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Old 17th September 2020, 10:27   #151
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
It is interesting to note that the statements back tracking on what was said were made by Kirloskar, who holds a 11% stake in the Indian entity
Wonder why Kirloskar is still a partner. Almost as if Toyota is in perpetual fear that one day the government would mandate all foreign auto companies to have a local partner. And they have one in case.

Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
I find it amazing that so many people talk of Kia’s success as proof that Toyota’s statement is incorrect. The fact is that Kia benefited from the massive scale that Hyundai’s operations in India give it in terms of indigenising parts.
inconsistent tax policies make it not worthwhile to invest in our country.

The Kia-Hyundai setup in India is VW-Skoda's wet dream in India. Independent it maybe, but it surely is piggybacking on Hyundai's base.

It was a growth phase, and we as a market benefited from it. The Japanese may have been equally agressive in the 70 and 80s, managing to capture the largest market in the world, and in fact rest of the world too. By the time they came to India in the late 90s, they became too big and complacent.
RC Bhargava in his 'The Maruti story' had mentioned how rest of the Japanese companies were too huge and slow to deal with, and Suzuki with it's non air conditioned office and Osamu Suzuki at it's helm quickly built a personal rapport and was eager to enter India.

While Hyundai had just started to make properly engineered cars in the late 90s, their aggressiveness in India paid them off.
If they were a decade early, or a decade late, they would have had a different story to tell.

Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Maruti and Hyundai / Kia together have 75% of the Indian market. For others playing for 2-5% of the market, the scale does not exist to manufacture locally.

In short, our taxation policies are perpetuating the monopoly that Maruti and Hyundai have. Why should Toyota keep investing on its own - and not benefit from the scale that Suzuki has? Why should they invest in anything other than nicely made badges?
It feels as if Maruti is so far killing the Indian auto industry in the long run.
The statement may seek a bit rich, considering they make good quality, reliable, fuel efficient vehicles and started treating customers properly in an era where they didn't need to.
But they did have a clear head start. Not just in terms of a decade plus, but in government support too.
Just consider the applications rejected by the government in the mid 80s for car manufacturing licenses.

They always cry hoarse when the pollution norms are upgraded, while even Tata and Mahindra who has smaller R&D expertise go on about upgrading to the pollution norms, the deadlines always seems to be delayed for years before implementing.
Explains why Maruti was caught off guard when BS6 was implemented. They thought they could push it further by an year or two when their 1.5l diesel was BS6 ready.

Same case as in safety and crash test norms.
While I do believe Maruti was behind diluting the crash test norms ( decreased speeds ), if it was in the late 2000s, Maruti would have fought tooth and nail to postpone or even cancel crash test norms.

About the sub 4m regulations having MSIL written all over it, less said the better.

More than the GST rates, Toyota is concerned on the hybrid policy.
With the only BS6 diesel they have in their whole international line-up, the GD series used in their BOF vehicles. They must have planned hybrids as a replacement for diesels in their monocoque vehicles. Which is what's happening in the rest of the world regardless of the EV revolution.

So they are at the cross roads, where even if they bring in models sacrificing cost margins, they couldn't possibly use the hybrid tag as an USP.
Yes, petrol is back, but ordinary Indians won't be able to stomach the FE of a 1200kg+ petrol vehicle.

The 2000 crores for electrification is no doubt going to hybridization.
Regardless of government policies they are going ahead with it. Pretty sure the upcoming Creta rival will have a proper hybrid.
And who is a better partner than Maruti with the volumes.

Regarding the Urban cruiser/Glanza sticker jobs, could see it as a start of the partnership, or as rumours go, they were done to keep the dealers afloat. Pretty hard to let go off good dealers.

