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Old 27th June 2020, 07:41   #181
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by rahul4321 View Post
As someone on this page commented - "When crude was in $20's and $30's since years and higher taxes were being charged, where is that money gone?", that question needs to be posed to not only this Government but to the representatives of all Governments over the past 50 years. Nobody has bothered to save for a rainy day;
Never before 2014 has the excise duty on fuel been equal to or more than the basic cost of fuel. Crude has seen 20 - 30 USD per barrel and even lower only after 2014 in recent history. I hope you will understand that you cannot compare with the prices in 1950's or 1960's because cost of living was totally different then. Hence you cannot blame the governments of the last 50 years simply because they did not loot you then, as taxes were reasonable and only a miniscule percentage of the cost of basic fuel.

The constant juggling of excise duty in only one direction started shortly after May 2014 when price of crude oil started to go down. There has been a massive hike in excise duty post 2014. Hence only the current dispensation should be made answerable as to what has been done with all that extra money(32.98 - 9.26 as of today) that has been collected post 2014. ~ 22 bucks of extra moolah per litre is no chump change by any stretch of imagination.

Last edited by longhorn : 27th June 2020 at 08:08.
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Old 27th June 2020, 10:33   #182
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by nandrive View Post
Since many private constructions and related activities are halted, it's good government is planning to spend on statues and or roads. It's always better to pay someone for the work rather than handing over free money.
This really takes the discussion to the next level. What next?

Do you really think, the only option left with the govt. to improve spending ( as you call it ) is building statues? How about fixing the potholed roads, cleaning up the lakes, fixing street and traffic lights? Dont they involve labor and improve spending?
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Old 27th June 2020, 10:40   #183
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

Some serious discussion is happening here, while we are at it, the fuel prices were hiked again by 25 Paisa and 21 Paisa for petrol and diesel respectively for 21st day in a row.

Petrol and diesel will now cost Rs 80.38/liter and Rs 80.40/liter respectively in the national capital.

Whatever be the reason for price hikes, GoI should at least come out and say something about it instead of leaving it to the assumptions of public.

PS: Price hikes aside, not answering about it is not fair, they should give reasons for hike and also should substantiate the reasons, otherwise it is rude of them.

Last edited by wheelguy : 27th June 2020 at 10:46. Reason: Added PS.
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Old 27th June 2020, 10:54   #184
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
This really takes the discussion to the next level. What next?

Do you really think, the only option left with the govt. to improve spending ( as you call it ) is building statues? How about fixing the potholed roads, cleaning up the lakes, fixing street and traffic lights? Dont they involve labor and improve spending?
This is one among the different construction works. Building statues too employ people and in long run create tourism related jobs, and more ever have cultural significance for the local community. You may like it or not that's your opinion. Your priorities may not be same as others, that's how democracies work.
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Old 27th June 2020, 10:57   #185
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

My Theory : GOI would continue increasing petrol and diesel prices until almost all transport is off the road and lock down is more effective.

An experimental move and i would put my money for first positive result at 90 Rs/ L.

P.S : The mark is set same for both petrol and diesel.

Last edited by srini1785 : 27th June 2020 at 10:58.
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Old 27th June 2020, 11:13   #186
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by srini1785 View Post
My Theory : GOI would continue increasing petrol and diesel prices until almost all transport is off the road and lock down is more effective.
So, our life has become a meme.

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Old 27th June 2020, 11:36   #187
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by nandrive View Post
High margin is always always better than high volume, as high volume increases import. I was fed-up of seeing many people enjoying more facilities without having to pay any income tax. I guess around 2016 time government did give the benifit of lower crude, but what happened was that, states increased taxes and never saw any private players (bus or taxi) passing the same benefits to customers.
You are wrong at least for Gujarat. The VAT rate has fallen from 24% to around 20%. .
Please avoid making incorrect statements based on hearsay/whatsapp information.

Also, if high prices are to reduce imports, please impose them on the tiles, building materials, steel, clothing, meat products, paint, shoes etc. which can be made in India instead of crippling common people. For you a Taxi driver might be an exploitative person, but he or she earns less than 25k a month after driving for over 15 hours a day in metro city traffic. By the way, you pay less for fuel in Australia, despite enjoying all the "facilities".

