[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by Samegoodkid

I believe if one has to have only one car, having a plug in would make more sense. Given the bumper to.bumper traffic conditions in all our cities, the car would be purely in ev mode.

You would be carrying a giant engine that weighs a ton around town, for no practical reason. When you drive out of town using ICE engine, you carry around a giant battery pack, its thermal management system, for no reason. Also, a Lithium battery when not placed in a thermally suitable environment, loses its capability.

My brother had a Prius prime, and my friend had a BMW e535 - both plugin hybrids. Both of them sold it under 3 years of ownership. The 30 mile electric range drops to literally nothing as the battery is not constantly operated in a thermally suitable environment.

A Tesla even when parked has phantom drain. Tesla high voltage batteries are regulated to keep the battery temperature within optimal boundaries. Even if the vehicle is not being operated, the high voltage battery temperature is monitored and regulated to prolong its lifespan and performance – this is why you may notice the compressor running even while parked. When this temperature regulation is not done, the batteries go useless in a couple years, and you are driving around this dead weight burning gas.

The way I see it - plug in hybrids are jugaad solutions by manufacturers to buy carbon offsets, and tax subsidies - because they didn't scale up their EV offerings in time.

[SlowRider]

I'm all for plug-in hybrids. IMO, they're two cars in one. If your commute is within the electric range, you get to commute on pure electricity. Even if it's not in electric range, your ICE mileage will be great because all the stop&go traffic will be handled in electric mode. And when you're making a road trip, you don't have to worry about the electric range because the ICE will take care of it. ICE will report better FE numbers too, since they operate in hybrid mode. I think the reason we don't see this offering in India is because of the price. It will not be cheap to have a true hybrid with sizeable battery that a plug-in hybrid requires. Given the current production bottlenecks, it makes more sense for manufacturers to use the limited battery production capacity to serve markets that can support higher margins on vehicles (like the US).

[mxx]

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

You would be carrying a giant engine that weighs a ton around town, for no practical reason. When you drive out of town using ICE engine, you carry around a giant battery pack, its thermal management system, for no reason.

But this is the only solution that allows me good range and good fuel efficiency. With a bigger battery pack I can even have almost pure EV experience for my daily work commute.
I do road trips every 2-3 months. If I go for the pure EV/BEV route, I will have to buy and maintain a second ICE care. That will be a waste of money.


Using a BEV for highway and city is not practical in India. Yes, in US and western europe it might be possible because of better charging infrastructure.

Also, a Lithium battery when not placed in a thermally suitable environment, loses its capability.

That depends on how good the implementation of battery cooling system is and has little to do with hybrid vs BEV.
There were some 1st gen BEV (was it nissan leaf) that had bad cooling system due to which its battery degraded fast.

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by mxx

But this is the only solution that allows me good range and good fuel efficiency. With a bigger battery pack I can even have almost pure EV experience for my daily work commute.

I am not sure if we are talking about the promise of a solution that works or existing plugin electric cars.
I am talking about existing cars I see today. For hybrid efficiency, cars like the Toyota Prius and Kona hybrids are great. They have been here for years. They have a tiny battery and a tiny motor, to power through stop and go city traffic. I had a Prius from 2012 to 2015, it really is a great solution for city commutes.

The moment you say bigger battery, you are looking at added weight, added cooling systems, heat pump, and added initial costs. The Prius Prime is a plug in hybrid, with lots of data available. Without active battery cooling/heating, the small battery loses range, but the weight of battery and motor remains the same. You are carrying this around all the time, this cant be efficient.

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by mxx

But this is the only solution that allows me good range and good fuel efficiency..

Sorry to break your bubble. As I mentioned in my earlier post, plug-in hybrids are a result of compliance engineering. They perform most fuel efficient with less emissions only under test cycles. But in real life they are less fuel efficient and emit even more CO2 than what OEMs claim.

I suggest reading through this link : https://www.which.co.uk/news/article...m-aIpyB5l2V4A8

And in the link, which questioned the OEMs why the claimed fuel efficiency is much lower than real world and the answers of BMW, Mercedes and Toyota is almost the same. We tested it under WLTP! Of course they engineered the cars for compliance

[SlowRider]

Originally Posted by carthick1000

Sorry to break your bubble. As I mentioned in my earlier post, plug-in hybrids are a result of compliance engineering. They perform most fuel efficient with less emissions only under test cycles. But in real life they are less fuel efficient and emit even more CO2 than what OEMs claim.

