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Old 13th October 2020, 10:57   #31
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

I understand the frustration of OP, specially since its a Honda. But these problems of-late are with all brands, and have more to do with dealers and the kind of people involved. Heck, I would say, its not just with cars, even with white goods like Washing machines, Refrigerators etc.

Our Linea had a gear shifting problem, the FIAT service told us to replace the entire gearbox, clutch-plate, slave cylinder etc. All that would cost a bomb, so took her to an FNG and he changed only the clutch-plate with the bearing and the car was running fine again. Total cost: just about 8000 Rs including labor.

My brothers Santro had an issue where some specific fuses were blowing for no reason. Hyundai asked him to replace the entire wiring in the car. The FNG took some time but found that one of the wires connected to the fog lamps was causing a short circuit in certain circumstances (The fog lamps were fitted from some local shop who had done a bad job). He just removed the wires completely and the car has been running perfectly fine for two years now.

My Honda Brio, serviced twice by Crystal Honda Pune had a habit of inflating bill by doing some unnecessary work. Since I knew about this earlier, I would ask them not to do anything unwanted before-hand and the would oblige. I had a short stint with the Brio but none of the service centers in Bengaluru or Pune could diagnose the issue of car's weak throttle response at low rpms and rpms rising by a fair amount whenever clutch was pressed. All said that its normal, although I never had any such issues with any other car. Never bothered to go deep as I knew I was going to sell her.

A friend's Ford Figo had engine stalling problems, Ford service told him to get engine overhauled. I showed him the team-bhp thread regarding faulty fuel injectors and told him to fight it out. They acknowledged and changed all fuel injectors with a bill of 16k, they initially quoted about one lakh INR.

Sadly, we live in those times where the customer is more knowledgeable than the seller in most cases. The key is to make such an impression that the other person knows you are not going to take any non-sense and can really create problems for him if things go south.

If Honda Service guy says there is a problem with the steering just by hearing it, I would probably drive him nuts by asking him to explain everything in detail and questioning every single point he raised
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Old 13th October 2020, 11:00   #32
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Till 2015, we always had 1 Honda in the family. We are planning a replacement for the Sunny next year. Budget is anywhere between 10 - 30 lakhs. Not a single Honda is on the shortlist.

- Missing segments - in a market that is so obsessed with crossovers, why aren't there any more Hondas? Doesn't Honda have anything to fight the Creta / Seltos which do 20,000 units a month?

I feel Hyundai & Kia today have taken over Honda's earlier position of appeal + tech + quality + fun to drive. Yes, you read the last part right. Take the Creta or Seltos turbo-petrols on the highway, then come back and tell me how it left you grinning.
Have been a huge Honda fan for 20 years and the saddest part for me was Honda's abdication of its performance, quality and classy design roots.

While most brands strive to go upmarket - Honda's India story over the last 7-8 year, should be made into a case study on how to successfully take a brand down market and destroy gold plated nameplates like the City, Accord, Civic and CR-V.

The new City had to be innovative and cutting-edge if it was to attract us sedan and Honda fans back to the brand - but it is merely a good car, when it needed to be a great one.

While speaking about the HR-V to a gentleman from one of the Honda dealerships recently- I asked him the reason for Honda not bringing it to India?

He said that Honda had shown the HR-V to dealers sometime last year and said it would be sold at a price point between the Civic and CR-V

He said the dealers requested Honda not to launch the car and they would manage without it

The HR-V would have probably been a fair success even at approx 22-24L OTR BLR but a flop at the prices Honda wanted to sell it at.

It is also quite evident now, that Honda made a mistake bringing the dull as dishwater Civic back to the market and should instead have focussed all their energies on the HR-V which would have stood a better chance, as in many ways it was perfect for Honda's urban customers and a natural upgrade for existing City customers. HR-V is after all a very succesful and popular model in SE Asia, even today, despite its age.
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Old 13th October 2020, 11:01   #33
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

Am new to Honda car ownership but would still like to chip in my views.
Got a used 4th Gen City that sips petrol. Sips because its efficiency at regular speeds is not much off than what my Swift with K12 delivered. All while providing better performance and quicker acceleration. Full marks to its engine, a domain where Honda was once the champ and I guess it still is on podium. But thats all the car has got to offer.