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Originally Posted by nandrive View Post
Since many private constructions and related activities are halted, it's good government is planning to spend on statues and or roads. It's always better to pay someone for the work rather than handing over free money.
That's what NREGA was for. They built roads, checkdams, school buildings, toilets etc. Building statues when half the schools in the country don't have running water or toilets for women is nothing short of a crime. This is not a political opinion- it is an assessment of how morally bankrupt we are when we support statue buildings rather than schools and hospitals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srini1785 View Post
My Theory : GOI would continue increasing petrol and diesel prices until almost all transport is off the road and lock down is more effective.

An experimental move and i would put my money for first positive result at 90 Rs/ L.

P.S : The mark is set same for both petrol and diesel.
Good to know another masterstroke is in the offing.

Edit: Nandrive asked when the VAT was reduced- cursory reading of the article would give all the answers. Again, you are wrong about the tax rates. A person earning $100,000 (mid-career professionals usually earn more) pays $25k tax. In India an equivalent salary will be close to 18 lakh, and the tax rate is 30%.

Last edited by Nissan1180 : 27th June 2020 at 12:03.
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Old 27th June 2020, 11:49   #188
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Originally Posted by Nissan1180 View Post
You are wrong at least for Gujarat. The VAT rate has fallen from 24% to around 20%. .
Please avoid making incorrect statements based on hearsay/whatsapp information.

Also, if high prices are to reduce imports, please impose them on the tiles, building materials, steel, clothing, meat products, paint, shoes etc. which can be made in India instead of crippling common people. For you a Taxi driver might be an exploitative person, but he or she earns less than 25k a month after driving for over 15 hours a day in metro city traffic. By the way, you pay less for fuel in Australia, despite enjoying all the "facilities".



That's what NREGA was for. They built roads, checkdams, school buildings, toilets etc. Building statues when half the schools in the country don't have running water or toilets for women is nothing short of a crime. This is not a political opinion- it is an assessment of how morally bankrupt we are when we support statue buildings rather than schools and hospitals.



Good to know another masterstroke is in the offing.
Ok if you want make it personal thats fine. Could you please let me know when vat in Gujarat was reduced? I was talking about 2016 time frame. Read correctly your link itself says that vat was increased during January 2016. This is what happens if you don't read or understand correctly and come with ideological agenda to target people with different point of view.

And me enjoying less fuel cost here in Australia, I pay a far higher income tax, why don't you talk about it, anyway that's my personal choice, I don't have to be answerable to anyone. For as big country as india it's not even theoretically possible to have 100% of everything like pot hole free roads, schools with all amenities, before moving onto something else. Everything should run in parallel. There is no need of virtue signalling. In a democracy it's perfectly fine to have different opinions.

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Originally Posted by Nissan1180 View Post
Edit: Nandrive asked when the VAT was reduced- cursory reading of the article would give all the answers. Again, you are wrong about the tax rates. A person earning $100,000 (mid-career professionals usually earn more) pays $25k tax. In India an equivalent salary will be close to 18 lakh, and the tax rate is 30%.
This thread is not for discussing about Australian tax slabs. Still for your benefit, a person in India with 18 lakhs salary pays around 20%. And in Australia they have a different tax slabs for residents and non-residents.

Last edited by Aditya : 27th June 2020 at 20:37. Reason: Back to back posts merged. Personal attacks on fellow BHPians are strictly prohibited.
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Old 27th June 2020, 12:40   #189
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

Time to change the thread title to 21 days in a row. Mods please do the needful.

As someone who is driving 90 kms a day this is seriously pinching the wallet. But, who cares about the common man or let's say middle class in this country. Honestly, it's good to see the debate on this thread but we all know it's pointless. Govt. will always do what's best for their own interest, not ours.
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Old 27th June 2020, 12:50   #190
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by nandrive View Post
This thread is not for discussing about Australian tax slabs. Still for your benefit, a person in India with 18 lakhs salary pays around 20%. And in Australia they have a different tax slabs for residents and non-residents.
Request to delete this post, and my previous posts, if irrelevant.
We are talking about tax slabs. Include deductions and anywhere in the world your taxes can be optimized- and this applies to companies too. The general tax slab is based on income. Deductions come later. Based on the tax slabs, an income of AUD 100,000 is taxed less in Australia than a PPP equivalent income of Rs. 18 or 20 lakhs in India. Thanks.

Moving on, fuel prices continued to increase today. .

