[Mounting King]

With the implementation of BS6, and car makers like the VW group and even Maruti discontinuing diesel engines in India, what can we expect in the coming future for luxury cars? Will customers start buying petrol Q7s and Kodiaqs in bigger numbers, or will they go for diesel in other brands? Will Mercedes and BMW focus on BS6 diesels, or will they also stress on petrols? Up until now diesels have dominated the market, main reason being the mileage.Will we see a change in the trend?

[crysisftw]

Well, the diesel thing is almost over now. The revolution started in late 80s when petrol prices were on a steady rise in western markets. In India, the automobile revolution really started in late 90s. People realised that at the cost of noise and smoothness, diesels really were much better than petrols in terms of efficiency, range and (according to some claims) even environmental pollution.

After around 2010 the overall cost of running and maintenance of both the petrols and diesels was roughly equal. This is due to a couple of factors:
1. Initial cost of ownership of almost every diesel is higher than petrol. But petrol is slightly less economical.
2. Prices of diesel and petrol fuel are roughly equal.
3. Maintenance of petrol engines is cheaper.

Since the running and maintenance costs in the long term are roughly equal, people have started realising that buying a new diesel (especially in 2020) doesn't really make a ton of sense, especially given their non-linear power output, noise, harshness and vibrations compared to petrol engines. Couple that with some really nice trends in 3-cylinder 1L turbocharged petrol engines, diesels are losing both market share and interest.

This is the main reason why diesels are being discontinued in smaller segments. It's all about giving the best thing at incredibly narrow margins in order to survive. The same is the driving force behind the luxury segments as well, but there's a catch here. Most luxury brands like to give their customers options, whether they like it or even opt for it, or not, and they can milk much better margins as compared to smaller segments. So while BS6 may be driving out diesels in smaller segments, luxury brands may continue to offer diesel options for a while now.

Anyways, with most of the automobile industry trying to figure out the solution to electric vehicles, and it may come as a sad news for petrolheads, nobody really is bothered about the future of petrol or diesel engines. Advancements are taking place, but not at the same exciting levels as they once were. Yes, diesels are being slowly phased out of consumer automobiles, but then so will petrols be within a couple of decades as everybody is moving to electric vehicles. Once a viable solution to storing electric energy is figured out, it's an almost instantaneous death for internal combustion engines, and with improvements in battery technology and graphene production, that day is not far from now. Makes me both happy and sad.

TL;DR:
1. Diesels have lived their age and will die soon, shortly followed by petrol engines.
2. Luxury brands will most likely continue with diesel engines as options for some time.
3. I'm both happy and sad for the future of automobiles.

[el lobo 6061]

Originally Posted by Mounting King

With the implementation of BS6, and car makers like the VW group and even Maruti discontinuing diesel engines in India

That is incorrect information.

Maruti doesn't have a BS6 compliant diesel engine of its own or from Fiat. On top of that Maruti running campaign to say Diesel are costly; why because we don't have one to sell. Before that bean counters were happy at Suzuki.

VW has 1.6 TDi & 2.0 TDi which use DPF filter to make them BS6 compliant. Given stop & go traffic, plus slow speeds in India, DPF will get clogged requiring frequent regeneration or even warranty claims.

So as to avoid it, do not launch. But there are rumour that VW might launch them.

Diesel engine with Ad-Blue are best. Fill it & drive.

As for luxury cars with Diesels; have a look at abysmal numbers by Audi India because of only Petrol portfolio.

Inline 6 cyl diesel are the best. Better fuel Efficiency, monster torque which is delivered over a wide range.

Mercedes GLS 400d
Inline 6 cyl diesel
330 PS
700 NM
0-100 6.3 sec

[Mounting King]

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

VW has 1.6 TDi & 2.0 TDi which use DPF filter to make them BS6 compliant. Given stop & go traffic, plus slow speeds in India, DPF will get clogged requiring frequent regeneration or even warranty claims.

So as to avoid it, do not launch. But there are rumour that VW might launch them.

A video I had seen on youtube. This person mentions his issues with DPF

https://youtu.be/-bOlDFFhuPM

[el lobo 6061]

Originally Posted by Mounting King

A video I had seen on Youtube. This person mentions his issues with dpf

Have seen this video long back.

Diesel engines less than 2000 cc use DPF whereas 2000 cc or more use Ad-Blue technology.

Ad-Blue is more expensive since you need to have a separate tank space and plumbing within car; leading to higher cost. Which is not possible in smaller cars.

Diesel cars with Ad-Blue are a better choice.

[GTO]

I think that we have seen "peak diesel" and are past it. Not because of EVs which are a long time away from mass adoption, but because diesels have gotten such a bad name & reputation. Diesels themselves are to blame, but so is VW (in a big way), the government (and its flip-flop policies toward diesels) and the stringent BS6 regulations (which are very welcome).

