[kiku007]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Completely deserved as well. LR's trucks are atrociously made and horribly difficult to service - I remember one of the Freelander diesels needed the engine out to replace a turbo. Every time I see someone buy one of these, I think they're either blessed with more money than sense, or just don't care. Normally, it's a combination of both, which is why they were so popular with the tinseltown lot.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Not only India, even Internationally - LRs are just pure junk according to many off-road forums. Decades ago, the LRs were excellent cars, not so today. Every brand has more planned obsolescence built it now than 20 years ago, but I feel LR takes it too far.

Think of it, why do hardcore off-roaders in Australia / Africa use only Toyotas, Isuzus, Fords (sometimes), or Mitsubishis? Simple reason: They will never let you stranded, are easy to fix, and rarely break down.

I wanted to reply after I have made my first off-roading trip on a Toyota Prado in the world’s largest sand island.

A little bit of background. The neighbourhood I live has heaps of Land Rovers and I see them regularly at the school and shops and such. I have a friend who has an LR Disco which he takes out and about towing all sorts of things. He’s a war veteran and loves his Disco. Even my wife’s colleague has an Evoque and I understand it works fine. I always wondered what’s all this trash talk on the internet about LR’s reliability but I’m seeing these cars always on the road and it’s not like they are out of action. These aren’t the typical Indian tinsel town people who have many cars at their disposal. They do really mind if the car doesn’t work in the morning.

Then I see posts that LRs are garage queens or driveway ornaments that aren’t used for serious off-roading.

I was on the island for 4 days which had varying degrees of off-roading and beach driving. These aren’t purpose-built off-road tracks, but these are places which are accessible only by 4WDs. You can google for Fraser Island and NGKALA to understand more. I saw many Discoveries and Range Rovers there. There was even an Evoque. I didn’t see a Velar though. Some of the Range Rovers were hauling big caravans on the beach at ease.

Toyotas, Fords, Mitsubishis, ISUZUs, Nissans and even the VW Amaroks formed the majority of the vehicles I saw, but the LR vehicles were there too. It’s not like they don’t exist off-road. 95% of the rental 4WD vehicles were Toyota LC or Prado. Jimny was offered too. But is it right to conclude that Land Rovers will let people stranded?

I’m not an SUV person at all and I have almost little to no knowledge about them but I have stated what I saw.

JLR isn’t doing themselves any favour by screwing up the cars that they gave to TFL. Even Doug Demuro had complained of a door trim piece coming off his new Defender. Without a doubt, JLR's QC needs to improve. I’m of the opinion that Land Rovers aren’t Toyotas in terms of reliability and maybe some of their models have a bad history with reliability and their QC needs to catch-up but I wouldn’t call the new vehicles trash.

Also from where I am, I don’t think it’s right to paint a picture that LR owners are snobs who don’t care about reliability.

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

No, I don't have any information about the nature of the issue. I don't know why people create so much fuss over Land Rover/Range Rover. In the JD Power reliability study in Europe, Land Rovers still get higher scores than Audi and BMW, year after year. They might not be very reliable but I think they get a lot more flak than they deserve. My 2011 Range Rover Sport has been impeccable and I have driven it more than Twenty Two Thousand Kilometres in the last one year and not a single problem. In all the Land Rover/Range Rover groups that I am part of in the UK, there is one common theme - these are not fill it forget vehicles, they need proper maintenance. If maintained properly, they are not unreliable.

As I write this, we just finished a 5000 plus Kilometer drive today and my Range Rover Sport saw the blizzards of Alps to the blue waters of the Mediterranean in just over 2 weeks of continuous travel. It has not missed a beat and performed flawlessly in snow without snow-chains where other vehicles were struggling. Credit has to be given where it is due and I think Land Rovers don't get that, for whatever reason!

Thanks for sharing an owner’s perspective which adds much value than my anecdotal evidence.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

In all the Land Rover/Range Rover groups that I am part of in the UK, there is one common theme - these are not fill it forget vehicles, they need proper maintenance. If maintained properly, they are not unreliable.

