

Hence in my first post I said that if possible, get Ecosport titanium+ Auto

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaanSingh View Post
It's a fine balance thingy, which did not work on an extremely steep Tara Devi Hill near Shimla. It's hard to explain I guess, you can only experience it on a very very steep incline - slope of malls are nothing as compared to it.
CVT can handle Tara devi slope with an aplomb, won't cause any troubles at all in fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaanSingh View Post
Yeah, exactly - Traction + Low Rev Torque
Then go with a TC equipped car dear sir, get Seltos diesel AT if you want Seltos only, and if you want to avoid diesel but want TC, get Ecosport AT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartCat View Post
Frankly, I've had no issues with CVT on hilly roads - sometimes with 4 adults + 2 kids + luggage in boot & roof.
I was awaiting your response, now a BR-V is very much dynamically in line with a Seltos, and carrying more passengers + luggage not causing a problem in BR-V means we can expect Seltos to behave similarly.

OT: I have personally experienced though, that Honda has done the best work when it comes to mating petrol motors with CVT gearbox. Although the 7 step CVT of Toyota is also good, but the responsiveness and power delivery of Honda CVTs is simply the best IMO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
drives in Himalayan terrain on a daily basis.

Till then manual rear wheel drive vehicle is the best bet!
Have been doing since years, I find the Scorpio manual to be best in hills (Bolero 2.5 etc had good low end, but once on the move - the Scorpio with its short ratios has always been very good).

Back to the point, the modern CVTs are all good and are reasonable in hills. The only issue with all automatics in the hills is the fuel economy, else they easily handle the terrain.

Last edited by VKumar : 1st April 2020 at 10:13.
VKumar is online now   (7) Thanks
Old 1st April 2020, 15:53   #29
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Vizag
Posts: 2,445
Thanked: 2,887 Times
Default Re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
I am surprised that feedback is given by guys who rarely drive in hills.

I would prefer a manual transmission than CVT for ghats. Trust me if you struggled with an accent you would also struggle with a CVT.

DCT is better than CVT because of positive drive but the technology is yet to be matured.
Torque converter equipped automatic cars would do better than other!
And, I am surprised that you have completely written off CVTs. Ref in block, can I conclude that you have driven CVTs uphill and found them unsatisfactory? Because I have driven Honda City CVT and Outlander CVT uphill and I have found them better than their manual variants. Ditto with A-Star AT and Scorpio AT, both torque converters. In MT, if you lose steam when you change gear. Clutch in, shift, clutch out takes some precious time off and car loses steam. Of course, Torque Converter is king of slopes. Not for nothing SUVs worldwide are coming with TCs. It is actually DSGs and AMTs which would be less suitable on hills because of initial pause and jerkiness through first 2 gears.

You are surprised that feedback is given by guys who rarely drive in hills? How do you conclude that? Do you know everyone who commented here personally and know this for a fact that they don't drive in hills? Every state has hills and everyone goes on vacation in hills once in a while.
pgsagar is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 1st April 2020, 16:44   #30
BHPian
 
MaanSingh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: London\Punjab
Posts: 89
Thanked: 119 Times
Default Re: Is a Petrol CVT suitable for driving on steep hills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Because I have driven Honda City CVT and Outlander CVT uphill and I have found them better than their manual variants.
Thanks, that's what I thought should be the case - as CVTs, in theory should drive in a more optimised RPM+Torque state of tune as compared to the same engine with manual gearbox.

Also +1 for not losing precious time\momentum when clutch is presses\depressed and gears shifted.

Not too worried about fuel efficiency, as these will be occasional trips in my case.
MaanSingh is offline  
Reply

Most Viewed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright 2000 - 2021, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks