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Old 24th June 2020, 08:20   #61
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
This thought is the beginning of end of democracy.
.....
Wish you can use your improved fitness to protest when things start affecting you in the manner in which it is affecting poor people nowadays.
I understand your desperation to villainize those who don't subscribe to your PoV. But this is democracy - bludgeoning of the people, by the people and for the people. I'm happy to be nonchalant about it all and I certainly don't feel like I hold the key to the balance of the entire nation. After all, if you were to force me to subscribe to your view, that would come close to how a fascist system of governance would work, wouldn't it?
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Old 24th June 2020, 09:17   #62
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

Dear all. Here are my views on this topic. Never commented on fuel prices thread before I think

While the pro price increase arguments come from the fiscal prudence school of thought, let me use the same rationale to justify why this time around prices should not be increased.

In this phase of lock down in various parts of the country, Private fuel consumption has anyway plunged and will remain muted due to most middle class white collared folks working from home and no where to venture out. This will remain as is for atleast this year.

But let’s look at who is using fuel more these days. If we all go out to the balcony with our plates and spoons one more time we will see the below

1. Lower middle and poorer folks on 2 wheelers who have no choice but to venture out to work to earn their living either as self employed folks or entry level executives in local firms who, in most states are operating at 25-50% staff. Also a lot of health care workers are out there while we stay protected at home

2. Commercial vehicles of all sizes ferrying essentials

So I wonder why, for the fricking mercy of God can’t the Govt lower prices and give these people a direct benefit in their operating costs ? What’s the point of announcing 20lakh Crore packages of Long winded schemes which probably might never reach the needy when you can’t even pass on part of the benefit of dropping prices to your needy population ? Isn’t this a bit akin to direct cash transfer ??

Last edited by narayan : 24th June 2020 at 09:40.
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Old 24th June 2020, 09:24   #63
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/76540577.cms

Never thought I would live to see this in my lifetime!

Delhi prices today:
Petrol: ₹79.76
Diesel: ₹79.88
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Old 24th June 2020, 09:36   #64
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

There was once a time when the price difference between a litre of petrol and diesel was almost INR 30. In fact, people almost always decide on buying a diesel if their running is high and the additional premium of a diesel car can be negated by the lower diesel prices and the higher fuel economy.
And today, the unbelievable has happened. Diesel price in Delhi is more than Petrol! With more people moving towards petrol due to stricter Government norms on diesel cars, this is another blow to the diesel market.
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Old 24th June 2020, 09:43   #65
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by Sree View Post
The percentage of people paying taxes in India is very low. Thatís not going to increase in the near future due to political considerations.
Due to political considerations? Ahem, that's insightful. I thought the primary reason was the country lacked enough people making money to be paying taxes in the first place.

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Unless, the poor and middle class of this country are educated about the need for income taxes and more people willingly start paying direct taxes, this sorry situation wil continue.
The need to educate the POOR about the need for income taxes?

The heights of hypocrisy.

The POOR need to be NOT-POOR to pay income taxes.

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Originally Posted by Sree View Post
The only people really squeezed here are the middle class paying income taxes and now has to suffer this also. That will not be more than 1% of Indian population.
Intriguing. Just out of curiosity, could you please care to let us know how you ended up with the 1% figure?
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Old 24th June 2020, 09:53   #66
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post

Tax mop-up = Tax rate * Total number of taxed transactions

The number of fuel purchase transactions has gone down drastically, because of the lockdowns. So various state governments and the Centre are trying to keep the tax mop-up as near to the normal level as possible. It's simple.
I would choose to disagree.

What makes you believe that they will reduce the prices when crude prices go up? It already happened in 2018 and it will happen again citing the 'growing' economy. And that is why I strongly oppose this needless price hike.

Come on! Crude oil is just ₹20.192 per litre. And the cost of petrol and diesel after refining is just ₹24-26 . Dealer margins are roughly less than ₹4. The rest is taxes!

I don't know how people justify that much tax when a lot of people are struggling to pay for food which needs to be transported using this ridiculously priced 'essential' commodity!
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Old 24th June 2020, 10:01   #67
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by SansGT View Post
There was once a time when the price difference between a litre of petrol and diesel was almost INR 30. In fact, people almost always decide on buying a diesel if their running is high and the additional premium of a diesel car can be negated by the lower diesel prices and the higher fuel economy.
And today, the unbelievable has happened. Diesel price in Delhi is more than Petrol! With more people moving towards petrol due to stricter Government norms on diesel cars, this is another blow to the diesel market.

Everyone including me was bashing Maruti for their claim that it would take 2.5 lakh kms of running to claw back the price premium b/w petrol and diesel cars....