This website shows the fuel prices globally. It is interesting to see that except a few unstable countries in Africa and Latin America, most places with a high fuel price are developed nations. No developing country with the income/demographics similar to India has a higher price.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 27th June 2020 at 14:14. Reason: Quoted post edited. Thanks.
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Old 27th June 2020, 13:30   #191
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by rahul4321 View Post
I have nowhere mentioned that the PM, FM, DM, Petroleum Ministry or any other authority has given the reason. The reason has already been captured in the previous posts.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rahul4321 View Post
As someone on this page commented - "When crude was in $20's and $30's since years and higher taxes were being charged, where is that money gone?", that question needs to be posed to not only this Government but to the representatives of all Governments over the past 50 years. Nobody has bothered to save for a rainy day; in addition to that - scams, corruption, undesirable expenditures, absolutely ridiculous spending by MP's (for example booking train tickets out of the Public Funds but not cancelling the tickets when they did not undertake those journeys), so much more - dare I go on but then the Moderators will not be happy by the turn in the direction of discussion.

I am also not saying the current Government is doing everything correctly and should not be blamed of all of these aspects I have just mentioned. All I am saying is that - the current Government got handed down a Balance Sheet which did not have a large enough Reserve Fund because none of the previous Governments had bothered to maintain one OR had used up all the money of the Reserve funds. Now when the current Government needs to increase taxes on fuel so as to balance their net revenue against the net public expenditure (including defence), how can we hold only the current Government to blame when similar acts of propriety have not been followed by the past Governments. And if they have no Reserve Funds, where else do they now generate the income from which they need to offset the fixed public expenditure per month?
That someone would be me. I did not want to answer your post at all as it has no facts and figures and also because you never answered about Centra Vista, LCD Screens worth 170 crores, Boeing Planes, Statue in Karnataka, Going to Victory Day Parade etc which is a waste extravaganza during the pandemic but still let me answer some other parts with just plain numbers. Thank you @tbppjpr for your post on the fuel price thread.

Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?-fuelpricesnip1.jpg

Name:  Fuelpricesnip2.JPG
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Source--> https://www.mycarhelpline.com/index....=417&Itemid=10

What does this show us? Neither is the exchange rate the reason for higher fuel prices, neither is crude responsible for it. This data is only till 22nd June, if more numbers are added till 27th, its an even bigger loot.

Secondly these numbers also tell us that I should not be asking any questions to Adam and Eve and only to the current government who have been in power since 6 years as the amount of taxes has risen 3 to 4 times in case of petrol and more than 10 times in case diesel from 2014. Where is the money from all the taxes from 2014 till now gone that you need alms from a public who has lost jobs, income and lives?

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Originally Posted by rahul4321 View Post
Will we be happy if the Street Lights had to shut down? Or the Governmental Buses which currently do not operate only on the routes of profitability but on all essential routes shut down the routes where there is minimum traffic and no profitability. Would the general public not be inconvenienced if the Street lights had to be shut down? Would the general public not be inconvenienced if the Governmental Bus to their village shut down because it did not have enough passengers and that route was unprofitable to operate? The Government Hospital in my area gave me a tetanus shot for a measly 20 rupees but when my friend visited a private hospital for the same shot- he was charged 240 Rupees including the vial, syringe etc. Where do these funds for these Streetlights, Government Buses and Government Hospitals come from? - the same taxes (including the taxes on fuel) you and me pay. There are a lot of other examples I can take but these are enough to give you a general idea of my position.
Oho, before it was China and enemies who might take over India and now street lights, hilarious. Let me indulge this thought just for fun, if the situation was dire why would you fly to Russia to attend an event? Why would you put 170 crore worth of LED's for election Prachar? Why would you continue with the Centra Vista Project? Why would you buy planes for PM's travel? Why would not say Bullet Train is a done and dusted project? Logical question, answer if you can.

Government hospital took 20 rupees because they hardly wanted to make any profit on it, its a government hospital, the private added its profit to it, whats your point? They come from the taxes we pay and don't even get to the point which says only 3 percent pay taxes etc and hence the government needs to have dire measures. Below is my entire post which debunks that myth to no end.

--> https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post4776379 (Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahul4321 View Post
Oh, Switch on the TV today and see what the headlines are. Fantastic example of absolute murder of Propriety of Public Funds!
So it took them a pandemic, 6 years and no other diversions left in the kitty to find this out? Indian hoon, Shuturmurg nahi ( I am an Indian, Not an Ostrich )

Mods: Nothing in my post is about politics, just adding 1+1 on the spending's with plane facts and figures but if you still feel something or everything needs a delete, please do so. I will be sad for sometime that I spent a lot of time typing it, but hey, its fine.
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Old 27th June 2020, 13:30   #192
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

I'm the guy who fitted a CNG in my Santro more than 10 years ago due to rising petrol prices. The current government instilled hope in me when I saw their dramatic protests while they were in opposition. One of the reasons why I voted for the current ruling Government was because of their ability to highlight issues and present them in a smart manner.

