[spadix]

I don't know if this is the right thread to describe this, but here goes.

So I visited the ACP (Sadar(East)) office in Sector 51 today to pay the fine and retrieve my DL.

Summary
Damages = INR 1000.
Got my D/L back in one piece.
Wasn't asked to show proof of having removed film from car windows or anything.

Details (can be skipped if you're in a hurry)
My first visit was actually on Monday. I found out that all violators first need to attend a 1.5 hr class on driving and road safety conducted by Maruti Udyog Limited's Institute of Driving Training & Research. MUL has an on-site facility inside the PS compound called the Road Safety Knowledge Center and this is where the classes are conducted. There are 4 classes every day - 9:30 to 11, 11 to 12:30, 12:30 to 2 and 2:30 to 4. On Monday I went at 11:30 and would have had to wait a little over 1 hr for the next class to start, so I decided to drop it and visited today instead.

Went in at 9:15 am in time for the 9:30 am class. The class actually started at 9:45 am, with the instructor requesting everyone to have water or answer nature's call at the outset so as to not leave the class in the middle. The class was a bunch of videos and presentations around the basics of two-wheeler and four-wheeler road safety, and a detailed walk-through of all road safety signs, interspersed with comments from the instructor. The final section was road safety for CVs. While we may find this section a bit boring/corny (in fact many were smiling at the actors in the video and their dialogues), I would like to mention that a significant number of the class were CV drivers! The cost of this class is INR 50.

I actually learnt a thing or two. Rather, I mostly re-learnt stuff that I'd forgotten. Except that in Gurgaon, unlike in Hyderabad, one *has* to have all 4 documents (D/L, RC, PUC and insurance) in original at all times.

At the end of the 1.5 hr class, one takes the attendance receipt, challan, photocopy of the D/L (in case it isn't the D/L that was seized by the cops when you were caught) and the requisite penalty amount in cash and submits these in one of two fine collection counters. The cop there feeds data into the system, retrieves the seized document along with the file, prints out a receipt for the challan amount, signs it and gets you to acknowledge receipt of the seized document.

That's it.

I wasn't asked to show a de-filmed car nor was there any other formality. My D/L was seized and there was initially some confusion about what document must be photocopied (we all thought it was for ID proof). To be on the safe side I took a photocopy of my PAN card and kept it with me, but it wasn't required as mentioned above.

In my case, this payment process took around 1.25 hrs and I was out before 12:30 pm. So total time spent was around 3.25 hrs.

All in all, really smooth and kudos to Gurgaon traffic police for trying hard to instil good driving manners into all violators/offenders, and also for having a low-overhead and procedurally smooth fee collection + document return process.

Things that could have been better -

• AC in the class - ACs were there but weren't switched on because they were apparently malfunctioning. With 70 people inside, it got a tad uncomfortable. Luckily it was 9:30 am to 11:00 am and not one of the later classes!
• Slightly better space management - the room containing the fee collection counters was spacious enough but the entrance to this room was absolutely jam-packed. People were almost completely very well-behaved and no one was jumping queues etc. Very, very surprising considering this is Gurgaon.
• Better efficiency from the cops - There were 70 people from my class + possibly a handful of people from previous days' classes who had come in to pay their dues today. My case took under 2 mins to process at the counter. So with two fully functioning counters, 70+ people's cases - with many not having the requisite photocopy or fees - should have taken much less than 1.25 hrs. In fact, part of the problem was that the cops were collecting the fees *after* all document entry. So anyone who didn't know how much they had to pay and were short of the required amount would have to run out and fetch the money. So it would've helped to have a detailed break-up of all dues on the challan itself. This can be very easily done and should be done.
• People's attitude during the class itself - While they were very nice in the fee collection queues, inside the class was a completely different story. There was constant chit-chat, mobile phone usage, general lack of attention towards the content and indiscipline during entry/exit/attendance receipt collection. Some things never change.
• Police vehicles - Beat vehicles had curtains on the windows. Then again, the Hon'ble SC seems to have left govt. departments to define and enforce their own rules w.r.t. sun films and other VLT-affecting mechanisms. Of course, there are *tons* of cars with really darkly-filmed windows that pass by the PS all day, every day. Couldn't help but feel very unlucky.

Tip to all Gurgaon traffic violators on the forum

1. Ensure that you visit the PS between 1 week and 1 month of getting the challan. If you visit within a week, your documents and file wouldn't yet be ready and your visit will be in vain. If you delay it by a month, your file will be sent to the court and that's a real headache.
2. Please note down the class timings and plan accordingly. Expect the whole thing to take around 3.5 hrs end-to-end.
3. The class isn't all that bad. In fact, I found it useful.
4. You can attend the class one day and pay the fine some other day. Just keep in mind point 1 above.
5. Carry a bottle of water with you, and ensure you have all the required docs and a pen to finally sign the acknowledgement. It's pretty smooth overall.

Apologies once again for going off-topic.

Regards,
spadix

[DRIVE_ADDICT]

Originally Posted by Jignesh

Thus all the parties involved here are happy making fame & money.

The only sufferer is common man (Car owner here) who like a honest tax paying citizen abide to law as & when it is changed. First he will pay the fine & will get the Sunfilms removed from his Car & later after 6 months purchase them again at higher rates to put then again on the car. In the mean time will be roasted & baked in his car & get frustrated.

Thanks,

We the citizen can do one thing (the probability is though 0% in our democracy, but feel good to do this ). If SC itself agrees the stay order in later period favouring the sun film manufacturer. We the law abiding citizen whom earlier removed the sun film SHOULD file a petition in SC to reimburse the cost of re-fixing the sun film which we removed.

[PatchyBoy]

Originally Posted by spadix

[*]People's attitude during the class itself - While they were very nice in the fee collection queues, inside the class was a completely different story. There was constant chit-chat, mobile phone usage, general lack of attention towards the content and indiscipline during entry/exit/attendance receipt collection. Some things never change.[*]Police vehicles - Beat vehicles had curtains on the windows. Then again, the Hon'ble SC seems to have left govt. departments to define and enforce their own rules w.r.t. sun films and other VLT-affecting mechanisms.

Of course, there are *tons* of cars with really darkly-filmed windows that pass by the PS all day, every day. Couldn't help but feel very unlucky.

Very useful info.
While it is a plesant surprise about the mandatory class, it is dis-heartening that people don't take it seriously. Also, agree with you about the unlucky part, but then who ever said that life is fair?

Originally Posted by DRIVE_ADDICT

We the citizen can do one thing (the probability is though 0% in our democracy, but feel good to do this ). If SC itself agrees the stay order in later period favouring the sun film manufacturer. We the law abiding citizen whom earlier removed the sun film SHOULD file a petition in SC to reimburse the cost of re-fixing the sun film which we removed.

Good thought. But who is going to reimburse? SC? Govt. of India? Even if they do, it will be like - produce the receipt, prove that you removed the film after the SC ruling, we will tax the money by 35%, grease our palms,etc.

Rajan

[spadix]

Originally Posted by EasyR1der

I was going through the Supreme court Judgement and found one thing which was peculiar it is mentioned "black film". This made me wonder that the tint(which has been removed) on my city was sort of green.
So is this ruling also applicable to people who have tint on any other color than black ?

This is another one of those ambiguities which if raised would prompt the powers that be to respond along the lines of "in letter and in spirit". Besides the Hon'ble SC also said that all films are banned.

Just like how we must take "cars" to mean "all motor vehicles" and "tints" to mean "already applied to the glass and not any add-on", we must now take "black" to mean anything other than fully transparent. I have 3M's RE films which are definitely not "black", but at the same time, the court did ban any non-OEM/aftermarket addition of material to the windows and glass.

Originally Posted by DRIVE_ADDICT

We the law abiding citizen whom earlier removed the sun film SHOULD file a petition in SC to reimburse the cost of re-fixing the sun film which we removed.

I don't think this is ever going to fly. If anything it will get the petitioner into trouble for wasting the court's time. Things keep changing with time and it's not fair to look back on them and retrospectively apply counter-factual logic. Is there any precedent of the court having ordered reimbursement of material damages caused by reversal of law inside a very short (subjective) duration?

Originally Posted by PatchyBoy

Very useful info.
While it is a plesant surprise about the mandatory class, it is dis-heartening that people don't take it seriously.

Thanks, Rajan! You're welcome.

I found that interest and participation in the class increased with interaction. So on the PPT, if the instructor showed a symbol (without the accompanying meaning) and asked the class for answers, people participated whole-heartedly. However, videos and other non-interactive content were victims of really short attention spans.

Most importantly, it's about discipline. People entered the class in a rush as soon as the gates opened, were constantly looking for ways to avoid the 1.5 hr class and somehow pay that INR 50 and get the attendance receipt etc. (although surprisingly the same set of people were very disciplined in the fee collection queues -- was it due to fear of the cops behind the counters?).

Some were obviously repeat offenders so I could understand the source of boredom. But that also means that prior attendance in the class had absolutely no effect. You can't fault the police and MUL for trying, however. It's us who have to change.

Regards,
spadix

[honeybee]

While driving to office today, I saw a WagonR pulled up by a traffic cop (can't say it was pulled over since the guy had stopped in the tracks, blocking a whole lane). Am not sure why the car was stopped. The glasses were all dark (as in black), and it had numberplates with Marathi letters, so couldn't know exactly what was the offense.

I am still seeing lots of cars with tints/films, even pitch black ones, drive merrily around. Am not sure if/when the cops will turn the heat on.

