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Old 25th November 2020, 20:26   #241
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by arungeorge View Post
From Suzuki South Africa Facebook Page.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attac...ing-suzuki.jpg
This response from Suzuki South Africa needs to be broadcast all over India, so all prospective Maruti customers realize the contempt with which Suzuki treats its biggest market.
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Old 25th November 2020, 20:42   #242
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Also one more thing, Tata just sold 23 K in total last month and Maruti's Swift alone sold almost same numbers. In Total Maruti is selling many times more cars than Tata for last 20 years. Instead of mocking Maruti, Tata you better learn few good things from them. It will help you improve only, just mocking on social media will not take you anywhere. Thanks & all the best.
Selling cars in large numbers doesn't justify Marutis arrogance in reply and offering unsafe products. Instead they should learn from Tata and Mahindra that even selling cars in low volume, they still made a brave move and offering better quality-feature rich and safe products in a same price of Maruti cars. Thanks
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Old 25th November 2020, 21:36   #243
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

ROFL! This ad cracked me up. They should really fire their marketing team for such an inane, toothless response. Dignified silence (or perhaps embarrassed acquiesce) would have been far better!

Tatas deserve success for the effort they've put in making their cars safer. Maruti keeps churning out these idiotic tin cans hiding behind the claim that that money can't buy safety. Even the Renault attempt was a 0 Star. Hyundai charges a premium for their 2-starrers. Tatas have shown safety can be achieved (even if the Tiago has 4 Stars qualified by an unstable structure) at that price point. And everything at a premium has achieved 5-stars. That is an incredible achievement. I'm more than happy with their tom-toming it and beating every other manufacturer over the head with it too (and it'll hurt more too cause you know 0-stars )

If anything, this response by Maruti proves just how pathetically out of touch they're with passenger safety.

Last edited by Annibaddh : 25th November 2020 at 21:39.
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Old 25th November 2020, 21:52   #244
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

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Originally Posted by DrCar View Post
Tata can very well come up with a response to Maruti like:

" Sure, 24 lakh+ family has trusted you Dilse till date.
But, we trust our cars Dilse to keep 24 lakh+ family safer from here on."
They can also say “ Gosh 24+ lakh coffins around”

PS: I have one of them.
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Old 25th November 2020, 21:54   #245
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Originally Posted by Mustang Sammy View Post
This response from Suzuki South Africa needs to be broadcast all over India, so all prospective Maruti customers realize the contempt with which Suzuki treats its biggest market.
Ive been following the new found safety consciousness amongst these car makers which has in turn set the TBhp forum ablaze with discussion.

Finally, I mean finally we are headed in the right direction with cars actually being advertised for safety. Not just 'safety kit ' but actual tangible international GlobalNCAP safety ratings.

Tata and Mahindra deserve a pat on the back for the results. Ive believed in free market power and that Indian brands should go head on with global brands to prove their salt to deserve our money,but in this case if our desi boys rule the roost like this , then I wouldn't mind going Aatma Nirbhar for cars at least.

Ill reserve my comments on the tastefulness with which the Maruti jibes have been executed, but of that's what it takes to get the word out so be it.

Maruti has shot itself on the foot by reassuring South Africans that they have nothing to worry and the most unsafe variants are only sold to Indians. While a small shot in the foot won't bleed out Maruti , we need to take note of the apathy towards our market. The value proposition , service network and translated resale will ensure Maruti still rules the Budget Battle in India and to the bulk of the car buying public outside TBhp this star rating sadly still won't matter, but probably higher up the ladder we can aspire to be more safety mongers.

The Seltos debacle was an eye opener for me personally. We read everywhere ,on reviews and brochures , which advertise "excellent safety kit" with a bunch of jargons thrown in. The GNCAP game has arrived to our shores late but better late than never.

This star strike might not create shockwaves in the Indian market , but he'll yeah, it's going to create ripples in the mind of the discerning Indian car buyer.

We will definitely be seeing the GNCAP rating added to Team Bhp official reviews rather than just having to say excellent safety kit. At least TBhpians would take this into account in their car buying decisions in the future.