This is the crux. A similarly priced or cheaper Japanese SUV with similar power/space/capability is fill-and-forget. Heck, 99% of cars today are. Even Ferraris come with 7 year unlimited warranty nowadays - gone are the days of temperamental Italians. By and large, customers are not willing to settle for anything less than near-perfect reliability with minimal upkeep. LR is asking for too much for their typical profile of consumers (no offence) to also be enthusiasts who care about this stuff.

Originally Posted by kiku007

Also from where I am, I don’t think it’s right to paint a picture that LR owners are snobs who don’t care about reliability.

My comment, which you quoted, was about the film industry in India specifically. I can guarantee you that most, if not all B'wood LR/RR owners have never gone off-road anyway.

Having worked with the folks at JLR in their home base, I can safely say that their engineering standards are not nearly as good as the Japanese, or even the Germans.

[BlackPearl]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

This is the crux. A similarly priced or cheaper Japanese SUV with similar power/space/capability is fill-and-forget. Heck, 99% of cars today are. Even Ferraris come with 7 year unlimited warranty nowadays - gone are the days of temperamental Italians. By and large, customers are not willing to settle for anything less than near-perfect reliability with minimal upkeep. LR is asking for too much for their typical profile of consumers (no offence) to also be enthusiasts who care about this stuff.

But the comparison is not fair. Since I drive the Range Rover Sport, which car would you compare with it in the UK? The Land Cruiser Prado which is sold as the Land Cruiser in UK? Does the Prado offer the same kind of driving experience on road as the RRS? No, not even close. Does the Prado have all the bells and whistles of the RRS? No. The RRS is a much more complicated car and as a result it will need more upkeep than the Prado. But the driving experience is also far better and I think there are many people who are willing to pay for that without complaining about the additional maintenance. All I am saying is that you can't buy a Range Rover with the mind set of buying a Toyota. I have a neighbour who has a 2006 Vogue and it drives like new, just because he maintains it properly!

[sodapop]

Range Rovers might not be unreliable in the truest sense but they do need a lot of care and maintenance and are definitely prone to a variety of QC issues. Yes they have improved multifolds from the times of Ford ownership but still aren't any match for the luxury biggies like Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus etc. The JD Power surveys attached below echo the same sentiment

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

In the JD Power reliability study in Europe, Land Rovers still get higher scores than Audi and BMW, year after year.]

Well it doesn't seem like it. Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Acura and even brands like Chrysler are ranked higher

[BlackPearl]

Originally Posted by sodapop

Well it doesn't seem like it. Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Acura and even brands like Chrysler are ranked higher

In UK it is a bit different as per the reports and I think I had mentioned Europe JD Power Study. Here are the results for the last 3 years and Land Rover has performed better than Audi and BMW and yet people keep on saying that BMW and Audi have less problems!

2019


2018


2017

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

But the comparison is not fair. Since I drive the Range Rover Sport, which car would you compare with it in the UK? The Land Cruiser Prado which is sold as the Land Cruiser in UK? Does the Prado offer the same kind of driving experience on road as the RRS? No, not even close. Does the Prado have all the bells and whistles of the RRS? No.

According to WhatCar, the RR Sport is 50% more expensive than the LC (Prado) is, at new retail prices. That's not a like-like comparison, and yet the Toyota is more reliable.

The Lexus LX 570 and the full size Range Rover are within $ 5000 of each other in the US. That's a better comparison. Both are luxury SUVs.

Edit:

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

In UK it is a bit different as per the reports and I think I had mentioned Europe JD Power Study. Here are the results for the last 3 years and Land Rover has performed better than Audi and BMW and yet people keep on saying that BMW and Audi have less problems!

You'll notice that JLR products still bring up the rear - the best performance is 5th from last.

There is also a well-understood bias with JDP data - they are self reported. For example, an XJ owner is less likely to be nitpicky and report what she considers faults because the car is based on 10+ year old platform and is thus much cheaper. She will thus be happy with perceived value and this will increase the score because less complaints. I cannot remember the exact name for this phenomenon, but it is widely circulated/discussed in industry. I'll try and dig up something on it.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

My comment, which you quoted, was about the film industry in India specifically. I can guarantee you that most, if not all B'wood LR/RR owners have never gone off-road anyway.