[pgsagar]

If we go through recent years' statistics, we will see that more crimes are committed by rich, powerfull super-haves than have-nots and poor. And these rich and mighty who travel around in luxury cars sporting VIP badges will move around with darkest imaginable tints while "aam" junta will be forced to abide by the rules. Wow!!! How great can things get in this country.

[PatchyBoy]

Originally Posted by EasyR1der

I was going through the Supreme court Judgement and found one thing which was peculiar it is mentioned "black film". This made me wonder that the tint(which has been removed) on my city was sort of green.
So is this ruling also applicable to people who have tint on any other color than black ?

SC Ruling:

23. In light of the above discussion, we have no hesitation in holding that use of black films or any other material upon safety glass, windscreen and side windows is impermissible.
In terms of Rule 100(2), 70 per cent and 50 per cent VLT standard are relatable to the manufacture of the safety glasses for the windshields (front and rear) and the side windows respectively. Use of films or any other material upon the windscreen or the side windows is impermissible in law. It is the VLT of the safety glass without any additional material being pasted upon the safety glasses which must conform with manufacture specifications.

There is no ambiguity in the ruling. There is ambiguity in the petition, as the petition only talks about black films.

CMV rule 100(2) is very clear in stating that the minimum permissible VLT for front and rear is 70% and side is 50%.

Rule 100 (2) provides that the glass of the windscreen and rear window of every motor vehicle shall be such and shall be maintained in such a condition that VLT is not less than 70 per cent and on side windows not less than 50 per cent and would conform to Indian Standards [IS:2553-Part2-1992].

The underlined bit means at the time of manufacture. Therefore, it is imperative that any alteration is illegal as provided by the law. It is also imperative that the whole automotive sun control film industry is illegal and RTO approvals for any film is even more illegal.


I only wish that we fight to amend laws that are either out-dated or are not practical, rather than fight enforcement.

Rajan

[DRIVE_ADDICT]

Originally Posted by spadix

I don't think this is ever going to fly. If anything it will get the petitioner into trouble for wasting the court's time. Things keep changing with time and it's not fair to look back on them and retrospectively apply counter-factual logic. Is there any precedent of the court having ordered reimbursement of material damages caused by reversal of law inside a very short (subjective) duration?

Thsts why i said the probability is 0% on my post. but why not, this can be taken into consideration if there is a mass of petitioners, with proof of police chellan and video footage of cops removing sun film from our cars. Again these were just wishes to happen!.

[Jignesh]

Originally Posted by DRIVE_ADDICT

We the citizen can do one thing (the probability is though 0% in our democracy, but feel good to do this ). If SC itself agrees the stay order in later period favouring the sun film manufacturer. We the law abiding citizen whom earlier removed the sun film SHOULD file a petition in SC to reimburse the cost of re-fixing the sun film which we removed.

Hello,

Good Humor.

But we all know that if in near future the Supreme Court Judgement is stayed, it will be practically impossible to expect a refund for Sunfilms removed by honest law abiding Car Owners.

And who will refund us the money? Government? Traffic Police? The Petitioner?

Consider this:
Has anybody ever refund of road tax paid on Car when he transfer his Car to another State & re-registers there?

Has anybody ever got compensation when his Car is damaged by a Government Vehicle?

In our Democracy we have Government which is Of the People, By the People & For the People, but the same Government never keeps interest of same People in mind before passing any new Laws.

Thanks,

[DRIVE_ADDICT]

Originally Posted by Jignesh

Consider this:
Has anybody ever refund of road tax paid on Car when he transfer his Car to another State & re-registers there?

Atleast this happened, See this thread for example
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ax-refund.html

[nandans2005]

Well, whats the purpose of getting the tints removed ? To make person's face visible right, is this the only reason? Dont tell me that SC will pass an order sometime in the near future to wear helmets only with clear visors !!!

Going forward i wouldn't be surprised if a new rule is passed that during driving or riding to wear only clear spectacles and not the Raybans !!! for the pilots and even more for the fighter pilots with JET BLACK VISOR HELMETS which covers 3/4 of the face.

I think SC should concentrate on more serious issues and scams

[man_and_machine]

The Karnataka HC had instructed that all "unscientific (god knows what than means)" road humps be removed (I am not sure if that was an order or just an instruction). Now the same traffic cops who are jumping (or will start jumping around) to flag cars with films ply on these notorious road humps each hour, does it not remind them to remove those, with the same fervor they are showing to remove the films? This is a clear misuse of the term "enforcement". Do what is the easiest and most visible! like they are in show business!
How many times do I leave bags in the rear seat of the car, now with clear glasses I will have to double careful with these. While I park my car at the mall, I have to think on the order of shopping so that the car while parked does not get any special attention from a "peeping" thief. Recently I got news from a friend in Delhi that toilets in the malls are being used for crimes against the fair gender (shame on those guys, but that is off topic). So now what will the SC say, make toilets in malls out of glass? he..he..

