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View Poll Results: Will you buy a focused drivers hatchback over a practical SUV or sedan for similar money?
Yes, bring it on! And I am willing to put money where my mouth is. Joy of driving above all. 178 55.28%
No, I need to factor a lot of things. So a more practical SUV or sedan it is. 144 44.72%
Voters: 322. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28th November 2020, 15:01   #16
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

With all the rickshaws, people driving at 40kph to extract every bit of efficiency and other slow vehicles on the road, even a 80bhp engines feels pretty fast. So generally buyers look past the power and choose the car with more convenience, features and bling.

It's better to sit in a luxurious cabin with 80nhp than a pretty basic cabin with 200bhp under the hood especially if you're stuck in traffic most of the time.
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Old 28th November 2020, 15:40   #17
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

Voted YES. Maybe not as a daily driver but a fun weekend vehicle or for the highways. I love hatchbacks and a 130+ BHP or even a 3 Cylinder Turbo Petrol hatch would do it for me. As long as they're not highly overpriced 25l+
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Old 28th November 2020, 20:43   #18
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

Votes yes.

Saw this review and was stunned at the fun to drive factor:



I did recently put money where my mouth is and picked up a Vento HL+ TSI inspite of the options and aftersales for close to 13 OTR, simply for the fun to drive factor. My first car!

This, if only it wasn't so limited in its' production run, could be a mouthwatering deal for me a few years later too. What a car!

So much for the Yaris abroad being called a grandma's car, indeed.

PS - Fabric seats are better than leather/ette in my books, any day!

Last edited by Sen : 28th November 2020 at 20:54.
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Old 28th November 2020, 21:21   #19
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

My wish has always been something small like a hatch or crossover with HUGE diesel engine. Imagine the fun one can have with 2.0L polo TDi or an Hyundai i30 with 2.0 diesel and 8-speed auto from Tucson

Sadly S-Cross 1.6 was the only one close to my idea of a nice and fast car within my reach. We all know how thar went.
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Old 28th November 2020, 21:29   #20
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

Votes yes, since I've already put my money where my mouth is. Source: my signature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Anyone who needs a little brand sheen - a weak name like Nissan or a newcomer like Citroen / Kia - should experiment with a hot hatchback. Will attract the enthusiast community toward them and add some allure to their nameplate.
Best idea yet.

But in reality, even car enthusiasts will switch over at the last minute to the more mundane yet common sense friendly commuters-mobiles. But I do hope some brands go down this road.
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Old 28th November 2020, 21:44   #21
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
The stereotyped Indian media paints a different picture, but I honestly believe there are many out there who would value such a car. Let me know! And please be honest - there is no judgement here, just curious. I can totally understand if the preference is for a Sonet or EcoSport or the City sedan instead of this. Let's find out!
Thanks for the thread and count me in.
Till date the most fun I had driving(overseas) was on a Golf(1.4TSI/1.2TSI/1.6NA). The Polo GT TSI is what comes closest here but in 2020 its old and the VW maintenance costs do hurt, also not very optimistic about VW's future in India.
But like you rightly said there's a gap that exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
The parallel to that in our market will be a full size hatchback which is a proper drivers car with a potent petrol engine. The driver's car part is non negotiable! It's got to steer wonderfully, handle joyfully, ride okay and brake very well. Coupled with a 6MT & a torque converter 6AT. The latter is to widen its appeal a bit. And built well inside out. No need for fancy or rich material either - but everything should feel strong and be fitted properly.

And no need for vanity kit - big touchscreen or sunroof or digital dials or ventilated bottoms. A nice fabric seat can do the job. The idea is to save money on these, but not to dilute the driving aspects. I would prefer such a machine over a SUV or sedan. And I am willing to pay 13~15 lakhs for it - on the road. Is there a market for such a car here? Essentially, the GR Yaris for the Indian market - the car that shouldn't exist, but we are so glad it does exist.
Exactly, you nailed the requirements along with the price range. Anything more expensive and given how small the market is, the sales will start thinning and make it untenable for the manufacturer. For a majority of us it will either be the only car(first/upgrade) or the other car. So although the Polo GTI is very attractive but 23-25 lakhs on road doesn't work.
This is very similar to buying a big-bike. Bikes priced in around 8-12 lakhs on road have much better sales than the ones priced higher(except some purpose built ones). For example, if the requirement is of a simple parallel twin 650cc ADV with 70-80bhp, 17-21 liter tank and switchable ABS in 8-10 lakhs on road that's it. Any other features are welcome but strictly optional(read traction control, rider modes, heated grips, TFT instrumentation etc.). Neither will a full blown 1000cc multi with everything automated at 20 lakhs fulfill the requirement nor will a 400cc machine with heated grips and TFT displays at 4 lakhs do the job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Anyone who needs a little brand sheen - a weak name like Nissan or a newcomer like Citroen / Kia - should experiment with a hot hatchback. Will attract the enthusiast community toward them and add some allure to their nameplate.
Interesting idea, this could be the "rising from ashes" moment for a dying brand, but I don't think they have petrol-heads taking business decisions, sadly. They'll either try to go for numbers, so "bang for the buck" products or build themselves as a luxury marque. I don't blame them but seems like that's what we are buying right from Kwids to Seltos/Hectors and everyone wants to cash in on the "SUV revolution".

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
IMHO - No, even though we'd all like to pretend otherwise!

The Abarth Punto offered a 145hp turbo petrol motor, as against the 90hp diesel of the normal variant - had good build quality, was lowered than the regular variant and had stiffer suspension, all wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering - and was a hoot to drive. Priced at 9.95 lakhs ex-showroom!

That was a GR Yaris as far as the performance-starved Indian market was concerned? But flopped as expected - because we expect our cars to be allrounders. At a 9.95 lakh price tag - it didn't have creature comforts like a sunroof, touchscreen audio etc. It sold 79 units in CY2019, 35 units in CY2018 - the whole definition of no market demand! Even among enthusiasts - it was deemed overpriced, whereas a year after it is discontinued - Hyundai has now breached 11 lakhs with the regular i20!
Excellent point about the Abarth, but one thing that might have also worked against it was the perceived image of FIAT and even more its A.S.S. situation. I never owned one but had friends who owned the Palio, Punto and Linea. All loved their cars but all hated the A.S.S. in the same breath. But I might be wrong about its impact on sales as I don't know the sales figures of other FIATs when the Abarth was around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
But then again, there are quite a lot of comparisons drawn to cars like the Sonet for the features it offer at a slightly cheaper 12.99 lakhs. Thankfully though - this one is nothing but a flop!
This makes me sad, our car buying has gone from "this is what I want" to "what can I get for this much". The "car" doesn't seems to matter anymore. We are driving feature-lists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
With the current economic scenario, this might be a good time to bring back that normalization again or better still - scrap this stupid small car rule once and for all.
Couldn't agree more on this. Something inside me still cringes when I hear the words "sedan" for a DZire/XCent and "SUV" for a Nexon/Ecosport(even S-Presso). I think we were heading in the right direction with "sedan"(City/Accent/Vento/Jetta) and "SUV"(Safari/Scorpio) when the "sub 4m rule" happened and things took a turn for the worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
The latest Polo with the 1.5 TSI + AT + 5 doors at around 15 lakhs. Or even the latest Fiesta with the 1.5 EcoBoost! A car which can also work as a single car in the family for an enthusiast. A modern car from the latest generation, but with a variant leaning towards the driver! Sure, there will be some compromises, but you get the gist!
Exactly, I had driven the 1.4TSI on a Golf, the 1.5TSI on the latest Polo should suffice most of us(not just VW but any car on the same lines).
VW doesn't seem very keen in India(the "handover" to Skoda) so can't consider them seriously(still waiting for the not so new Polo).
The Mahindra-Ford alliance could bring something interesting but I think they'll focus on SUVs initially.
For now, I have hopes with the Altroz Turbo Petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
So, Toyota is also shortchanging even the advanced markets with the boring variants of Yaris. I honestly don't know what to feel about it!
Yes, Yaris isn't considered remotely related to performance, overseas. It sells because its a low priced Toyota meaning reliable, cheap maintenance and good resale. In short "foreign" Maruti
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Old 28th November 2020, 21:50   #22
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

As the second car in the garage yes. As a sole car NO.