Not going to paint Toyota as saints. God knows what's stopping them from launching the Raize, Yaris cross and Corolla cross. All of them looking as if tailor made for the Indian market.
Even the SAs at dealers are ruing the fact why couldn't TKM bring the Raize to India, instead of the Urban cruiser.
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Old 17th September 2020, 10:42   #152
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

Originally Posted by GTO View Post

Toyota never brought its latest hatchbacks, sedans & crossovers here (despite a boom in crossovers), nor its latest technologies to the volume segments.
Cross posting volkman10's and my post from another thread . If Toyota can make one of the safest cars, what stops them from launching it in India? Why this step motherly treatment? Why did they launch Glanza? It shows that they're really not committed to Indian market, all they want is to fool the gullible customers and mint money. So whatever excuses they have is plain BS. Agreed the taxation is not as per liking of the industry, but what motive has Toyota shown to actually be serious about Indian market? Before blaming the government or the system, they should also take a look inside their own plans.

Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
New Toyota Yaris Sets the Benchmark for Small Family Car Safety.

Today, Euro NCAP returns with the result of the first car to be rated against its revamped 2020 protocols. Toyota’s latest small family car, the Yaris, chalks up a full five stars.

Source:Euro NCAP
Originally Posted by BoneCollector View Post
Wow. Toyota offers side airbags on both sides of the front seats! That's super impressive, and so is the test result. If Toyota has such a safe family hatchback, why did they go ahead with Glanza? Glanza can never ever hold a candle to this one, not even most of the sedans and CSUVs sold here. I really feel sad that India is treated like a 3rd grade market by some manufacturers.

Last edited by BoneCollector : 17th September 2020 at 10:44. Reason: Inserting the YouTube link as it was not visible.
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:26   #153
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

There are two primary issues here
- Who made the statements to the media
- What statements were made to the media

If we do look at the second part i.e. the content of the statement from Toyota, I certainly see a lot of merit in their grievances. Lets not forget, due to multiple reasons, 2019 was a bad year for the automobile sector and everyone hoped that 2020 would be better. These are statements that were reported in January 2020.

“It had been a tough year, but now we look forward to the New Year with optimism,” Shashank Srivastava, director (marketing & sales) at Maruti Suzuki, told TOI. Maruti — which also flags rising vehicle prices as a depressant — was able to hold on to its 50% share of the market, but feels that the industry still remains “cautiously optimistic”. Srivastava said that easing of interest rates, and better rural sentiments may help the industry regain numbers.
Rajesh Goel, senior vice president and director, sales and marketing, Honda Cars India, said that while the tough period may continue, “The market seems to have bottomed out” for now. “It may still take a few more quarters, at least till the festive period later this year, to fully recover. However, we remain confident.”
This is before the Covid crises and the subsequent challenges to the economy, jobs and so on. The industry has been looking to the government for support but none seems to be coming.

Well someone had to bell the cat and I am glad that Toyota did it. Had it been a smaller player who decided to speak up, it would not have even made the news. If it did, then everyone would have had a good laugh at their expense. Well, Toyota's bold statement does seem to have rattled a few cages and subsequently, Kirloskar has tried to mend some fences. At least Toyota's speaking out brought the problems out in the open once again and made officials sit up and take notice. Hopefully this leads to some positive action from their side.

Also, for Toyota to have to step up and say something, which is very unlike them as far as I have seen, one can only imagine what things are actually like in the sector but remain unsaid!
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:43   #154
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

This thread has moved from being a discussion on India's tax policies, which is what Toyota spoke of to a thread on Toyota's India bound range of products, their pricing or on high taxes. I don't hold a candle for Toyota the fact is that the inconsistency in our tax policies, constant change in rates and leaving companies open to the mercy of each assessing officer interpreting rules in his or her way is what makes our country investor unfriendly. As an investor you can, up to a point live with high tax rates so long as the rates and the interpretation of the fine print is consistent. The interpretation sadly varies from year to year and assessing officer to assessing officer. Hence Toyota's expression that these are 'we don't want you taxes'. Needless to say Toyota India has to set its own house in order and Toyota, Japan has to stop viewing the Indian market with jaundiced eyes but it does not take away from the fundamental premise.