I suggest reading through this link : https://www.which.co.uk/news/article...m-aIpyB5l2V4A8

That's an interesting article; thanks for bringing it to the forum's attention. However, I didn't get the feel that it's as clear-cut as you claim. What I understood is that if you don't charge your plug-in hybrid regularly, it is way less efficient than what manufacturers claim. The extent of degradation in fuel efficiency was definitely eye-opening. That's the cost you pay for lugging around all that extra weight. However, if you plug in your car at the end of the day, you should be able to achieve close to manufacturer-claimed FE. So the takeaway for me is that if you buy a plug-in hybrid, make sure you plug it in regularly, or you're better off getting a conventional hybrid or BEV. A Nexon EV could potentially do 3-4 days of commute on a single charge. But a plug-in hybrid needs to be charged at the end of every day. It is a compromise, but I think that compromise will make sense to a lot of people in a single-car household.

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by SlowRider

It is a compromise, but I think that compromise will make sense to a lot of people in a single-car household.

Yes, IF:
- regularly driven in town within the battery's range.
- there is a charger at user's disposal at home, work or both.
- And the user should be disciplined enough to charge it everyday or even every trip. Otherwise the combustion engine will kick in and not only will it have to power your car, but it's also having to carry the weight of a heavy hybrid system.
- And can shell out the extra cost Vs normal ICE car

[Vid6639]

PHEV's offer no real benefit but have the disadvantages of EV i.e. charging infra. On top of that they are heavier and more over way more expensive since they have the cost of a big battery and the cost of the IC engine.

With a conventional Hybrid you offset the cost by using a very small battery pack.

On top of that in EV mode you are always carrying a heavy IC engine and still charging at home. May as well get a full fledged EV if you have access to charging.

And if you are not confident of EV range why not get a normal Hybrid which doesn't need charging as well.

With PHEV you have to charge it at home then go to gas station to tank up fuel plus pay same or more than EV.

Other than push for full EV's the right step would be to do away with diesel's and move to Hybrids in mid segment cars.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by SRT_Dwarka

so i would think doing a 8-10 kWH battery with a pure electric range of about 50 odd KM should be very doable at a premium of about 3 lakh rupees.

So, as per your calculation that would be addition of 3 lakhs premium on the City hybrid making it 22.5lakhs ex showroom.

In case of MG ZS and Nexon EV the engine and gearbox are deleted, but for a PHEV, the battery should be added to a Hybrid, not on a regular city. Honda Hybrid already has a complex system, 2 motors, clutch, engine.

[SRT_Dwarka]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

So, as per your calculation that would be addition of 3 lakhs premium on the City hybrid making it 22.5lakhs ex showroom.

In case of MG ZS and Nexon EV the engine and gearbox are deleted, but for a PHEV, the battery should be added to a Hybrid, not on a regular city. Honda Hybrid already has a complex system, 2 motors, clutch, engine.

I agree to your point on PHEV premium, to be calculated over a hybrid one, with a couple of caveats: The Honda City HEV is way overpriced. That said, ideally batteries shouldn't cost more than about Rs 10,000 a kWH so the additional premium for a PHEV with a 8kWH battery and charger should in all likelihood not increase beyond INR 1 lakh over the HEV version

[4wheels_2Wheels]

My technical knowledge of this is not perfect but it would seem that PHEVs would be the best transition solution for India, with our urban centres and lack of charging infrastructure. For city driving, one could exclusively use battery power with the stop start nature of driving and then switch over to conventional IC for longer drives where charging might be a bit challenging. The strong hybrid variants from the Japanese cos seem to be a little bit of an eyewash. Sure you get "better" mileage, but it's a very relative measurement. If you were to look at the mileage from these same cars from a few years ago, it's not much of a difference
Plug-ins would help reduce emissions much more effectively where there is a desperate need and in areas where consumption is much higher. On highways, where fuel efficiency anyway is higher, it would not matter as much. With smaller batteries the cost would also be a lot lower than full EVs, which honestly speaking are waaaay too overpriced, pushing prices 2-3 segments higher.
Am I missing something here?