Honda could have or rather should have put in more effort for better suspension tuning, even Ciaz has better balance and doesnt seem as unstable as my City. Lights are terrible. My little humble swift was better than Honda in two regards : Lights and stability. Build quality is Ok in isolation, but with rivals getting an edge, Honda is left behind. Verna, despite its obvious lack of room at rear, feels more cohesive effort, better built, engineered and executed. Have to admit that Verna also rides better and is more stable than City.

Jazz/WR-V are again average, they dont get rear adjustable headrests and Jazz I think lost "magic seats" as a standard feature. While I do rate Jazz a step above Maruti and Hyundai contemporaries, I expect more from Honda when the asking price is factored in. The only product that still offers some value is Amaze and that too because of rivals that arent exactly as rounded. Diesel plus CVT combination is a good stroke, but why Honda stops at that is unknown to us all. 2005 Baleno 1.6 did all things as good or better than my 2014 City, except for braking and crash safety I guess.

Honda needs to get away from "Low Volume High Margin" strategy, plus get a rival of Creta. Hyundai has single handedly captured that market while others watched (add Toyota to this list also). I feel that Tata and M&M are making more efforts despite setbacks than what Honda is doing. Honda is on its last leg I guess in India. When the current Amaze owner want to upgrade, they will have option of Verna which is a step better than City in my view. Hyundai feels better than Honda, and this alone wins buyers in that price bracket. Right now, Honda isnt' VFM, nor dominant in product quality and feel.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 13th October 2020 at 11:03.
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Old 13th October 2020, 11:02   #34
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

I have owned three Hondas in the past.

An 8 year used manual accord that turned out to be a lemon. (bought and sold around 2010 or thereabouts).

A 2009 Civic A/T and City A/T, which stayed with us for 7 yrs (65,000 kms) and 8 years and 106,000 kms respectively. Both were brilliantly engineered, a joy to drive (relative to its segment for City) and honestly I had a tough time letting them go.

Honda today has completely lost the plot unfortunately.

1. Build quality: Current Hondas are really very mediocre in their build, don't age well (almost Maruti like) and have too many cheap cost cut looking parts. The old Jazz with magic seats was actually a better built product than its later edition. Same for the CR-V.

2. Engines: At one time, you could buy a Honda just for the engines it would offer in its class. Today if I were to buy either of the Civic or CR-V, it would be "despite" its engine. They are offering completely underwhelming engines, not offering sufficient choice of engine and tranny - beat this - the Amaze can be had with diesel or petrol automatic but not so with the City. Hyundai (and Kia) on the other hand carpet bomb the market with every conceivable engine / tranny combo that a customer could desire.

3. After sales: Anecdotally, I hear that this has plummeted too. And its no surprise. When sales start flagging dealers try to make a quick buck through service. Bad service reputations leads to further flagging sales (lack of appeal of the product per se notwithstanding).


Today, if I had to consider any vehicle, I would either have to convince myself to plonk big money on a BMW, or get a German built car and live with the risk of VW / Skoda, or finally if I didn't want to break the bank, buy a Hyundai / Kia for the best quality experience.

Honestly, I am waiting for Kia / Hyundai / MG and the likes to plaster Toyota / whatever is even left of Honda. They have simply taken our market for granted for far too long. For that matter even Tata which is really making an honest to goodness effort with its new lineup. If only they could show some enthusiasm in their sales team. I asked a Tata service rep to call me when his Harrier AT comes from wash in 40 - 50 mins as per him so I can drop in for a test drive (this is after leaving my number two days before and categorically asking him to call - he never did so I called him). He never called me. The guy does not have even a 1 hr recall to call a customer back for a test drive when I told him I live 5 mins away and will come over once he calls me and confirms the car is back from wash.

Today, the only mainstream brands I would pick a Honda over are Maruti and perhaps Mahindra (of course I would not touch Nissan / Renault / Datsun etc).

I would more readily buy a Tata (Harrier) than a Honda (CR-V). I would buy any of Kia / Hyundai / even MG in a heartbeat over a Honda. I would even take my chances with a VW / Skoda over a Honda.