I was planning to buy the Spresso for my wife. We had shortlisted it and it ticked all boxes. We were ready to buy it as the School run and market beater car. I know the zero stars doesn't change much for the car or my requirements from last month for which I chose the car, but I've skipped the idea, because I can't consciously plonk my money after learning this.
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Old 25th November 2020, 23:15   #246
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

I won’t be surprised if Mahindra joins the bandwagon - Xuv300 and THAR both scoring well. Its time we spoke about safety though. It’s an often overlooked ‘feature’. What most people don’t understand is that most ‘features’ such as sunroofs, ICE, even sensor based warning systems etc can be retrofitted - the base of a car cannot be changed. Case in point is the threads here showing the structural difference between made for India and other market Hyundai’s/ Kia’s.
I also saw posts talking about Airbags and all the three word short forms (ABS, ESC, etc) being equally important. The reason why crash testing is done and is important is when all else fails - it is effectively your last defence. A car with 10 airbags but weak chassis is worse than a car with no airbags but a strong chassis - relatively speaking of course. Airbags are supplementary restraints - and depend upon the primary restraints, I.e. seatbelt’s to work properly, which means if you have a weak chassis the seatbelt’s won’t be able to do their job as well because - you guessed it the seatbelt’s are anchored to the chassis! Strong pillars will also help in case of flip overs. Case in point is an old image of an Italian with a dumper full of stones on its roof!

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...ml#post1422879 (Pics: Accidents in India)

Of course this is as freak as it can get but great to know that a well engineered car can protect you in such cases as well.

Of course a 5 star rated car with all the three word tech abs airbags won’t be able to protect you if you exceed the design limits and crash it at a 140 :(
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Old 25th November 2020, 23:46   #247
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

I own a couple of Maruti's and I love the fuss-free ownership and the peace of mind that Maruti's after-sales service brings, but this response from Maruti is quite frankly ridiculous.

Maruti saying our car's structure is not strong, but we are dil se strong is like the cheesy line in Bollywood movies :

" Hum Garib Hai Toh Kya Hua Dil Se Amir Hai "



Yeah, I don't see myself buying or recommending a Maruti to anyone if they don't improve their safety.
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Old 26th November 2020, 00:50   #248
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

Let me start by making two statements.

1) Suzuki India is behaving like a jack by not giving two hoots to NCAP testing when they kowtow to it worldwide.

2) What GNCAP is doing under the aegis of "SafercarsforIndia" banner is actually fearmongering. This negative messaging worked gradually in educated and human life valuing societies of Europe and US. For a society like India, the safer car adoption rate due to this fearmongering would be even lower.

Anyways, there are three scenarios I would like to throw to the forum all though it might be speculative and a bit off topic. Please bear with me.

1) As far as I know, Passenger Airbag is going to be mandated as standard equipment ala Driver Airbag with implementation across the line up within next 1-2 years with forthcoming revision in AIS 145. With the base variants, that GNCAP tests and so enthusiastically touts as proof of unsafety, now being gone, how will the picture and opinions change with the base variant now possibly having a star rating of 2 stars or so?

2) If GNCAP has good intentions as most believe, then akin to rest of the world, the testing criteria would get more severe every 2-3 years. So, today's 5 star rated car maybe 2-3 star rated a couple of years down the line, if re-tested as NCAP did with FIAT Panda in 2018 when they downgraded the car to 0 star. So, do we stop buying a successful once safe car as their testing criteria changes.

3) To keep 5 star rating, due to revised criteria, cost will have to be put into lowest variants as well resulting in the market moving increasingly towards a higher price bracket. With no safety testing or requirements from 2 wheelers, their cost would increase in line with inflation whereas even entry level cars would be increasingly become more expensive. I was shocked to learn that a basic Alto in India costs appx INR 3.3 Lacs on road. With new norms and NCAP countermeasures, this cost would only increase. So, in essence, a section of people would be guided towards 2 wheelers further. Are we increasing overall road safety this way? Now, if these 2 wheeler buying people would be riding the smaller relatively unsafe cars like Alto, Eon, Santro etc, would the society be more safer or not?
As I wrote the third point, I felt more and more that maybe Mr.Bhargava has a point. There are no easy answers but one thing is clear that Government has to play a more active rule in transport policy making beyond its stated dream of reducing imported oil dependency.
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Old 26th November 2020, 08:19   #249
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

I am a huge fan of current Tata cars and I'm thinking to get the Nexon petrol AMT. If I'm searching for a small car just for daily city commute, I'll still check the vehicles listed in Maruti portfolio. Nothing can beat their parts and service availability and most of the time we can get the parts changed with less hassles during warranty replacement (unlike my current Honda). Moreover I love the concept of MASS and they do a fabulous job. Product quality may not be good but the support infrastructure is excellent.You will find a service center even in remote locations and can be a saving grace if something unexpected happens during highway runs.

