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Old 26th January 2021, 22:51   #61
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Originally Posted by SN88 View Post
Wow that sounds amazing !! I am fascinated of such kind who take their passion beyond just a hobby

Imagine if there were such repair cafe's even working for a good profit beginning to mushroom over. It would change the entire scene of choices at hand for people who prefer keeping their cars long term. Just specialising in refurbishing parts of known issues in cars
It won't in any developed country. What they are doing works because they are not charging for their time. Like Jeroen has mentioned before as well, in countries like his, the hourly wage for any technician capable of doing such work will usually make repairing the part as much if not more costly than replacing it.
Yes, overhauling a part instead of buying a replacement does work, but only in case of super expensive parts for some collectible equipments and not for normal commercial products.
India is a different story because of cheap labor availability, but again as he pointed out, that labor is usually cheap because of their level of competence.

Moving to a farm has made me more hands on and amenable to DIY stuff. Earlier I was very adept at handling phone repairs (even then I was only capable of replacing parts), but now I plan to become proficient and more knowledgeable at carrying out all sorts of repairs. Already able to handle most plumbing and electrical work at my house/farm, but that is very very basic work, but still something most of the local plumbers/electricians can't do properly due to lack of knowledge and no incentive to use their brains.
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Old 26th January 2021, 23:18   #62
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Maybe Some sort of company refurbished parts so that it would make sense to put a refurbished part in a 5-7 year old car for a lesser price than putting a new part ( not talking about fake spares) Just a thought ..
In the US, you can get factory remanufactured transmissions for a few popular trucks. It is a big business as the transmission is weakest link in a truck like the F-150.

This is usually the best option as the brand has a lot of information on the parts that break or wear out and replace them with quality spares.

If there's a business case, the companies will do it.
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:15   #63
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People who are saying older electronics don't work and used to be crap -
Let me compare the CD Players I have which come from different points in the past 30 years

1. Rotel RCD 855. $450 MSRP in 1990. Bulletproof - based on the CDM 4/19 transport and TDA1541 DAC which puts even most current flagship DACs to shame - Mid Priced end hifi
2. JVC XL304TN - $160 Retail in 1992 - Budget Changer - JVC Transport and JVC first gen delta sigma DAC - average sound quality - still running without repairs
3. Sony DVP S570D - $600 MSRP (and around half that) in 2000 - Beginning to see the first signs of cost cutting - a vlsi board with barely sufficient heatsinking with a history of overheating - The second DVD player (first one overheated and had to be replaced). PS: the other Sony "disc" player in the background has not needed any repairs other than the occasional new stylus
4. Onkyo C7030 - $250 in 2011. Plagued with Transport reliability issues - even replacement transports last only a few years. In fact, any new CDP under $500 has the same set of issues. Yes that pic was taken when i had to change the laser. In the US, a laser replacement would cost half the price of the player - and most people would rather buy a new one and that's how i got mine - $25 non working)

All this while my 90's CD players chug along just fine. I am not looking or dvd/mp3/sacd/dsd/ whatever flavour of the month tech is out there - just something to play back CD's reliably.


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Old 27th January 2021, 11:45   #64
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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
In the US, you can get factory remanufactured transmissions for a few popular trucks. It is a big business as the transmission is weakest link in a truck like the F-150.

This is usually the best option as the brand has a lot of information on the parts that break or wear out and replace them with quality spares.

If there's a business case, the companies will do it.
This is what I was referring to as well. It would make a lot of sense even business wise. As for the buyer its a brilliant option and even more so for used car buyers who would want to upgrade their c segment to a bit more complicated used D segment cars.

Not sure how the car manufacturers would react to such development in India.
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Old 27th January 2021, 13:59   #65
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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
In the US, you can get factory remanufactured transmissions for a few popular trucks. It is a big business as the transmission is weakest link in a truck like the F-150.

This is usually the best option as the brand has a lot of information on the parts that break or wear out and replace them with quality spares.

If there's a business case, the companies will do it.
Next to actual factory re-manufacturing:

There are lots of companies around the US and other places (e.g. Europe) that will provide overhauled parts, in line with manufacturing specifications. Obviously, transmissions, but also parts like brake calipers, steering boxes, starter motors, dynamo’s and of course whole engines too!

To my earlier point, these tend to be subassemblies to the manufacturer, So neither they, nor their dealer network is likely to have the tools nor the know how to overhaul it.

But with a good volume for these sort of components, you can make a good business out of it. I just replaced the brakes on my Alfa Spider with Re-furbished calipers. Can’t tell the difference from new. And they are about half the cost.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/diy-d...ml#post4966367 (My Car Hobby: A lot of fiddling, and some driving too! Jaguar XJR, Mercedes W123 & Alfa Romeo Spider)

For instance Denzo, the well known OEM car parts supplier here in the Netherlands offered overhaul service on some of their parts (e.g. starter motors).