And this inconsistency arises at a tactical level, in my limited experience, from three sources - First the pressure placed on assessing officers to meet unrealistic targets to meet a Govt forever starved of funds {holds true for both UPA and NDA Governments}; and second a deep distrust that all commercial establishments are into wholesale cheating; and three lack of political will to drive taxation in a 10-year direction instead of scraping by each year. This last point is exacerbated by the narrow mindedness of industry. When the Tax Dept seeks inputs from industry the only points senior industrialists bring up are rate cuts for their products!!! It is further worsened by ignorance in the political class to once and for all announce a ten year policy and then stay with it.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 17th September 2020 at 11:57.
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:56   #155
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

Originally Posted by DicKy View Post
The 2000 crores for electrification is no doubt going to hybridization.
Regardless of government policies they are going ahead with it. Pretty sure the upcoming Creta rival will have a proper hybrid.
And who is a better partner than Maruti with the volumes.

By pulling away all the small diesel engines , their focus would be on petrol hybrid for the future including India. They must be silently preparing themselves along with Suzuki to move to the next phase & also helping Suzuki to plan & secure their future market share .

As you rightly pointed out , regardless of govt policies or high taxes on hybrid cars , they know that the future lies with HEV or BEV & hence they will go ahead in hybridization of their vehicles . At this point their only goal would be to lobby & convince the Govt in lowering the taxes for Hybrids vehicles & they have a good partner for this very important job.

They are simply not just the largest auto manufacturers in the world with the best per car profit in the mass segment, they must be having the best think tanks to chalk out every strategy & every move for their global operations . It might have also included what we saw Toyota in India till date .
Whatever said & done , I feel India will see the best technologies of Toyota in the near future .
Like a sniper , silent & waiting for the right time to pull the trigger !

Last edited by Aditya : 17th September 2020 at 13:17. Reason: Quote tag fixed
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Old 17th September 2020, 12:10   #156
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

We should acknowledge and understand the fact that out country is having some of the weirdest tax rules on automobiles, Sub 4 M, 1.2 L etc are just few of them.

I remember reading in one of GM's exit note that they cannot manufacture cars in India at the price point where an average Indian customer is expecting as they cannot de-spec the car in terms of safety and quality to that level to match the pricing. Another important point to note here is that they would have been able to survive if they had enough volumes which they were not able to make as Maruti was dominant in every segment and shameless enough to make cars with compromised design & safety and we bought them without a second thought.

KIA is an exception but how many Hyundai or Maruti cars sold in India is road worthy in another countries in terms of safety and design as is? Am sure 90% of them are not and am sure that all the Toyota product as world class including Liva and Etios.

Rather than jacking up the prices of Innova and Forturner every quarter, Toyota should bring other world class product to India and price them sensibility and enter into volume segment.
They can learn few things from Honda.

Last edited by Superleggera : 17th September 2020 at 12:12.
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Old 17th September 2020, 12:13   #157
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

Originally Posted by 1.2TSI7DSG View Post
Frankly, even if I was looking at a business, I wouldn't invest. High GST is one of the factors, Income tax, Taxes on dividend, Import restrictions from China, Flipflop policies on Hybrids & Electrics, make it very pathetic country to deal with. Add to to that market uncertainty, as a pure business decision, it would be a no. Now you can all Ratan Tata and say a promise is a promise and still go ahead with a project like Nano. But you need a large heart for that and an emotional connect to go heart over head.
Except facts vitiate against your argument.

FDI in the automobile industry in India in 2013 was $1.2bn.

It was $2.9bn in 2020. It climbed to $2.2bn by 2016, then crashed to $1.6bn in 2017 and has nearly doubled again since.

This figure of $2.9bn excludes the $1bn planned by Great wall (which will resume though by Dec types as it is political posturing at this point). $4bn from $1.2bn is more than tripling of FDI in 7 years.

Clearly your sentiments seem to go against facts.

1) India is a growing economy, starting 1990 - 2020 of major economies only China has had higher and more consistent growth, none of other BRICS or BRICN(Nigeria) nations even come close to the scale and size of market India has

2) India's per capita car, or indeed vehicle ownership numbers are abysmal, yet it is already the 4th largest auto market in the world. India has 28 motor vehicles (not even cars) / 1,000.