It would be a joy taking out the hatchback on Saturdays to work or for those weekend drives. As a sole car, It would be pretty impractical say when i need to carry luggage or shopping.
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Old 28th November 2020, 23:07   #23
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

The largest selling car in India: MS Swift, is one great car to have notwithstanding the flimsy build. It's got all the ingredients of a successful hatch and so it sells at around 25K a month. MS should take the risk and bring out the Swift Sport Version.
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Old 28th November 2020, 23:30   #24
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

Votes YES. I feel qualified to answer this, having spent 10 big ones a shoeboxed sized hatch with significant gizmo compromises, just for the sake of driving performance. Although the steering feedback is not ideal, it's still the best available option in this range. I'd be more than willing to pay ~2-3Ls more if I could get a properly sized hatch, basically a Jazz Type R of sorts.

Life just feels more exciting, I love driving my car more and more every day. I have a smile plastered on my face every time I get to take it out on a highway. These joys of life are what make it more than mere survival while dealing with life's troubles.

A Toyota/Honda hot hatch would be absolutely ideal. It won't be the same as an offering by FIAT since brand pull, service, its future are also deciding factors for buyers. One of the reasons I bought a VW is because they look committed to the Indian market for the forseeable future. If they had one foot out the door like FIAT had for a long time, I'd probably not have gotten to enjoy this car.

If MSIL can bring the Swift Sport with a stronger shell (build quality isn't THAT important if they can make it structurally safe), that'd be pretty good too. They have the economies of scale and can price it competitively. Although it's only been a little over a month since I've owned a Polo TSI but this is a category of cars I'd always be looking forward to in the future. Not just for a secondary car but for a primary one.
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Old 28th November 2020, 23:36   #25
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

Drive one now, will 10/10 do it again, affordability permitting.

BUT: will only consider an internationally-sold model to ensure long-term aftermarket parts/service support isn't a headache, and minimize reliance on manufacturer beyond factory warranty period. Won't touch another experimental, limited edition model with a barge pole you could poke the moon with.
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Old 29th November 2020, 04:56   #26
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

Yaris GR is also one of the few cars ever reviewed by TopGear ever to get a 10/10 score.

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/toyota/gr-yaris
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Old 29th November 2020, 10:32   #27
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

The GR Yaris

The last time I was super hyped excited for an international model was the 86 in the early 2010s.
Haven't driven it yet, (don't think I would ever), but sat on one in the showroom....that elusive perfect driving position

When TKM announced they were planning on Gazoo Racing products for India, it was not the Supra that I was excited, but the 86 and GR Yaris.

Small (under 4m), 3 door, frameless doors, 0-100 in 5.xx secs, manual transmission/handbrake, AWD with selectable 60:40, 30:70, 50:50 power split.

Only negatives I could think of...for longevity sake...use of exotic materials on the body and a super high strung 3 pot...and the fact it wouldn't ever see Indian soil.

Sorry for going

Regarding the OP topic.

Personally I find small cars appealing to me..seeing our road conditions and the fun roads seen around my area.
And I still believe there are customers for potent hatchbacks, atleast looking at the customer set swooping up the import quotas of VAG.

Of the new entrants, had hope on the PSA group, but since it is comfort oriented Citroen that's coming to India, lost hope on that (again, looking forward to them..who wouldn't want a Duster/Hexa beating comfy suspension)

Could go on and name manufacturers who could bring hot hatches, especially with the 2500 units/year quota given and people looking to revenge spend on exciting products.