I find that a lot of people, tend not to be comfortable with having overhauled parts. My wife would never agree, she believes new is better. So again, there could be a sentimental reason for not going this way.

But, when done properly, there is no reason why certain parts can not be overhauled to new condition. It is just a case of economics. If there is a business case, somebody will offer the service.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 27th January 2021 at 14:10.
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Old 27th January 2021, 14:39   #66
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If I had read only the original post, and not the replies, I would probably have agreed with him. However, after going through some of the posts, I can't agree fully.

I had bought a Tata Indigo LX Diesel TDi in 2010 for 5.5 lakhs (5.25 after discounts). The car was the original compact sedan, and came with HVAC, power steering, 4 door power windows, fog lamps, defogger, and that's it. No audio system, no ABS, Airbags. The only safety feature on it was seat belts, and Tata's solid steel. The engine was an old school turbo diesel, and was fairly reliable. We kept it till 2016.

On the tech side, I also bought a Nokia flip phone for 10K in 2010, which had a tiny screen, about 32MB of memory, and could take really grainy, blurry photos and play MP3 songs. I also had a 256MB SD card that I paid about 1200 for.

My sister bought an Spresso VXi(O) AMT in 2020. She paid almost 5.8 lakhs for it. That seems a lot, but it has AMT automatic transmission, HVAC, Power Steering, Front PW, a feature rich touchscreen audio system, and most importantly, ABS and 2 Airbags. It's pretty small, and has half the luggage space and a bit less passenger space than the Indigo CS. It's also lighter, quicker and overall, a better car in every way. Every feature that was available only in 15L-20L cars in 2010 is present in this entry level hatchback.

Reg. other tech, Last year I bought a phone for 12K, which has 5 cameras, 8GB/128GB, (which is more than my old laptop has), can hold 2 4G sims, streams and records 4K video, and takes 32MP selfies and 48MP "other-fies". In 2010, the most expensive phone was a Vertu, which was basically a Nokia covered in leather and studded with diamonds.

When you compare the inflation from 2010 to 2020, it's about 97%. 5.5 lakhs in 2010 would be almost 11 lakhs in today's money, which can get you a fully loaded Nissan Magnite CVT, or any compact sedan, or a top of the line hatchback.

The Indigo Diesel served us well, and because we maintained it regularly and took good care of it, it didn't cost us much in service/spares.

The Ecosport TDCi I bought in 2016 also didn't cost me much, mainly because I had taken the extended warranty, and signed up for combo service offers whenever available. Also, my usage was very limited (<40k kms till date).

I don't think that the modern cars are as susceptible to suspension/ECU/steering issues as the older gen cars. Our Indigo was extremely prone to suspension bushes getting torn/cut while hitting potholes, and the only relief was that the parts were cheap. The original shocks were about at their end of life at 70K kms, when we sold her. The Ecosport is much more abuse friendly, and seems to be holding up very well so far.

But the OP refers to higher segment cars being too expensive to maintain and that's a true fact. Since almost all of the high-end cars are CBUs, and excise duty and taxes are exorbitant, the idea of owning even a decade old high end car remains out of reach for the average, middle class car enthusiast. If you were in say, UK, or anywhere in Europe, these cars would have sold enough that you'd be able to get replacement parts from car wreckers, scrap yards, and even the OEM prices would be fairly reasonable, due to a more reasonable and less punishing tax regime.

The core issue here is that personal vehicles are still considered a luxury rather than a necessity, and there is the mindset that if you have a personal vehicle, then you can be fleeced via taxes, more so if you desire a bigger vehicle. Which is why we're still paying almost 90 Rs for a litre of petrol, even though they're basically giving crude oil away.

Look at the 'Rotting Imports' thread on our forum, and we can see the result of all this. Perfectly good vehicles, left to rot because of our government's greed. And it is not just about enthusiasts missing out on opportunities to own these beauties either, it's about sustainability. A new car uses up an immense amount of resources, and leaves a huge carbon footprint. Studies have shown that switching to a new hybrid/electric car may end up hurting the environment more than keeping the current car, because of all the transportation of materials and parts involved in making the new car, which are sourced from all over the world.
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Old 27th January 2021, 17:59   #67
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Hi all.
The intention of this thread was not a debate on older is better than newer.

The topic focused on whether i am being a conspiracy theorist that while equipment and technology has become better but at the cost of durability in the interest of capitalism.

I mentioned that personally I do enjoy the newer cars but have an issue with durability.

Some of you have taken it out of context and made it older vs newer which is better.