The protests for even hikes of Rs. 2 were a sight to behold. Where have these leaders who used to fight for causes gone?

The same applies to some celebrities. They raised their voices during the previous regime for paltry hikes. Where are they now?

The current opposition is too weak and are not able to protest in the right manner. 21 days and no signs of serious protests from them - what exactly are they up to?

Lots of questions but no answers. Whatever be the case, I'm hopeful the government brings a solution to the daily hikes soon.

Last edited by Aditya : 27th June 2020 at 20:40. Reason: Deleting names
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Old 27th June 2020, 17:06   #193
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

It is really painful for the common man to cope up with the extreme rise in fuel prices. I don't want to go into complexities of economics but it is the common or poor man in the streets and villages who will ultimately be burdened, in whose name these so called taxes has been increased.

Just to give you an example while refueling at a fuel station yesterday I saw a middle level farmer filling a few drums with diesel in his tractor trolley and the bill came out to more than 50 thousand. This is needed for paddy plantation and he told that he had to take a loan from arhtiya ( person whom he seeks his crop) . So you could well imagine how poor farmers and labrourers have to pay through there noses.

Rest of others who know the complex economic system will somehow manage to get even by twisting the system as they know the loopholes. It is only the farmers ,labrourers, auto, truck , taxi people who are feeling this pain. The salaried class is effected in two ways as they are paying there taxes and are also looted by such extreme taxation on fuel .My humble request to all the esteemed and learned members please don't try to defend which is not just by using your learning and intellect sitting in your cosy living rooms.

Last edited by Sandeep500 : 27th June 2020 at 17:07.
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Old 27th June 2020, 17:44   #194
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

I belong to a farming background and from my calculations, this price hike of deisel will result in a approx 10% rise in the production cost of food grains accounting in all factors.
The tractor hiring rates have shot up by 20% in my own village and this impacts the small/marginal farmers the most.
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Old 27th June 2020, 17:59   #195
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Let me understand this - are you saying the higher taxation is justified because of the almost-nil collections over the last 3 months, and the continued low revenues? If that is the case, there's nothing wrong if companies/industries which had to shut down or struggled to pay even salaries during the last 3 months' period due to no or low sales, increase their products' selling prices substantially, right? And hospitals - those which were not part of the Covid-19 treatment and had to sent some of their staff home - should be collecting double or triple their fees now, I guess. Similarly other sectors too - service, hospitality, all of them.

My limited knowledge of economics tells me that's a strong prescription for high flying inflation, and we will all be ...!

Friend, if the government wants to mop up additional monies, shouldn't they REDUCE the taxes so that consumption goes up and they make up the shortfall over a period of time? Live example from the liquor industry (which I am part of) - in an effort to collect more revenues after seeing the rush when liquor outlets opened last month, most governments increased the duties substantially. What did that do? Sales came tumbling down and they are not even getting a fraction of their revenues now since people are buying cheaper brands and in smaller quantities. Obviously, this has impacted the distribution chain as well and many of the retailers are struggling to pay their rent.

In my view, just as in the case of the liquor industry where the spike in taxes could have been to control people's spending on liquor, the ONLY possible explanation for this continued spike in fuel prices is an attempt by the government to tell us: "hey, the lockdown may be over, but we prefer you to stay at home!"

PS: Announced today - Karnataka Govt will begin work tomorrow on the 108-feet tall Kempegowda statue near the international airport, spending 78 Cr. and it will be ready by 27th Jun 2021. Did someone say pandemic; or shortage of funds? I don't even have enough fuel to make the 100km (to-and-fro) journey to attend the Bhoomi Puja, even if I wanted to!

PPS: Not trying to make a political statement here, but I just hope we all can look at things objectively.
I tend to agree with what you've written friend. And while at it, I thought I'd add my 2 cents. Long post alert, but I assure you its not a bhakt post. Read thru the last para too, where I suggest what I feel ought to be the real solution instead of hiking fuel prices crazily like they're doing.