Last edited by rahulskumar : 26th November 2020 at 08:21.
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Old 26th November 2020, 08:54   #250
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

Absolutely out of context reply by Maruti. Defending poor safety aspect by using sales figure isn't what one expects from India's largest car manufacturer.
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Old 26th November 2020, 08:56   #251
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

But look what they say overseas. Feel really sad
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post
Suzuki India is behaving like a jack by not giving two hoots to NCAP testing when they kowtow to it worldwide.
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Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating-photo202011252102311.jpg  

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Old 26th November 2020, 08:58   #252
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

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Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post
2) What GNCAP is doing under the aegis of "SafercarsforIndia" banner is actually fearmongering. This negative messaging worked gradually in educated and human life valuing societies of Europe and US. For a society like India, the safer car adoption rate due to this fearmongering would be even lower.
Global NCAP's "fearmongering" resulted in all the safety advancements in the recent past -

1. BNVSAP (even though watered down!)
2. Standard airbags
3. Safety improvements from our homegrown manufacturers. (0 star Scorpio to 4 star Thar!) etc.

I'd say Global NCAP has shown us the reality of players like Maruti Suzuki and Hyundai who build products with two standards for the domestic and international markets. And that surely has accelerated safety by a huge margin in the last five years!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post
1) As far as I know, Passenger Airbag is going to be mandated as standard equipment ala Driver Airbag with implementation across the line up within next 1-2 years with forthcoming revision in AIS 145. With the base variants, that GNCAP tests and so enthusiastically touts as proof of unsafety, now being gone, how will the picture and opinions change with the base variant now possibly having a star rating of 2 stars or so?
Just having airbags wont ensure two stars!

For example - below is the Maruti Spresso which had driver airbags, but failed on two counts - 1. Passengers neck (which is expected) and 2. Drivers chest despite the airbags!

Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating-screenshot-20201126-8.28.57-am.png

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post
2) If GNCAP has good intentions as most believe, then akin to rest of the world, the testing criteria would get more severe every 2-3 years. So, today's 5 star rated car maybe 2-3 star rated a couple of years down the line, if re-tested as NCAP did with FIAT Panda in 2018 when they downgraded the car to 0 star.
FIAT Punto, and it was downgraded to 0 stars for getting 0% in safety assist for the lack of AEB, SBR, Lane keeping assist and speed assistance. If you see the ratings - it still fared better in AOP tests than most of our options, but thats not good enough for Europe anymore. And FIAT stopped sales thereafter!

Similarly in India - Toyota responded to Global NCAP by making airbags standard on the Etios and Liva. VW did the same! TATA and Mahindra responded by making 4 star and 5 star cars. Mahindra just yesterday announced the discontinuation of side bench variants of the Thar for this reason as well. If others can't do it - it is because their priorities are elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post
I was shocked to learn that a basic Alto in India costs appx INR 3.3 Lacs on road.
Yet even the Alto 800 gets an option of a Smartplay touchscreen audio system in higher variants - but it can't offer safety! Same with the Santro.

And the Alto/Santro excuse is what Maruti and Hyundai group keeps providing every time the question comes up! But what keeps them from providing better safety in cars like the WagonR, Swift, i10, Seltos etc which are not very price conscious segments and others have already shown how to achieve safety at these prices? Companies just go for maximum profit and prioritise what is visible and helps sell products - knowing none of us can assess safety otherwise. This is where GlobalNCAP has helped the market.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 26th November 2020 at 09:16. Reason: 0 star Scorpio, not 1 star
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Old 26th November 2020, 09:10   #253
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

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Originally Posted by Venkatesh View Post
Maruti reply with sales numbers to Tata Motors after Twitter jibe on WagonR
Isn't it a good reason to make safer cars and protect the lives of their customers? Such sales volume should give them enough confidence to improve the sheet metal quality. They should understand that the increase in weight and decrease in fuel economy would not affect their sales. Just to make some more money they are risking the lives of their customers and commenting that people still buy their cars is showing their callousness towards their customers.

I would buy the swift over any other car in the segment even if it gave me 10 kmpl but with 4/5 star GNCAP rating.
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Old 26th November 2020, 09:23   #254
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post

2) What GNCAP is doing under the aegis of "SafercarsforIndia" banner is actually fearmongering. This negative messaging worked gradually in educated and human life valuing societies of Europe and US. For a society like India, the safer car adoption rate due to this fearmongering would be even lower.
I'm so sorry; but I'm just not getting this. How is this initiative a bad thing? This is not a propaganda of any sort, GNCAP is not using fear tactics to "scare" people, they're just stating the facts. Cars built to lower standards faring poorly is not manufactured news.
And now more people are getting aware of the importance of safety. How is this a bad thing? I'm just confused.
If anything, people have started looking for safer alternatives provided by Tata and the lot. Isn't this any improvement over the situation before GNCAP's tests were conducted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post
1) As far as I know, Passenger Airbag is going to be mandated as standard equipment ala Driver Airbag with implementation across the line up within next 1-2 years with forthcoming revision in AIS 145. With the base variants, that GNCAP tests and so enthusiastically touts as proof of unsafety, now being gone, how will the picture and opinions change with the base variant now possibly having a star rating of 2 stars or so?
The picture won't change one bit. Adding more airbags won't do any wonders if the structure of the car is weak. Airbags aren't not the sole criterion of judging the safety of the car; I honestly don't know where this information is from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post