But then, looking at our history, we haven't been kind to hot hatches and no can blame manufacturers for not trying.
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Old 29th November 2020, 22:03   #28
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

'Joy of riding above all' - only if it included piece of mind in terms of joy of ownership. I think it's mostly a given that these cars will be ridiculously priced but it's not the price that worries me. It's the thought of being forgotten by the manufacturer after the inventory is sold. Voted a 'No'.
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Old 30th November 2020, 08:37   #29
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

Quote:
Originally Posted by shancz View Post
Thanks for the thread and count me in.
Thank You! All that you said makes sense to me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shancz View Post
Excellent point about the Abarth, but one thing that might have also worked against it was the perceived image of FIAT and even more its A.S.S. situation.
The idea was solid on paper, but Fiat floundered the execution. I just couldn't feel that connection with the car whenever I drove it. There were two big problems, something that is essential in a driver's car for me. 1) Seating position 2) Gearbox. I need to sit low and away from the windshield in any car, and it is never possible in a Punto. It was always like a semi-squat position. And enough has been said about the gearbox on this forum already! A good transmission must complement the engine, and in the Abarth Punto, it was anything but that. Also, the feel of the shifts etc. made the car real feel outdated. And the car was really that back then. Not just the model, but the brand itself was on its last leg. And we will totally miss the big picture if we make all future decisions based on that single outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shancz View Post
The Mahindra-Ford alliance could bring something interesting but I think they'll focus on SUVs initially.
Yes, Ford is well placed on this I would say! Just like VW themselves. The latest Fiesta can really be GT TSi Part 2. I think there will be numbers - think about all those in the market looking for the next GT TSi! Potent engine + great MT/AT + little more room and taking it further with the dynamics - that's what we are looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durango Dude View Post
MS should take the risk and bring out the Swift Sport Version.
Maruti can do this, easily! But they won't.

The company has always blown hot and cold for me ever since its inception. For a few years, the company will be super aggressive meeting all requirements in the market annihilating the competition with a host of new models, variants, some technical improvements etc. and then they will go completely missing in the next phase. Currently, I think we are in that later period now - it looks totally out of their depth to really do something for the enthusiasts. Sadly the alliance with Toyota has taken them further back in their shell. If they change gear, the first priority should be a 6 speed AT for their commuter cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadMonkey View Post
These joys of life are what make it more than mere survival while dealing with life's troubles.
Indians totally miss this picture in general. The idea of working hard, being successful and then enjoying the fruits of that hardship and sacrifices with some joy - be it a vacation or a machine or a house or whatever, whatever floats one's boat to rediscover. The idea is to then turn that confidence and happiness to work even harder and push higher. Sadly, most are inside the shell with Maruti - saying this is all that is going to happen in this country. If the thinking is such, we will never get out. With all that is going around, I think the time is really right for that positive push forward. And the powers that be should help here - by making changes. Starting probably with the stupid small car rule perhaps - the biggest stumbling block for getting us the cars that shouldn't exist!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
BUT: will only consider an internationally-sold model to ensure long-term aftermarket parts/service support isn't a headache, and minimize reliance on manufacturer beyond factory warranty period.
Well said! This should be more like GT TSi part II than Abarth Punto II.
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Old 30th November 2020, 10:40   #30
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Re: Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India

Voted yes.

Already have one. Abarth is my daily driver. I personally prefer small cars with sorted dynamics and lot of power. I am not much interested in gizmos that comes with latest smaller cars (which lack performance & handling in general).

Even in city, I find it easy to drive abarth (may be I am used to it now). Overtaking is ridiculously easy. Car speakers have been updated, bumper to bumper traffic doesn't really bother me.

On highways, it is a beast. Can do unmentionable speeds all day long with total composure. Only chink in the armour is lower FE than average smaller cars, but I don't really keep track of it.

Happy to report that, support from Jeep/Fiat service center in Thane is good. So I am not much worried about near future.

Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India-img_20191223_072811.jpg

Potent Hatchbacks - The car that shouldn't exist - GR Yaris equivalent for India-img_20191218_125643.jpg
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