As much as I am a law abiding citizen (I am one of those guys who will stand at red light on the ORR in BLR at 12:00 mid night, with none on either side of the roads, while an occasional taxi will zip past me as if I and the red light never existed!), I really do not understand the considerations of this order.

Why can't this be region specific? I mean each city say has a cut off for selling liquor its 11:00 PM in Bangalore, its different in other metros. Does it mean that other metros have better behaving drunk guys? No, its just the social physique in that part of the country, and the ability of the local police to handle the cut off hour, and their ability to patrol and prevent crime that might arise of of it. Why is this consideration not applicable in this sun film rule? From which other part of the country (Delhi+ NCR, Kolkatta off late, no offense against these areas, but just based on public knowledge) have reported such acts? I mean why should some one from coastal karnataka (Mangalore) or say Ahmendabad (say!) be penalized, where such bad habits are not heard off.

I am not saying that we should wait for these to happen and then change, that is not the argument, but the rational is why can't the order have been more practical.
1. First target the area where the threat exists
2. Drive enforcement strictly and get the stats if that has helped (I guess it might)
3. It it does not then there is not point in extending it pan India, it anyways does not help!
4. If it does again it does not make sense to extend it pan India! (well the source of the petition does not exist)!

My take is that rather can a curt and harsh judgement it could have been more analytical and practical. But then, this is the SC and this is the rule!

I have a feeling that this rule will have amendments, but its all about the harassment of the common man until then!

Originally Posted by nandans2005

I think SC should concentrate on more serious issues and scams

Agree, Like why is my tax money being spent on keeping Kasab live at the cost of lakhs of Rupees per month! (Sorry: )

But they have to take care of all the walk of life and a "common tax payer, paying EMI on his car, getting hurt with rising fuel costs and taffic police harassment" is a BIG threat that they can't ignore and they are hell bound to bake him in the summer!

Note from the Team-BHP Support Team: Please use the "edit" button if posting within 30 minutes of the first post, instead of creating another back-to-back post.

[Parthasarathig]

Originally Posted by man_and_machine

.....

Originally Posted by nandans2005

I think SC should concentrate on more serious issues and scams

Originally Posted by Jignesh

Hello,

Good Humor.

But we all know that if in near future the Supreme Court Judgement is stayed, it will be practically impossible to expect a refund for Sunfilms removed by honest law abiding Car Owners.

And who will refund us the money? Government? Traffic Police? The Petitioner?

Friends, Indians, Countrymen welcome to India, the country you were most fortunate enough to be born in yet the country where the common man gets run down and scam artists that call themselves politicians go scot free and are in turn treated as Gods.

Like you have said, the democracy by, for and of the people. That is actually in an ideal democracy, which our country's forefathers had dreamt of after our independence.

But after a few decades, this democracy has become "buy the people(voters), scam and con the people."

So please lose all your hope, thinking that someday the authorities will indeed try to do something for the common man. The authorities have been given absolute power regarding the governance of our country and they are doing a tremendous job of it as goes the saying "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

BHPians in Bangalore do get your films removed before the given date, as after the deadline, film challans will be flowing as freely as water.

an interesting discussion going on traffic police's facebook page, shows how we, the people, have forgotten to live unitedly as Indians, rather than be divided regionally and on languages. And we will be the first ones to raise a hue and cry of racial discrimination when we are abroad.

Cheers!

[rjalihal]

I was chatting with one of the chief inspectors of Sadashivnagar Traffic Police Station on Sunday night at the neighborhood club, and we came to the topic of tints. I wanted first hand information and thus i went to the source. He maintains that they will crack down on the wrong doers and that despite what papers say they mean no 'films'. Tinted windows (not films) from manufacturers are ok as long as they are under the permissable VLT level. However, after 2 hours and in a jolly mood, he said that so far the removal of films has been accomplished on less than 10% of all registered vehicles! So there may be an extension of grace period for the same. They expect to book 4 digit offenders this weekend for driving with tint windows. All traffic police stations are gradually being equipped with the 'Tint Meter 100' (I assume it is used to measure tint but don't know how it works). They have a high level meeting on Friday and will decide on how to curb this once and for all. So to sum it all, this rule is expected to be as strictly enforced as drunken driving since it has come from the Supreme Court. Time to kiss dark films goodbye!
This was as told to me by the very jolly Inspector. So pardon me if you find it all calm this weekend.

Cheers!
Rohan

[volkman10]

Karnataka Inspector General of Police has served a 31st May ultimatum for car owners to remove the window tints on their cars. Offenders are liable to be fined and their cars seized for removal of tints. Till 31st, the police will campaign for educating car owners about the new ruling and will suggest them to remove tints without fine

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