Yes, Maruti will be bringing its 1.5L BS6 diesel, and in some classes, diesel will remain the mainstay. That includes SUVs & MPVs. Answering the thread title, luxury car owners will continue with their affinity for diesels for a wide variety of reasons. Those that don't offer diesels in premium segments (Audi, Lexus) can be seen suffering. Rich dudes love their diesels not just for the economy, but for the tank range, robustness & torque. S-Class? They sell way more turbo-diesels than turbo-petrols. Ditto with all the large luxury SUVs, including Range Rovers.

That said, I don't see luxury car brands continuing to invest heavily in diesels. They'll maintain status quo and make marginal improvements, at best. Yeah, we're definitely past "peak diesel".

Like with most technologies, EV adoption will start at the top. I see diesel luxury car owners moving to electric power rather than petrol power.

[Mounting King]

Originally Posted by GTO

Those that don't offer diesels in premium segments (Audi, Lexus) can be seen suffering.

I wonder if the low sales will eventually force VW to get diesels back. Don’t know what they’re thinking. Even I don’t think the indian market is really willing to go for luxury petrols. Maybe dieselgate had something to do with this.

[YashD]

After owning the C200 and now driving a 320d, I would put my money on diesels eyes closed for the years to come except if I am foraying into the niche for e.g a Cayman and the likes. The reasons are quite simple & am I sure Manufacturers know them well hence BMW or Mercedes won't be discontinuing diesel powertrains any time soon:-

• Mileage - The petrol luxury sedans are major guzzler, irrespective of the money I make, don't have the heart to maintain an every day vehicle with an efficiency of 4 - 5 kmpl. It pinches after a point.

• Range - Extremely sorted! My 3er on highways has given me a range of 1000+ kms and with a mixed driving condition it easily gives me a range of 700 - 800 kms. In City, I am easily getting a range of 500 - 600 kms whereas the C used to do a mere 400 kms with almost 60L of fuel.

• Torque - As GTO pointed out above, the torque, Yes! We have Turbo Petrol and they're somewhat better but then again I like the dirty diesel more. I appreciate that diesel grunt with sudden bursts of power throughout the rev band.

• Maintenance Costs - Almost similar, there isn't much difference in terms of cost when maintaining them hence that slight premium is absolutely worth the money.

• Resale - The Petrol Powertrain doesn't have any resale in the market. The diesel fetches a much higher resale in the market.

• Driver Engagement - I don't know if it's just me but I feel diesel Powertrains to be way more fun than Petrol, in terms of driver engagement, diesel offers you that extra oomph in terms of Power delivery when compared Petrol, for e.g C200 vs C220 or 530i vs 530d, the diesels are simply faster and better to drive.

[lamborghini]

Yes, there is a transition to petrols and I expect it to only increase. That being said, there are several factors at play:
- Running & type of usage : most SUV owners would prefer a diesel SUV simply to reduce the trips to the fuel station + no worries on quality of fuel (as compared to premium turbo petrols). If I'm driving our 328i Mumbai to Mahabaleshwar, I would probably need a refuel before leaving back for Mumbai, but on our C220d I can do a round trip + 150-200kms of city running before hitting a quarter tank. Of course the fuel tank on the Mercedes is bigger which helps but even then the range on a diesel is far superior due to better fuel economy.
That being said for the city runs petrol cars will even out with lower maintenance (no DPF) in the long run. When we replace the A6, a petrol would be first preference.

- Performance : while a Kodiaq with a 2.0 TSi engine will be more fun to drive, as you go up segments - the E350, 530D, end up ruling the roost. Of course it's now changing with the 330i, X5 40i, etc. and I hope it continues into other segments as well (540i for starters would be swell!).

- Variant configurations : for the longest time the diesels were what most buyers opted for due to higher pricing of petrol variants - even in the 7/S segments! Again, its slowly changing with the 330i Sport, C200s, etc.

- Reducing difference in fuel pricing

Our garage which consisted of only diesels for the longest time (performance / FE depending on the vehicle and usage were key drivers), has slowly transformed into a more even playing ground with 2 of our last 5 additions being petrols - and going ahead I expect it to even out even more and wouldn't be surprised if petrols ended up leading the ratio.
But yes, 2 diesels will always be in the garage purely for long distance running.

[dark.knight]

Petrols were praised to the moon when they were in multiples of litres.. not the straw sipping lightweight aluminum impotent ones made today.

For example, the i20 or Polo category cars need 1.4/1.5 petrols with 120+ hp to have grunt across all gears with less effort, cars like entry sedans need 1.8 litre engines with 140+ hp, and D segments need 2 plus litre engines with 160+ hp, lux sedans must start at 3L, all NA engines I'm writing about.