2) If GNCAP has good intentions as most believe, then akin to rest of the world, the testing criteria would get more severe every 2-3 years. So, today's 5 star rated car maybe 2-3 star rated a couple of years down the line, if re-tested as NCAP did with FIAT Panda in 2018 when they downgraded the car to 0 star. So, do we stop buying a successful once safe car as their testing criteria changes.
Then it's the responsibility of the manufacturer to follow suit. They too should revise their cars with every facelift with newer standards.
And I don't think it's fair comparing today's standards with that of yesteryear's, like the Punto situation. That was an early 2000's car built for early 2000's standards. Crash safety norms have come a long way since then. Besides I don't think basic things like body structure stability won't be changing periodically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma2017 View Post

3) To keep 5 star rating, due to revised criteria, cost will have to be put into lowest variants as well resulting in the market moving increasingly towards a higher price bracket. With no safety testing or requirements from 2 wheelers, their cost would increase in line with inflation whereas even entry level cars would be increasingly become more expensive. I was shocked to learn that a basic Alto in India costs appx INR 3.3 Lacs on road. With new norms and NCAP countermeasures, this cost would only increase. So, in essence, a section of people would be guided towards 2 wheelers further. Are we increasing overall road safety this way? Now, if these 2 wheeler buying people would be riding the smaller relatively unsafe cars like Alto, Eon, Santro etc, would the society be more safer or not?
I'll admit this is an issue we just can't have a solution for. Mr.Bhargava is right in some way. Cars would be even more expensive, and hence would be out of reach for most. And yes, for ultra-cheap cars like Alto, Kwid, S-Presso, yeah. That's the price you pay. The universal law of catch-22 I guess.
But what about it's more bigger offerings? The supposedly premium Baleno, Ertiga etc. are built on the same platform as they are. These aren't entirely budget-grade cars. What's their excuse for skimping safety in them? Hyundai/Kia stooped even lower levels for their premium Seltos, i10 NIOS, but that's another story.

I'm sorry if I sounded hostile in anyway, just sharing my view, that's all. The Alto range, nothing we can do about that. I think we should be following the same "Kei car" rules from Japan for this segment, restricting their use to city limits and stuff.

But, as for the bigger segments; absolutely no excuse. Safety is one thing one shouldn't compromise on, especially if we're paying big bucks. The Air Purifier is simply not worth skipping basic standards for.

Let's agree to disagree on the GNCAP thing. They're doing a huge favour of reminding the risks of reckless driving. And instead of questioning their credibility, responsible manufacturers like Tata and Mahindra have followed suit.
The least we can do is be more responsible in our priorities when it comes to bigger segments, or else companies would start to save money by compromising safety on bigger, premium cars as well, leaving absolutely no hope for less fortunate mortals like us.
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Old 26th November 2020, 09:39   #255
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Default Re: Tata Motors mocks the S-Presso for its zero safety rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Global NCAP's "fearmongering" resulted in all the safety advancements in the recent past -

1. BNVSAP (even though watered down!)
2. Standard airbags
3. Safety improvements from our homegrown manufacturers. (1 star Scorpio to 4 star Thar!) etc.

I'd say Global NCAP has shown us the reality of players like Maruti Suzuki and Hyundai who build products with two standards for the domestic and international markets. And that surely has accelerated safety by a huge margin in the last five years!

.....
With due respect and I admit I am not as well read as you about Indian Automotive market, I believe there was always a regulation roadmap in India by which Crash regulations were due to be mandated by 2020 for all cars. GNCAP in fact uses the regulatory Side Impact test as one of the criteria for stars, which interestingly Santro, Alto meet as of today.

BNVSAP / BNCAP is a pipe dream as of today as there is no movement on the same in Government Technical Working Groups as per my sources. Maybe they will, one day, but be rest assured that the motive then would be to undermine GNCAP than any other altruistic ones.

Safety improvements by homegrown ones are a marketing factor / feature and acts as a differentiator from the market which allows them to survive. It's like Hyundai touting Sun Roof and Bose Branded Audio as a key marketing feature. Fear is a very effective tool for sales especially among the educated gentry who feel they have lot to lose even though they maybe perfectly happy in jumping red lights and overspeeding.

Products with 2 different standard for different markets have been a reality since beginning of time. Japanese cars always had to be upgraded with extra kit including body reinforcements to sell in US. Some Refrigerants were also pushed in to India when they were banned worldwide. Regulatory scenario and affordability will always dictate such strategies of OEMs.
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