And most Endy, Fortuner owners in India take their vehicles off-road for us to draw similar conclusions around reliability or capability? IIRC Ford was selling more 4X2 Endys than 4X4.

I do understand the target clientele in India. That's not the only kind of people who own LR/RRs here where I am. They are accessible for anyone making decent dough.


Anyways, I'll sign off what I saw this morning. A SUV.



This one has sold more in the USA in 2020 than the previous generation's entire time in the USA. I hope they all aren't snobs or ignorant.

"The goofy new Defender you see above has good reason to smile. It took the new Defender less than a year to exceed sales figures set by its predecessor, which was last sold in the American market from the early-to-late ’90s.
Throughout the original’s entire four-year run (1993-97), Land Rover sold 6,913 of the old Defenders in the U.S. By contrast, in just the last six months of 2020 Land Rover managed to sell 9,115 of the new Defenders, despite an ongoing pandemic and amid supply shortages, Automotive News reports."



Source: https://jalopnik.com/the-new-land-ro...art-1846034125

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by kiku007

And most Endy, Fortuner owners in India take their vehicles off-road for us to draw similar conclusions around reliability or capability? IIRC Ford was selling more 4X2 Endys than 4X4.

And a Fortuner is known to last 300k kms easily but just basic regular maintenance, even if you take it offroad. There are plenty of examples on the forum. I would like a Land Rover, infact any Land Rover, to do that as consistently and regularly as a Toyota.

Australia is one of the toughest off-road market in the world. There is a reason why they buy a top of the line brand new LC200, cut it in half and then extend the wheel base and put a canopy at the back to make it into a perfect luxury ute offroader.

Originally Posted by kiku007

Anyways, I'll sign off what I saw this morning. A SUV.

Attachment 2107690

This one has sold more in the USA in 2020 than the previous generation's entire time in the USA. I hope they all aren't snobs or ignorant.

The previous Defender was ancient with no creature comforts, power or on road refinement to speak and hence appealed to a very very niche market. The new Defender is a luxury car and anyone who was previously thinking about lets say getting a Land Rover Discovery or any of the other SUV's can now get this one. I dont think this one is selling for its off-road prowess anyway. That is just incidental.

Also if they were really serious about longevity and off roading, they would have given it a live axle at the back and not an independent suspension all around. Because now they have to rely on air suspension for articulation (destined to fail) and electronics for traction in sticky scenarios. Infact you can buy a Hilux, lift it up, put 35inch offroad tyres and suspension, updated ARB front and rear lockers, metal front bumper, bar work around the sides and a winch for quite a bit less than the price of a brand new Defender diesel, mid-spec and it will be able to go places where only few cars can, and reliably at that.

[kiku007]

I do understand and appreciate what you say but isn't combining utility and luxury the USP of LR/RR?

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by kiku007

I do understand and appreciate what you say but isn't combining utility and luxury the USP of LR/RR?

It is but not the Defender. Look at what Ford did with the Bronco or Jeep for that matter. They are still in the off road niche, and mostly more than decent on the road. Defender in my opinion is no longer in the same niche. In the process it might even cannibalise some of Discovery sales. It should because if I was a Discovery buyer, I will be having a long and a very hard look at Defender instead.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

And a Fortuner is known to last 300k kms easily but just basic regular maintenance, even if you take it offroad. There are plenty of examples on the forum. I would like a Land Rover, infact any Land Rover, to do that as consistently and regularly as a Toyota.

Australia is one of the toughest off-road market in the world. There is a reason why they buy a top of the line brand new LC200, cut it in half and then extend the wheel base and put a canopy at the back to make it into a perfect luxury ute offroader.

Australia is a tough off-road market, no doubt about that. Toyota is a hallowed name, which is also why most common folks don't look beyond that marque. However, Toyota is not the epitome of reliability as it used to be. There is an ongoing class action lawsuit against defective Toyotas which include the Fortuner, Hilux and Prado.

https://www.toyotaclassaction.com.au/

Infact you can buy a Hilux, lift it up, put 35inch offroad tyres and suspension, updated ARB front and rear lockers, metal front bumper, bar work around the sides and a winch for quite a bit less than the price of a brand new Defender diesel, mid-spec and it will be able to go places where only few cars can, and reliably at that.