These are the making of obituaries. A once premium brand is mostly left to being a two car wonder: City and Amaze. And with the market's craze for competing cross overs, that is too dodgy a place to operate from if they have any mid to long term ambition.

Last edited by Axe77 : 13th October 2020 at 11:06.
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Old 13th October 2020, 11:04   #35
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

While city is considered the default choice in petrol sedan category, I went against the norm and bought a Hyundai Verna 1.6 SX last year. I experienced that the verna was the better built one and had more features for the ~11 lakh variant. Plus the Hyundai folks were prompt and enthusiastic to sell their car.

People do ask me often that why didn't you go with the vtec though. I wonder if the city is just riding on it's past success.
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Old 13th October 2020, 11:05   #36
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

I had posted my experience of an Honda showroom in the thread on interior revamp of Honda showrooms.
The link is here (Honda showrooms to get a major revamp)

Quoting the post here since its in tune with the sentiments here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arijitkanrar View Post
Had been to a Honda showroom once for evaluating the WRV for my friend.
We had evaluated the EcoSport before that so we were comparing against that with the SA.
Noticed a particular level of arrogance in the SA that after a point became really annoying.
He was simply refusing to do a objective comparison. All through the 30min I spent there I only heard "Honda is Honda saar. Honda is premium product".
I asked what is premium about Honda cars that other cars lack? He just repeats.
On aspects WRV is better than EcoSport (for e.g. interior space, sunroof etc.), he had arguments like you'll get more space, you'll get sunroof. For everything else his only argument was Honda is better car.

On EcoSport he kept repeating the following lines in no particular order
"EcoSport has lot of issues in market"
"EcoSport has too much maintenance problem etc"
"EcoSport is costly to maintain"
"Ford design is bad saar"
"Honda has done research saar"
"Honda is japanese quality saar"

It was as if he was told to not to listen to any criticism of Honda and just keep harking about Honda till the customer gives in and buys.

Got frustrated and was leaving when he asks "Saar, you will book today or tomorrow saar?"
My reply: "Let me book EcoSport first!"

If this is the experience one gets at the showroom, believe me you wont even see the interior decor! No amount of revamp can fix that!
And its not just the 4-wheelers.
I've seen my office colleagues struggle with their Activas. Frequent brake wire cuts, handlebar becoming loose, starting issues and what not.

Honda is just not the Honda of yore. The problem is that Honda doesn't seem to realize that and stubbornly just rests on its past laurels.
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Old 13th October 2020, 11:58   #37
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

Walk into a Honda ASS with an Old Honda and you are treated with utmost disgust. Minimum 30 mins waiting before someone attends you, not too keen to undertake repairs, no OTC sale of spares and “Pay full advance for the spares and bring back the car when the part arrives.”

The only exception for me has been Arya Honda Sewree who used to call me to service my car every 3 months, would offer pick up and Drop without a fuss and do the routine service extremely well. (I was getting my car serviced from a workshop based in Sewree while I stay in Thane). They were prompt on poor feedback too. However, diagnosing simple problems for them seemed to be a challenge. A simple squeak from the clutch master cylinder and knocking sound during breaking took 3 visits just to explain. (they offered to pick up the car twice and requested me to bring the car 3rd time). To top it up, they said the whole clutch set and break lines will need inspection to ascertain which parts to be changed. An FNG resolved both the problem in 6 hours straight! That was my last visit to any Honda ASS

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadinMumbai View Post

Episode two- I took my Honda City (2012) for routine servicing- 70K. The Service Associate assigned to me promptly got in the car and started playing with the steering wheel. Almost like a laser guided missile he went straight for the steering . It felt strange that he honed in on a problem like he could smell it out. No test drive, no nothing. He made several notations on the service sheet. And told me he could hear the EPS motor. I couldn’t hear any such thing, but maybe in my old age I am going deaf. He is, after all, a Honda guy. Later in the day the guy called to give me his estimate for the service- Rs. 1,15,000. He listed changing the EPS motor and assembly, changing all four shock absorbers and engine housings. Shocked, I asked him to simply change the oil and filter and return the car. I decided to take a second opinion. Later I took the car to the same local guy who had fixed my leaky roof- he took a long drive in the car and told me- there is nothing wrong with the EPS motor or the shock absorbers, why do you want to change them?
Exact same scenario faced by me a few years back. Have shared my experience here in point no.5 of my post:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...add-ons-4.html (Incentives that service advisors receive for upselling you unnecessary add-ons)

I too faced the rain water seepage in my 2011 Jazz and the suspect was the rusted roof channel but the problem further aggravated with the rusting proceeding to the Windshield frame which ultimately led to the cracking of the Windshield.