2a) India is expected to be the 3rd largest auto market by 2022-23 (was projected for 2021 in 2018 but covid)

3) even at 5% growth rates till 2030, India is expected to add 60-75mn households into the "consumption class", this will make vehicle ownership to grow at a cagr of 10% conservatively

Automakers like Hyundai, Kia, Saic and Great wall see a lot of potential.

Toyota in puerile jargon, suck and crying sour grapes
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Old 17th September 2020, 12:50   #158
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
So just 15% growth in average sales per month for the industry in nearly a decade - or 1.5% pa growth. In an economy which claimed to be the fastest growing in the world. In the same period, Chinese auto sales rose from 13.7 mm to 21 mm (after peaking at 24 mm in 2018) - over 50% growth on a much larger base

Why has this happened? Largely a function of taxation policies, and we are not talking of import duties on CBUs.
Very correctly analyzed.
The debate/issue of progress and growth of the Indian auto sector is bigger than that of one single manufacturer’s growth (or lack of growth) in India. Indian auto sector hasn't grown as we would like it to be and inconsistent policies certainly have a major role to play.

Automotive industry is a major manufacturing engine in any economy. A larger auto industry means jobs, solid auto component manufacturing base, exports, attracts investments in infrastructure, develops indigenous design & development capabilities and the same also has a rub-off effect on other related sectors.

Funny rules on length, size, ground clearance ensure that products are made to fit a certain local tax/duty structure and not necessarily for evolving consumer preference or global competitiveness. Needless to say, most car exports from India are only of smaller cars that sold in India. Taxing consumption here also means taxing engineering, development and manufacturing.

A stronger auto component industry also means global competitiveness for OEM exports. We do already export, there are some good examples, not enough. But if you look at the spare’s markets, except for Suzuki OEM spares, very few India manufactured spares find their way in the spare’s markets globally. On the other hand, the Chinese auto component /spares industry has a much deeper and wider reach than their automotive/car brands.

A Kia or MG doing wonders with their one product is great but we should broaden the view to the overall sector.

That the Indian auto and auto-comp industry’s stifled growth is a product of too much taxation and policy inconsistency, is a fact. And if a few leaders bring it out to public discussion, is a good thing even at the cost of being politically incorrect. They should not be vilified.
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Old 17th September 2020, 13:03   #159
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

VW, Toyota, GM, Ford, Honda, Stellantis , Renault Nissan Mistubishi alliance - Top car companies in the world appears be clueless or lazy when it comes to our car market.

They can blame the government`s policies however these policies apply to all of them, so how is that some succeed and others do not. The answer perhaps is priorities, our market while having huge potential to grow is not friendly towards unattractive products, is the government stopping these manufacturers from producing a Creta \ Seltos? Nope!

Our home grown Tata has figured out competent products like Tiago, Altroz and Nexon. They all fall within the affordable range for majority of the car buyers, Attractive styling, well built , VFM. Mahindra however has not figured out how to make or sell affordable passenger cars even now and has lost the spot to Tata. KIA Sonet is going to be Mahindra`s mythical 'Vamanan' in the sales chart.
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Old 17th September 2020, 13:06   #160
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

Several members have shared their views on both sides – Govt policies, tax structure and Automobile company’s business practices. Both have their merit and as the saying goes – the reality is somewhere in between. I believe government has to take a bigger blame.

I wanted to draw member’s attention to the pricing and amount of tax collected for a given vehicle in two cities. I have culled the data from and chosen two cities – Bangalore and Chandigarh since these two cities have the extreme Road tax structure. I have chosen a vehicle, which I believe should be a comfortable and safe vehicle for middle class (affordability point of view). You can choose any vehicle upwards 1 million INR ex showroom price for comparison, which offer safety, comfort and efficient engine vehicle. You will see below when a vehicle is sold how much money goes towards taxes (state and central) and how much a company gets to keep. If there are any shortcomings in my estimates below, I am happy to stand corrected. The calculations are from a salaried taxpayer’s perspective, because I believe this (salaried tax payers) is a big segment driving up the sales of vehicles.


