[anb]

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

I'd still disagree with you since my line of work allows me to experience the actual application of ABS & ESP systems where we test under all situations including the frozen lakes in Sweden !

ABS if calibrated properly will reduce braking distance under all situations.

This video shows examples of braking distances with and without ABS under different conditions. https://Youtu.be/brttLXw-lt4

Please go through this test track study.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...t4finalrpt.pdf

[ChoosetoCruze]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

this is what I could find in the ABS unit of my Seltos, attaching the image below. Old gen Creta ABS was supplied by Georgia based Mando America Corporation

let's not say if a team BHP member has not reported or experienced it, the issue doesn't exist at all.

Come on, let's not add the ifs and buts here. This is from the horse's mouth.

Brakes should perform the function of stopping the car, no matter what the driving conditions or driving habits are.

It’s cute to see the defence mechanism kick in with full force, from people who are living in denial about the supposedly not frequent enough failures, which you have reported using evidence, not fiction.

It all makes total sense now! A few lives being lost here & there is a part & parcel of life in India. Who cares if a few unfortunate souls get injured or worse, die? The vast majority have never faced any problem so the rest be damned. After all, none of the other vehicles from the group have suffered similar issues before, right?!

Thanks for sharing the pic of your ABS module. I see the part number in your Seltos (non ESC equipped) is 58900-Q6500. For the old Creta, the part number for non ESC equipped vehicles is 58920-A0930 & for ESC equipped vehicles is 58920-A0980. I’m pretty sure the vendor for all Hyundai/Kia vehicles in India is Mando (also verified by another member in an earlier post) as the first three digits of the ABS/ESC part number 589 appears in all Mando hydraulic pumps sold worldwide.

The part numbers for the old Creta can verified here - https://oriparts.com/8/198/1386/462332#item_9939051

I’ve not yet come across the ABS/ESC part number of the new Creta, however, I haven’t come across any evidence showing Hyundai having changed vendors (this is not to say that they have/haven’t).

It’s quite appalling that the manufacturer has chosen to resort to mansplaining, much like some ardent followers on this forum.

Originally Posted by jetsetgo08

This thread has nothing to do with rooting for the underdogs or calling for nationalism. All this thread does is just 'Call a Spade a Spade'. So, the next time this feedback would be passed over to the prospective owners, who would eventually take the call.

This! Is what it’s all about. Safety is ALWAYS the number 1 priority. NO COMPROMISES.

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

..
ABS if calibrated properly will reduce braking distance under all situations....

I don't know about "lab" conditions but i have had first hand experience driving mass produced hatchbacks with ABS and without ABS in slippery conditions and on uneven surfaces. I can say for sure when ABS kicked in these circumstances it indeed increased braking distance and made the car more difficult to control. So much so that when i am driving an ABS equipped car on uneven roads with loose dirt i am extra careful and keep more distance from the car in front.

[dksv]

I was probably one of the first to report this issue on the 1.5L NA MT. Here is the post from 9 months ago.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post4732139 (Kia Seltos : Official Review)

Here is the ASC response:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post4732941 (Kia Seltos : Official Review)

I have changed my driving habits since that incident and the problem has never recurred. So I can say I “feel” safer. I don’t know what else I can do.

This is how I changed:
1. Be pro-active rather than being reactive, in terms of braking
2. No more clutch first before normal braking
3. Clutch first before panic braking only
4. Never pump brakes, not even twice in quick succession
5. Maintain slightly higher RPMs in low speeds
6. Be ready subconsciously to apply hand brake if all else fails

[ChoosetoCruze]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

This is exactly what the Kia technician told the owner when he reported back the latest instance of his brake failing, just few days back.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

You do use up all the vacuum of the booster, so it would feel as if the peddle hardens up.

I’m sure this will interest some of you. A link to the relevant section of the Creta’s service manual - http://www.hcrmangs.com/troubleshooting-535.html

Also, a screenshot showing you what the Hyundai (and I’m sure Kia) technician sees on his computer screen when diagnosing this very issue. The relevant failure mode highlighted in red..

Originally Posted by dksv

I don’t know what else I can do.

What a fantastic way to enjoy your brand new toy. NOT.