While I tried to remove the water from the front passenger floor pan, I realised that it was nearly impossible to do so without a wet suction vacuum cleaner. I went to a friendly interior cleaner who said that mine was the 4th Honda to visit him for the same job since morning. Saw 2 Honda Citys being dried out

My only suggestion for the Brio would be to get it dried ASAP and find a covered parking till the repairs aren’t done. Don’t delay the repairs either. I learnt it the hard way that A stitch in time saves nine. Sharing some pictures to show the extent of the rust damage Is it time to move on from brand Honda?-d8ffc66a347f47c39250649315adc170.jpeg

Is it time to move on from brand Honda?-e07114f5953a4e7d9404852d5080d71a.jpeg

Is it time to move on from brand Honda?-8ebbbcfe469d43e5b80d34aee6f78358.jpeg

Is it time to move on from brand Honda?-48c16a4f7ca343df94ffd6f38603f9d6.jpeg
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Old 13th October 2020, 12:03   #38
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arijitkanrar View Post
All through the 30min I spent there I only heard "Honda is Honda saar. Honda is premium product".
I heard the exact same thing when I went in to check out the Jazz while comparing it to the Polo. "Honda is Honda saar, it is reliable, VW is not". I then said that VW is giving me a substantial discount on the Polo, can you match it? He said "They're giving that because the cars are not selling saar". As if the Jazz is! In the latest sales figures, Polo has sold almost twice as much as the Jazz.
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Old 13th October 2020, 12:05   #39
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

The parent company Honda Japan has been facing a lot of headwinds which has also impacted their India business.

One, around quality issues which has squeezed their operating margin globally to 2-3%. Second they have a lot of regional complexity in terms of model portfolio. Third Takata airbag failure squeezed significant budget for warranty claims and repair.

Hence, Honda India has been unable to allocate more budget to R&D and launch models. There is an overhaul expected globally with the management changes but their focus is going to be more on electric models. Their short term future in India at least does seem bleak.

Source:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...-seizes-wheel/

Last edited by sid_deb : 13th October 2020 at 12:08.
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Old 13th October 2020, 12:09   #40
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

Unfortunately, very true. I bought my City in 2014. Service quality has come down drastically. I get much better service for my Tiago. A couple of years back, had given my car for servicing and I get a call from the service center after a few hours asking me for my insurance details. When asked why they needed the details, the guy sheepishly tells me that they had an accident while moving the car inside the servicing area and the damage is almost Rs 70K!!. I refused to provide any insurance details and did not agree to use my insurance to claim though the service advisor was pleading with me!!. In the end, they repaired the damages.
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Old 13th October 2020, 12:18   #41
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

Wow, this thread is completely in line with what I, a repeat Honda customer (Brio -> City) have been feeling offlate! While I'm very happy and satisfied with my 2017 City CVT (the one in the image used for this thread ) it's the aftersales and service that seems to be going down for me.

I'm currently waiting for replacement of the ShittyPad ( or Digipad is it?) display that was registered about 45 days ago and approved 30 days ago. Part is apparantly shipped (from god knows where) and yet to arrive No updates from dealer unless I call and dcdc then they can't provide an ETA. Honda One2One is a joke really. They simply throw you back to the dealer

In comparison, just 3 years ago, on my erstwhile Brio, the brake booster was replaced under warranty amd despite the part being available in stock with only one dealer somewhere in MP, the whole thing was done and dusted in about 2 weeks! Although later the cause of vacuum leak was found to be a leaking one way valve, the service and the rep were very prompt and kept me updated always. It's the same service centre today ( Whitefield Honda) but the rep is different. Wonder how much that contributes.
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Old 13th October 2020, 12:19   #42
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

I’ve had a bad experience servicing my Honda Amaze with Capital Honda Chennai (bad paint job) I stopped visiting them hence forth. However my service experience with Sundaram Honda Madurai and Chennai (owned by TVS Group) is excellent, the service advisor suggests things like “clutch is still good, cant run a 20k km more, you needn’t change”; and he remembers my car’s status even after 8 months, he recalls saying that “last time we discussed to do it after a couple of months” also they clean the AC vents thoroughly (without charging extra) and clean the alloys perfectly on the way out of the service bay, they have deployed a gentleman for that task.