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From the table above, it is clear that no matter what an automobile company gets to keep the same fixed amount of money irrespective of where the vehicle is sold. That establishes what a company gets in selling a vehicle. From consumer point of view high fuel cost, repair/maintenance cost and insurance cost – you know why it is difficult to own a vehicle, consequently why it is hard to sell a decent vehicle.

Since the several discussions were centered around Toyota, let’s see from their perspective.

Disclaimer: I do not own any at present nor do I intend to buy any Toyota vehicle in near future.

I am using the example of Innova crysta in my analysis below. You may take any vehicle for that matter; outcomes do not change significantly.

If you have noticed Innova sales were hovering around 6K vehicles per month for long period. In this background – we may look at a few things:
• Manufacturing setup (capital) cost – from the foundry to the engine to minute parts.
• Service network
• Making the spare parts available for a period of time
When you setup such a facility you would have worked out that to become profitable you need to sell a certain number of vehicles over a period of time. Is that 6K per month for 5-7 years? Looks too small a volume to me. If you have noticed their service – it is top notch. I had been to their workshop and experience it firsthand and I am comparing it against my own experience of Maruti Suzuki and Volkswagen. All these costs big money to setup and maintain. Unless one attains the critical volume, it may not be that profitable.

I would bet Toyota known for their efficiency, if did not meet their expectations, I doubt other companies could. Result is already visible – we do not have many worthwhile and reliable brand in that price bracket. Consequently, there is almost nil competition for Innova at present in India.

Unless we see a policy change towards – mobility is a necessity, rather than a luxury; need safe vehicles rather than budget vehicles; bit of comfort doesn’t mean luxury; get the new tech for cleaner and efficient engines – we will be languishing in this morass for years to come. For a 5 Trillion US$ economy that we are aspiring for, we need lot more vehicles on road than what we have now. It can also be a significant contributing factor for service industry.

To summarize, I would lean on the view that governments need to take a more holistic look and make rational decisions. It’s the same pathetic policy we have been following since independence – whenever you fall short of money tax the middle class any goods that costs a few thousand bucks and deem them to be luxury. Alas, that’s not going to be the case in near future for sure. Automobile is one of the worst casualty here, since better mobility has the potential to improve the quality of life and that’s immediate. Today, even a salaried person earning 6 lakhs in places like Bangalore is considered middle class by the government, but their life is worse than that of someone earning 2.5 lakhs in small town.
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Old 17th September 2020, 13:15   #161
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

Oh, Toyota! Allow me to cue tragic music for you on the world's smallest violin.

1. Let me start with this- to pretend that we've even been anything but a low priority market for you would be deceitful. India has had a soft corner for Toyota since the Qualis turned into the Innova which turned into the Crysta- something you simply took for granted and failed to capitalise upon. You enjoyed our adulation then, yet you have the gall to cry foul now.

2. The Fortuner, Toyota's Top-Dog barring the Camry and LC, (members please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) till very recently came with two airbags in the top spec variant. Toyota only corrected this after launching the Yaris. So de-speccing cars to fatten their profit margins clearly isn't an issue for them.

3. As mentioned above by many members before me, Kia sure had the advantage with Hyundai already having a significant presence in the country, but they also had a laudable vision! The Seltos came as a premium offering in the right segment at the right time. Toyota, let's be honest has been offering some really bland cars to us and have suffered for it. Remember how fond India was of the Corolla? Am I the only one who remembers the Shake yo' Bon-Bon ad music? A well maintained pale gold Corolla still turns heads (mine atleast, for sure). Then why, when the market was clearly moving towards crossovers did they dig their head in the sand? The Altis died a slow, agonizing death and there's nothing to tie down Toyota's spot in the 15-25 L crossover segment. That's not the tax man's fault, is it?

4. The Camry. What were they thinking? Actually, you know, the less said the better. Let's leave it at that.

In closing, I'd just say good riddance. They decided it was easier to do a badge exchange with a brand which has nothing to do with Quality or Revolution, so to be honest, it serves them right. Every market is different. Is India complicated? Yes. Dynamic? Yes. Difficult? Yeah, no doubt. Is it impossible to cope with it for a a top brand which has a whole city based around it in Japan? No, absolutely not. They didn't deepen their manufacturing ties in India. They didn't bring in competent, relevant products. They rested on their two blind hits for too long and got mad when others waved as they passed them by.