Originally Posted by sachinayak

Sometimes, I think, on an otherwise unbiased forum, we may be showing signs of unconscious bias.

Spot on mate, SPOT ON!

[RocketRaccoon]

I have booked the Creta SX(MT)[P]. But now, after going through this thread and others related to similar issues on the older gen Creta, it seems that Hyundai KIA have not done a proper RCA to fix this issue. I am honestly getting second thoughts on the Creta. There's no way that I am paying 15 big ones with a possible brake failure demon on my back. Keen to know from Creta 2020 owners if they have faced similar issues (though it might be too early to ask).

[sachinayak]

Originally Posted by dksv

This is how I changed:
1. Be pro-active rather than being reactive, in terms of braking
2. No more clutch first before normal braking
3. Clutch first before panic braking only
4. Never pump brakes, not even twice in quick succession
5. Maintain slightly higher RPMs in low speeds
6. Be ready subconsciously to apply hand brake if all else fails

WOW. Its almost like you are driving in perpetual fear after spending your hard earned money on a "premium" SUV.

A couple of decades back, Tata Motors (during their Indica/Indigo days) left such a scar with their product and service reliability that even today in our official reviews we still never fail to mention

• Concerns over niggles & long-term reliability associated with Tata cars
...
• Tata's after-sales service quality is a hit or miss. Remains a gamble

And in the Seltos official review we get this

A+ brakes as well

Now, I have had no knowledge around this plaguing issue with Hyundai (and now Kia) cars prior to the "Pre-owned car of the week" series when I saw comments on both the Hyundai Elite i20 and Hyundai Creta around the poor braking associated with both vehicles and comments on how it was a deal breaker (or should I say "deal braker") for many. Now we have this thread.

Sometimes, I think, on an otherwise unbiased forum, we may be showing signs of unconscious bias.

[saisree]

With all that 1000’s of kilometres of test driving the car in various terrains before the actual launch, wouldn’t those drivers encounter the same issue? Brake setups are basic and generally don’t change between the pre production and the actual deliveries right?

A corner case software bug in the ABS module not reproducible easily causing a bleak chance of fixing this issue for both Hyundai and KIA.

[Utham123]

This is a scary proposition to say the least. I have had a few near misses on roads in the past. Ever since I read this post it unsettles me to think that something so fundamental like brakes can go wrong in modern cars.

I used to drive my friend's i20 (2012 model) quite regularly at one point in time. Hyundai's braking always made me cautious because of the way brakes reacted when sudden stopping was required. On the contary, my cousin's S-cross had good breaking characteristics even during hard stops.

I attributed this difference to my lack of adapatibiliy to different braking system at the time, but, this thread makes me feel different now.

[Godzilla]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

Hello Naveen, Both the cars in question are Feb'20 make, both NA petrol - one a 6 MT and other an IVT. Details as below.




In fact bhpian a4anurag reached out today morning on this and this is what I could find in the ABS unit of my Seltos, attaching the image below. Old gen Creta ABS was supplied by Georgia based Mando America Corporation as shared by Anurag. I guess he has some findings to add on here.

Attachment 2069755



Hello Stribog, These aren't any unknown elements. Both owners are known to me and each word mentioning the issue was written after speaking to them extensively. Both are pretty experienced drivers and using cars for ten years or so. Moreover, the brake hardening issue cropped up when Kia service team were test driving the car upon receiving the complaint. The owner was also in the car then. Kia acknowledged the issue and that's when they did all kinds of testing and trouble shooting and later changed the brake booster. All details are mentioned in the first post of this thread. The VIN numbers of cars are with me. One can always check the job card entries and service records of these cars and the question of these accounts coming from unknown sources are unfounded, if I may say so. I suppose, I need to be on top of the facts when I air a concern through an esteemed forum like team BHP. Hope i've not faltered on that count.



I was surprised too as no one has reported such experiences on Seltos thread. Also let's not say if a team BHP member has not reported or experienced it, the issue doesn't exist at all. It could well have taken place outside of our forum and it's just that we're not privy to it. I've seen FB posts on this as well. I'm pretty sure there are similar cases reported outside of this forum and Kia must be already aware of it.