Its seems they might have gotten an early memo from Oil companies and the govt.!
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Old 24th June 2020, 10:04   #68
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

I think they will keep the price steady under the psychological barrier of Rs 100. All their talks of market forces determining pricing is just sham. At least let them not fool us with such talk. If we cant enjoy low pricing now, then when? Right now, people are really struggling for basics and the Government is playing the harp
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Originally Posted by Turbohead View Post
What makes you believe that they will reduce the prices when crude prices go up? It already happened in 2018 and it will happen again citing the 'growing' economy. And that is why I strongly oppose this needless price hike. Come on! Crude oil is just ₹20.192 per litre. And the cost of petrol and diesel after refining is just ₹24-26 . Dealer margins are roughly less than ₹4. The rest is taxes!
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Old 24th June 2020, 10:08   #69
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
I understand your desperation to villainize those who don't subscribe to your PoV. But this is democracy - bludgeoning of the people, by the people and for the people. I'm happy to be nonchalant about it all and I certainly don't feel like I hold the key to the balance of the entire nation. After all, if you were to force me to subscribe to your view, that would come close to how a fascist system of governance would work, wouldn't it?
Nobody is villainizing you. But you don't see the villains.
Nobody is pushing you to subscribe their thoughts. But Learn from experience and history.

While experience is our own mistakes and success, history is the collection of others' mistakes and success stories. Not just Indian history, but world history too.

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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
From my point of view, this fuel hike is a victimless crime.
That means you are a white collar employee who can work-from-home during these times, and you are not seeing how the other people are living nowadays. You may not be a direct victim of these hikes, but many others surely are.

Last edited by romeomidhun : 24th June 2020 at 10:38.
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Old 24th June 2020, 10:20   #70
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

All this proves to me how poorly and badly run as an economy we were until now. All the growth that we saw was primarily due to certain islands of excellence and some really committed folks in governance in a sea of mediocrity and below par performance.

Somehow these islands (of excellence) have been flooded and marooned and mediocrity has taken over which brings to our current economic situation of depending exclusively on taxing fuel to bring in revenue.

We do not need huge revenue admin apparatus if we need to live on fuel taxes alone. Disband all of them, and save the salaries.
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Old 24th June 2020, 10:28   #71
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by Turbohead View Post
I would choose to disagree.
Disagreements are par for the course and are welcome. Thanks for not using a dog whistle label against me. I'm happy you didn't do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
Nobody is villainizing you. But you don't see the villains.
Nobody is pushing anyone to subscribe their thoughts. But Learn from others' mistakes.

History is the collection of others' mistakes and success stories. Not just Indian history, but world history too.
I see a collection of administrations at the state and central levels. I've seen these types before and we'll see them again. Some of these politicians have campaigned by stating that they can bring petrol prices down to Rs.30 a litre but uneasy is the crown that rests upon them right now. Such people will face the music in the next elections. But that's not my point at all.

Look - what else are the central and state governments going to do anyway? They're clutching at anything really to see what gives them some more revenues. Meanwhile, my expenses have drastically gone down at this time. From my point of view, this fuel hike is a victimless crime. Inflation is inevitable and not just because of the diesel prices; I know very well that prices will shoot up. This is a crisis situation - what else did anyone expect?

Meanwhile, I'm entitled to have this point of view because in a democracy, some people are allowed to bludgeon all the people, in the name of all the people. I mean, the middle class gets bludgeoned in the name of the poor all the time, right?
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Old 24th June 2020, 10:34   #72
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

I think the human race has forgotten how to have debates without insults, innuendos, sarcasm, put downs and condescension. I don't know if the shrill debates on TV world over are a reflection of us or a cause of our behaviour. I am occasionally guilty of this behaviour myself
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Old 24th June 2020, 10:40   #73
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Intriguing. Just out of curiosity, could you please care to let us know how you ended up with the 1% figure?
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/346441

Its analysis of the data put out by the Income Tax Department. The value on an average stays around 1 percent per year. From memory - I remember it was once 2 percent a few years back which was it's all time high. It has again reduced to 1 percent as the Basic Exemption Limit for Individuals has been increased Year on Year by successive Governments

Last edited by rahul4321 : 24th June 2020 at 10:56.
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Old 24th June 2020, 10:51   #74
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

Firstly, let us dispel the notion that the poor do not pay taxes. If you buy soap, you pay GST. If you buy clothes, you pay GST. Even if you buy medicine, you pay GST (Basically, the government is taxing you for being sick). So, the poor of this country do pay taxes, just not the income tax. And that is solely because they do not have enough income to share with the government in the first place.

Secondly, I have a question to all those who are supporting the increase in fuel taxes. If it is a good thing to increase taxes on fuel, why not increase it to, say, Rs 5000 per litre? It is a rhetoric. The point that I want emphasize is that there is no formula for tax increase for fuel. It is an arbitrary decision by the government. In a democracy we must seek transparency (a big boo to arbitrariness). Hence, I stand opposed to the increase in fuel taxes.
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Old 24th June 2020, 11:02   #75
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Default Re: Fuel prices increase 16 days in a row. What the hell is happening?

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Originally Posted by rahul4321 View Post
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/346441

Its analysis of the data put out by the Income Tax Department. The value on an average stays around 1 percent per year. From memory - I remember it was once 2 percent a few years back which was it's all time high. It has again reduced to 1 percent as the Basic Exemption Limit for Individuals has been increased Year on Year by successive Governments
Thank you. I was actually questioning the below statement that spoke about the middle class.

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Originally Posted by Sree View Post
The only people really squeezed here are the middle class paying income taxes and now has to suffer this also. That will not be more than 1% of Indian population.
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