Rather than turbo petrols, I'd much prefer diesels, they have a truly powerful feel with locomotive pull and good weight to keep the car planted. Of course there will be poor refinement (unless we're buying Korean diesels) but out on and open road the diesel is truly the mile muncher, if anyone drove the Elite i20 petrol and diesel, its like 2 completely different cars altogether.. one a slow, breathless, asthmatic car that needs to be pushed and pushed for even city driving, and the other a honed long distance runner with incredibly stable feel and massive torque.

[Ashish0485]

I have owned 5 cars (not including Parents' and extended family) to date, the first 4 being petrol. The latest acquisition is BMW 320d G20, also happens to be my first diesel car.

Here's my take:
In the luxury segment, diesels will continue to dominate for atleast 5 more years.

1) The primary reason is they give maximum bang for the buck - even the ones who buy luxury cars want to keep the running expenditure low (to counterbalance high maintenance) and that's what diesel offers with comparable and in some segments better performance than their petrol counterparts.

2) The luxury segment diesels don't feel like diesel. The first time I test drove the 320d, the first thought that came to mind was: is it the 320d or the 330i? because the acceleration characteristics are very similar to a petrol. I rechecked with the SA. This happened to me inspite of having a powerful petrol car in the garage i.e. Skoda Octavia vRS230.

3) Something specific and exclusive to the luxury segment is the following: the discounts (by dealers as well as manufacturers) on diesel cars have been significantly greater than petrol cars.

4) Till now, the number of diesel trims/variants available were more than the petrol ones. Therefore, more choice for the consumer. This can change though.

5) Luxury diesel cars retain their value (true till now) better than petrol ones.

[Researcher]

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

Diesel engines less than 2000 cc use DPF whereas 2000 cc or more use Ad-Blue technology.
Ad-Blue is more expensive since you need to have a separate tank space and plumbing within car; leading to higher cost. Which is not possible in smaller cars.
Diesel cars with Ad-Blue are a better choice.

Diesel engines with capacity of 2000cc and thereabouts also have a DPF in addition to the Ad-Blue technology (more commonly called Selective Catalytic Reduction or SCR). So the issues will remain with these engines as well. Below is the snap from the Harrier BS6 user manual.

Lesser capacity engines, probably due to their size, still have emissions within the BS6 limits with the DPF only and no Ad-Blue.

Although DPFs have been problematic world-wide, India specific long-term issues on BS6 fuel are yet to surface as both usage and sales have been low due to the lockdown apart from a few early adopters of the Mercedes Benz BS6 diesel cars in NCR last year. Only time will tell how problematic and expensive the addition of DPFs will be. A friend in the automotive sector also tells me that it is not easy to drive without a fully functioning DPF as it will keep throwing errors and ultimately the vehicle will not start if the issues are not addressed timely as per system interlocks for BS6 norms adherence.

Adding the photo below for the cost of a DPF for a VW group vehicle from Boodmo (I am guessing probably a 3.0 diesel Phaeton as per further digging). It seems quite expensive even for the Phaeton, especially for long-term use or a pre-owned purchase of a luxury diesel. I am unable to find any proper data on prices for other cars, so others may shed a light into it:

[GTO]

Another problem with the petrols is that if:

- It's a powerful petrol

OR

- In a large sedan

OR

- In a big SUV

A petrol's fuel economy is simply unacceptable. With large European SUVs, I have seen FE of 2 - 3 kmpl, where a turbo-diesel would give 6 kmpl. Even with a 90L tank, you are talking of a ~250 vs 540 km driving range. 250 km is way too short and filling up so often is inconvenient / pinches the wallet more frequently.

In my experience, diesel luxury cars sell faster & at a higher price.

[Anand123]

I believe the resale value of used luxury cars is still in favour of diesel cars in most parts of the country (maybe except Delhi). I guess a Range Rover with 3.0 V6 diesel engine would fetch more price than one with the 5.0L V8 Supercharged petrol engine. Considering the high depreciation of petrol variants, the diesel version would continue to have more takers.

[RSR]

Originally Posted by Researcher

Lesser capacity engines, probably due to their size, still have emissions within the BS6 limits with the DPF only and no Ad-Blue.

Smaller capacity engines (usually <= 1500cc) also use a Lean NOx Trap (LNT) in addition to DPF to reduce NOx emissions, in place of the SCR system on larger engines that require diesel exhaust fluid/aqueous urea/AdBlue.

Basically, in order to meet the stringent Euro6/BS6 norms for dirty diesels, one needs:

1) DPF + SCR for larger capacity engines (usually > 1500cc)

or

2) DPF + LNT for smaller capacity engines (usually <= 1500cc)

An LNT is a more compact, lower cost alternative to SCR to reduce NOx emissions and meet BS6 norms. An LNT is not as effective as SCR, but it'll do for smaller capacity diesels, for now. Whenever RDE norms are implemented, LNTs will be replaced by SCR systems even in small capacity diesels.

Edit: The price tag for the DPF on that Volkswagen is quite shocking!