I don’t support such hikes in fuel prices. But to those who again and again ask, “What the hell does the govt do with our taxes, our cities are as shitty as ever! So clearly our taxes are anway wasted!”, there I completely disagree. I am an infra nerd and follow infrastructure closely, been doing that for over 3 decades, and I can say this: The present central govt is doing a stupendous job on the transportation infrastructure front. I give them full marks for transportation infra development, but failing marks on the economic front.

Analytics post-DeMo, Smart cities, SwachchaBharat, all count as big failures. Worse, they gave a huge reduction in corporate tax, where instead I felt they ought to have split that up between a moderate reduction in corporate tax and a moderate reduction in personal income tax. Thus, in my opinion, this govt is a big 0 on the economic front. It had already created a disaster before the Covid situation. Their contempt for *Harvard* etc kind of competence and relying on possibly *quacky* advisors, is showing its effects since 2014. I’ll admit to that.

But to say that our tax monies isn’t used fruitfully, well, nothing could be further from the truth. For those who don’t believe, please take the time and look at the several *latest* pages of *every* thread in the following 2 SSC links:

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/forum...-bridges.1253/

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/forum...ortation.1251/


I'd rather see our tax moneys spent in such a fruitful manner even if 25% of it is gone away in corruption, rather than see 100% of it gone away in corruption and see no works happening.

Go on, click on those links I tell you, you'll find a link for each project, many of them actively ongoing, and almost all of them either central govt projects or state govt projects initiated by state govts at a time when they were aligned with the present central govt (DFC, Mumbai-Delhi Expwy, MPE bypass, Mumbai Nagpur Expwy, track doubling of a zillion stretches (eg. Pune-Blore stretch, etc), rly electrification, etc; there are several more). These above threads are complete with pics and videos by generic infra nerds who have no passion but just the thrill of seeing something getting built in their country. You can see for yourself the amount of infra devp that's done by the govt after 2014 out in the hinterland away from cities (cities are a mess, but that's bcoz of rotten municipal corporations, can’t pin that on the central govt).

Sure, many of such works get tolled and you may wonder, why are they tolled if our taxes are used to build these. Well, I feel its too much to expect that level of quantum jump in good governance, for such huge projects! Hopefully in time, we'll get to a point when they're toll-free. Tolling happens even in the developed world.

Some forumers here keep saying "I don't believe this is the first govt to do so much work, I'm sure prior govts would've done the same". Well, pls don’t debate with phrases like *I can't believe, I'm sure, etc*. Show me pics and videos on neutral, non-political, non-govt websites, then talk! Furthermore, if you do a stats count on the above websites, you’ll realize the falsity of that claim.

There are people like Ramachandra Guha who recently wrote an article criticizing everything about the present central govt. The problem with people like Ramachandra Guha and many others is that most people (including him) *fly* when they go long distance from one city to another; and thereby miss spotting the number of infra works in process out in the countryside. Nor do they care to read up on such stuff, it's likely orthogonal to their area of interest. It's only when you go by *road*, that you can see what's happening in the hinterlands of our country. Or if you go by *train* and keep peering out the windows and observing (track doubling, electrification, etc works) instead of sleeping it out.

And mind you, the SSC websites I cited are *not* digital marketing by BJP trolls. It's a worldwide site, not limited to India. And anyone can become a member, usually it's filled with infra nerds. TBHP’ians with contrarian views too can become a member and post contrarian views if you so wished!

Some forumers complain about metro rail works, as to why metro rail works are taking so long. My answer: When a *single* apt complex construction within a 10 acre land takes 5+ years to complete, how then can you expect a 150 km long metro project to get completed faster, when it involves utility shifting, land acquisition, environment issues, litigation by multiple parties, etc every now and then?

As everyone here knows, the problem for the central and state govts is that tax revenues have fallen due to reduced global crude prices as well as reduced consumption due to Covid. To shore up which, tax revenues need to be enhanced in some manner. So does that mean I support the fuel price increase? Absolutely not! The real solution is to increase our tax paying population from a measly 3% to 6%. The govt needs to get genuinely aggressive (as opposed to just making a pretense) in making sure that they go after those that evade taxes, even if it is by their political brethren, such as real estate companies, educational institutions, civic works contractors (eg. hotmix asphalt plants, all majorly owned by politicians, esp around cities), etc run directly or indirectly by politicians, etc. And here, unfortunately, no political party, not the BJP, not the Congress, no party has the will to chase this avenue. Instead they keep milking the same salaried cow and cows like fuel prices again and again, and this I do NOT support.

Last edited by Sheel : 27th June 2020 at 19:11. Reason: Typos.
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