He was doing 60 kmph on cruise in 6 th gear as mentioned in my post. Being a NA petrol, guess that's very much possible. Come on, let's not add the ifs and buts here. This is from the horse's mouth. Let's not say how there wasn't anyone on the road and he could he get a free way etc . The crux of the matter is the brakes failed, with traffic around or otherwise. Brakes should perform the function of stopping the car, no matter what the driving conditions or driving habits are. Also note, all these issues were faced on smooth roads when they were trying to brake normally.

There is a company is UK who fixes ABS modules. There is some really interesting info on their websites. Another thing is they have a known ABS issue with Hyundai Tucson with similar part number. Please see the screen shots. I am not suggesting to go for them, it is merely a third party option if there is no resolution from Kia.

https://www.ecutesting.com/

[Godzilla]

Originally Posted by ssenhyd

Can you backup this with any published paper or article from a reputable journal or auto magazine?

ABS is designed to provide braking in the lowest distance on loose gravely surfaces by avoiding wheel lockup. Your statement completely defeats the purpose of ABS and is contrary to facts

Purpose is ABS primarily is not shorter braking distance, it is avoid lateral movement of the car due to wheels locking under heavy braking. Therefore ensure safe slowing down of the vehicle. Where do you find your facts? See the video for visual proof .

https://youtu.be/YQ6GJHVS_lM

[ssenhyd]

Originally Posted by Godzilla

Purpose is ABS primarily is not shorter braking distance, it is avoid lateral movement of the car due to wheels locking under heavy braking. Therefore ensure safe slowing down of the vehicle. Where do you find your facts? See the video for visual proof .


https://Youtu.be/YQ6GJHVS_lM

Thanks! I stand corrected!

[swarnava.ch]

Originally Posted by ChoosetoCruze

It’s cute to see the defence mechanism kick in with full force, from people who are living in denial about the supposedly not frequent enough failures, which you have reported using evidence, not fiction.

I loved your summary and your thoughts are in line with what I would have liked to post as well.

On this forum, I would expect a more open minded receipt of an owner who faces a problem. This is the typical social media behaviour.
Post on any car owner group I am having so and so problem. Every one of those guys will jump in - "I have driven xxx kms and I have not faced this problem" or better "It may be a problem with you or the way you are driving".

It does not matter how many cars have been sold, even if one person faces an issue, I would only expect for a Root Cause Analysis by the car manufacturer / Service Centre. I am not asking for car replacement or Brand persecution that the brand is bad, only request is for a genuine RCA and an acknowledgement of the issue. It does not matter when an owner buys 6Lakhs car or 60 Lakhs car, both want it to function with what it has promised. Features and Bling may vary for the segments, but the expectation of trouble free ownership is always there.

Now such problems with Brakes are very difficult to reproduce in a service centre on a test drive so they will definitely take time to resolve. However such recurring brake issues from multiple owners definitely needs a more thorough investigation

Anyways recently bought a Hyundai and at the very same time the original post for Hyundai issues came up. I am always conscious about these issues at the back of my mind.

[IP_Man]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

So apperently, a new brake booster fixed the problem of the brakes not working at all? Can somebody shed some light on this how that could be possible?

Jeroen

I don't think this is a problem of brake-booster. Let's assume that brake-booster i.e. vacuum fail completely, still brake should apply by pressing them hard. But, all the reports points brake being completely inoperative and they had to used hand brake to bring car to halt.

AFAIK, ABS works by rapid ON/OFF action of the electrically operated hydraulic valve that allows or stop brake fluid pressure to do the braking operation.

Let's imagine that all ABS brake valve are in OFF state. What will happen? First, no braking operation. Second, brake pedal would becomes become hard as brake fluid pressure is not released.

Hence IMO, it is ABS system malfunction. Engine vacuum has no role in this catastrophic brake failure.

[omzworld]

Thank you for the post. I had strongly recommended Seltos to a friend few weeks back, immediately called him to inform about this potential hazard. Thankfully he went with my other recommendation and had already booked a Skoda Rapid Rider + automatic. Had a sigh of relief.
Unless few prospective buyers start cancelling or threaten to cancel their booking for this reason, I don't see Kia taking the situation seriously.