But MASS doesn’t do that for my SCross; I regret buying my second car from MSIL, should have gone for WRV is what I regret. 7 years old still Amaze is holding up well with amazing FE, and good drivability. Hence I made an inference that service quality is dealer specific.
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Old 13th October 2020, 12:21   #43
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NiInJa View Post
I had a short stint with the Brio but none of the service centers in Bengaluru or Pune could diagnose the issue of car's weak throttle response at low rpms and rpms rising by a fair amount whenever clutch was pressed. All said that its normal, although I never had any such issues with any other car. Never bothered to go deep as I knew I was going to sell her.



If Honda Service guy says there is a problem with the steering just by hearing it, I would probably drive him nuts by asking him to explain everything in detail and questioning every single point he raised
The Brio has an issue in 2nd gear. It just doesn’t pick up from low RPMs. It’s a very strange phenomenon because this is restricted only to the 2nd gear. No other car I’ve had, including the Premier Padmini, has had such a poor 2nd gear. But I have learnt to downshift to 1st gear at the slightest sign of slowing traffic and it works out okay.

On the service guy- I normally trust the SA. Unlike many people here I am not an enthusiast and don’t get involved too deeply, I don’t have the skills or knowledge to be honest. I expect the SA, he has been trained by Honda after all, to bring some integrity to the table.
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Old 13th October 2020, 12:30   #44
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

I think the sun is setting for Japanese car manufacturers here. Suzuki is holding the fort due to their product portfolio and their cost effectiveness and mental association with cheap trouble free first set of wheels.

Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Isuzu & Nissan are disregarding market tastes and just pushing lack lustre and out dated badge engineered products. It's no wonder the market is gravitating towards the Korean brands like Hyundai and Kia who have great build and features for similar money. Toyota the leader of the pack is resting on past laurels and the strong brand recall of the Innova which has now an extremely bloated price. Lexus is dead. Fortuner doesn't have as many takers. LC, Prado, Camry & Vellfire woefully over priced. The best toyotas are the pre owned ones sadly. Their cash registers still ring due to the cab segment buying etios and innovas, and that doesn't motivate them enough to innovate for the passenger car segment.

Present anti chinese sentiments prevent MG from taking off but one can see the effort being taken to establish a brand, although im not personally a fan of their products. Find them gimmicky and tacky (internet inside ?)

The halo of japanese engineering and the feel of Japanese manuals too is dying out. Give it some time for hyundai to have a dealer & service network as strong as suzuki (its only USP) and watch them take the crown.

Disappointed not just with brand Honda, but with the arrogance of the Japanese higher ups thinking this "third world" will lap up any garbage they throw at us.
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Old 13th October 2020, 12:32   #45
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Re: Is it time to move on from brand Honda?

Always used the same authorized workshop to get our Honda Jazz serviced. This was also the place we bought the car from. Service was acceptable until recently.

A year back when I asked for brake pad change, they billed for disc polish but I could clearly see brake pad lines on the disc. As usual, this was a home pick-up / delivery service, so I wasn't there in person while the job was done. The service advisor told me that it's impossible that the disc is not polished as he got it done under his eyes! I really doubted that as many workshops don't polish discs in house but I left it at that. Maybe they just did a bad job?

Recently I booked a service cum aircon investigation. Firstly, somehow my number was shared amongst two dealerships and I received multiple calls from both dealerships trying to win my business. Apparently, the dealership had split up into two and my contact details were shared with both. After somehow managing to ward off one, i sent the car to them through the pick up service. I was billed for aircon service (5k+) before being told the compressor needs to be replaced. They said they couldn't have known that the compressor needs replacement (50k+) before servicing the aircon. At this point, I just paid for the aircon service, gave up on the Honda workshop and am now looking for a professional workshop for the almost 10yr old Jazz.
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