Sorry, not sorry, Toyota.

Last edited by Singh101 : 17th September 2020 at 13:38. Reason: Hadn't finished. Pressed 'Post' by mistake.
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Old 17th September 2020, 13:17   #162
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

Now, Masakazu Yoshimura, Managing Director, Toyota Kirloskar Motor has given a statement on the matter.

Toyota Kirloskar Motor continues to be deeply committed to India and its national objectives. We have firm belief in the core strength of the country’s economic growth potential and are fully committed for continually working towards contributing to the economic development. Keeping in sync with our vision of ‘Grow India – Grow with India, during the past two decades of our presence in the country, we have worked tirelessly to invest in creation of a world-class talent pool and for building a strong competitive local supplier eco-system’ in line with the ‘Skill India” and the “Make in India” initiatives. Our operations in India are an integral part of our long-term global strategy. As part of these efforts, Toyota Group in India is targeting to invest over Rs. 2,000 crore in India in the coming years on technology and electrification, both for the domestic and the exports market. We reaffirm that TKM intends to make all efforts to promote and introduce newer, cleaner and world-class technologies and services in the market.
Link to Team-BHP News Article

Last edited by Aditya : 17th September 2020 at 13:34.
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Old 17th September 2020, 14:00   #163
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

This is typical of how our Govt. releases clarification after clarification on its own circulars/orders. Such repeated clarifications from a private company doesn't seem right. A top executive would rarely blabber something in public, to the media, on matters such as this. I wonder if this was just to get the Govt's ear. Something is at play here which we obviously would never know.
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Old 17th September 2020, 14:09   #164
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

While I agree with Toyota that our taxation structures and policies are not only extremely crippling but are a major deterrent to the growth of the nation, I have to call bullshit on their nonsense.

They may have given India the Qualis, Innova and Fortuner, but, they also only ever offered sub standard and/or over priced products for the rest of the range, and, truth be told, I really don't think the Innova or Fortuner are worth the amount the ask for them either. They really have not released relevant products for the market. They've shot themselves in the foot with their arrogance.
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Old 17th September 2020, 14:46   #165
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Default Re: Toyota halts India expansion, blames ‘We Don’t Want You’ taxes

Well the government has let it known that it does not agree with Toyota's statement.

Taxes on auto sector fair and consistent, surprised by sudden dissent: FinMin sources

The government is surprised by the "sudden dissent" from auto companies on the state of taxation, and believes the tax policy for the sector has been fair and consistent for a long time.

The response comes in the wake of criticism from Toyota India, which said high tax rates were hurting the sector, and essentially gave a message to the companies that “we don’t want you”.

In fact, a source in the Finance Ministry said that tax rates have fallen after the introduction of the GST, when compared to the VAT and excise duty rates in the pre-GST era.

“With the introduction of GST, multitude of taxes in the form of excise duty, special excise duties, cesses, VAT, CST etc., gave way to uniform GST. Vehicles, based on their high pre-GST incidence were placed in 28% slab. Passenger vehicles also attract compensation cess ranging from 1% to 22%. However, with compensation cess, the taxes have not gone beyond pre-GST incidences except maybe in few cases that were enjoying certain duty concessions,” another source in the ministry said.

The government sources added that the taxation policy has been consistent for the last three decades now “in the form of allowing foreign investment and incentivizing the domestic manufacturing by providing reasonable protection from imports.”

Subsequently Toyota has also ditched its previous statement.

Toyota Kirloskar Motor (TKM) on Thursday said it remains deeply committed to the Indian market and its national objectives, refuting once again the claims by a senior company official earlier that it would stop further expansion in India due to high taxes. The automaker, which sells models like Innova and Fortuner, said it has firm belief in the core strength of the country's economic growth potential and is fully committed to continually work towards contributing to economic development.

So I guess this matter is closed.
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