Reliability. Owners are not so confident anymore, as above.

As per the lawsuit:

The class action alleges that:
•certain models of Toyota motor vehicle in the Hilux, Prado and Fortuner ranges fitted with a 1GD-FTV engine or 2GD-FTV engine are defective;
•these vehicles fail to comply with the statutory guarantee as to acceptable quality provided under the Australian Consumer Law; and
•Toyota Australia has engaged in conduct that was misleading or deceptive and which, in the circumstances, was unconscionable.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

Australia is a tough off-road market, no doubt about that. Toyota is a hallowed name, which is also why most common folks don't look beyond that marque. However, Toyota is not the epitome of reliability as it used to be. There is an ongoing class action lawsuit against defective Toyotas which include the Fortuner, Hilux and Prado.

https://www.toyotaclassaction.com.au/

I did not say Toyota is the only choice. The original discussion was Toyota vs Land Rover and its a no contest.

Also that class action suit is mostly about DPF issues which are well documented and Toyota already increased the warranty for those engine to 10 years and unlimited kilometers

https://www.caradvice.com.au/895546/...esel%20engines.

Originally Posted by benbsb29

Reliability. Owners are not so confident anymore, as above.

As per the lawsuit:

The class action alleges that:
•certain models of Toyota motor vehicle in the Hilux, Prado and Fortuner ranges fitted with a 1GD-FTV engine or 2GD-FTV engine are defective;
•these vehicles fail to comply with the statutory guarantee as to acceptable quality provided under the Australian Consumer Law; and
•Toyota Australia has engaged in conduct that was misleading or deceptive and which, in the circumstances, was unconscionable.

This is typical lawyers speak to be honest. If the owners/buyers have indeed lost confidence I am not sure how Hilux saw a YOY growth of over 42% in Dec 2020 and is also consistently the highest selling ute in Australia month over month. It also does well in fleet sales which is not indictment of its unreliability but its good reliability. Prado which has the same engine also increased it sales YOY by almost 80%

https://www.canstar.com.au/car-insur...-selling-cars/

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

It is but not the Defender. Look at what Ford did with the Bronco or Jeep for that matter. They are still in the off road niche, and mostly more than decent on the road. Defender in my opinion is no longer in the same niche. In the process it might even cannibalise some of Discovery sales. It should because if I was a Discovery buyer, I will be having a long and a very hard look at Defender instead.

Sorry to take the thread off-topic but I think the LR-RR vehicles are being heavily prejudiced whatever they do. It doesn't seem to matter even if they sell well.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Sorry to take the thread off-topic but I think the LR-RR vehicles are being heavily prejudiced whatever they do. It doesn't seem to matter even if they sell well.

It is not prejudice to state facts - the fact being that they arent as reliable and it has got nothing to do with sales. The brand cachet is just too high for some people to just ignore reliability or not place it as high on their list of reasons to buy which is fine as well. It is their money and choice.

Heck if I had the money to buy and maintain one when used for its intended purpose, I would have gone ahead and bought it too.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Also that class action suit is mostly about DPF issues which are well documented and Toyota already increased the warranty for those engine to 10 years and unlimited kilometres

Toyota for sure didn't do that out of the goodness of their heart. It did take lawsuits and ACCC threats to make that happen.

This is typical lawyers speak to be honest. If the owners/buyers have indeed lost confidence I am not sure how Hilux saw a YOY growth of over 42% in Dec 2020 and is also consistently the highest selling ute in Australia month over month. It also does well in fleet sales which is not indictment of its unreliability but its good reliability. Prado which has the same engine also increased it sales YOY by almost 80%

https://www.canstar.com.au/car-insur...-selling-cars/

Agree with the sales numbers analogy. By the same yardstick the Ford Ranger was also right up there giving strong competition to the Hilux. Yet we don't see the Ranger or Endeavour being called the symbol of reliability.

Anyway, the thread was started with a vague Instagram post not giving much details of an issue, which has since been deleted. Promoting or advertising an Instagram post comes real cheap, so I don't see why we are giving it too much importance.