One gentleman has taken it personally that i am critical of newer vehicles etc which is not the case. I am only asking are manufacturers ON PURPOSE not making full use of the potential of the tech available to make cars better and EQUALLY durable.
What would happen if the DSG gear box becomes as reliable as a standard AT. Would it hurt the sales or benefit the manufacturer as an owner would not sell their car after 6 years for eg and use for another 6?

Are car companies really trying to make them durable or just enjoyable for a limited period of ownership.
Well, I honestly don't think that there is any deliberate conspiracy going on. You should remember that things are much more cheaper nowadays. When gold was at 300 Rs per gram a M800 used to cost 200k. Now you get an equivalent car for maybe 500k, but look at gold, it costs nearly 15 times compared to that time. From that point of view, I think we are getting good VFM , at least in the car segment. So things have actually become cheaper because money value has gone down. With the amount you spent getting smaller, the manufacturers are also forced to cost cut to stay in the competition. So things might not last that long. But I definitely don't think there is any conspiracy involved.
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Old 27th January 2021, 21:41   #68
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The sort of obsolescence being discussed here is not a technical one. It is purely an economic one. In many cases it is just more efficient to replace a whole unit, or a whole subassembly. Rather than to try and identify a fault at a component level. The days of soldering components on a PCB are beyond us. That has led to a drastically increased reliability and unit cost price reduction.
Once upon a time, electronics were considered "durable" items. today due to the rapid pace of change in the electronics industry, they are considered "consumable" items. You are right in that very few people are going to bother replacing the battery on a pair of apple earpods because by the time the battery has reached the end of its life, the bluetooth and audio codecs would have become stone age. But then the same standard is being applied to electronics which are more durable "ish"

Manufacturing techniques are optimize more for manufacture than repair. Due to the wide disparity in the cost of manufacturing in china vs the cost of service in a first world country, we have an unusual situation where its often cheaper to make a product from scratch, than try to repair it. Economically, it makes absolute sense, but ecologically, It's a disaster. thankfully, countries are waking up to it, and implementing reparability and right to repair regulations.

Coming back to the diode example. Today - this is probably not even possible on a modern headlight. The whole thing is probably sealed, and even if you mange to open it up, you may find everything running off a custom LED controller which is no longer available. And to make things worse, the OEM would have made it with parts from the lowest quality bidder AND blocked generic manufacturers from making it by using patents or trademarks.

That day is already here
https://jalopnik.com/why-a-cadillac-...use-1840556672
This was something entirely preventable, but now a car has become a disposable item because the OEM decided to save a few cents during manufacture. Basically
1. Miniaturization and Integration
2. Optimization for Manufacture v Repair
3. Deliberate Use of Proprietary parts
4. Use of legal means to restrict supply of parts and scope of repairs
5. Cost cutting
6. Significantly Lower costs of Remote manufacturing

Together have created a hell where things don't last at all and we are stuck in an endless loop of rebuying
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Old 27th January 2021, 22:01   #69
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My first Samsung LED TV (2005) is brilliant. None of my TV's (2010, 2017) have gone kaput, ever, touch wood. None of my cars/bikes have had any issues. House electronics, laptops, phones, kitchen items; are all perfect. I give stuff away due to boredom. It also depends how you take care of things. The newer generation is quite careless, I feel. This is a new angle to the debate.

Last edited by Sebring : 27th January 2021 at 22:26.
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Old 27th January 2021, 22:32   #70
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It's true that you get more for your money now in terms of features but it's also true that the durability and repairability of those items has been diminished either due to increased complexity or due to manufacturer compromises or the manufacturer purposely making it hard or impossible to do do, like Apple does or like how Tesla refuses to sell spares and can deactivate features OTA.
As we move towards electric cars or even fully connected cars, it's quite clear that they are turning into appliances rather than cars and it's not fully clear who is in control and owns the vehicle, the customer or the manufacturer ?

Also w.r.t. the statements about a 5 lakh car in 2000 only having a CD player whereas a 5 lakh car today equivalent to a 2 lakh car then has a touchscreen, etc, keep in mind that even accounting for inflation, etc if say the music system cost the manufacturer 5% of the cars value then, its modern equivalent still costs the manufacturer 5% of the cars value now. Also consider economies of scale, a lot more people are buying cars and gadgets now than there were back in the day so there is some parity in costs of the new with the old.

There is one more thing to consider, manufacturers regularly raise prices at the very least every January , so much so that we have unfortunately become accustomed to it. Manufacturers cite reasons like increased input costs, especially of Steel. I have a photo somewhere I took of an Economic Times a couple of years ago.
On the front page was an article saying that auto manufacturers are raising prices due to increase in steel prices. On page 3 was an article on how global steel prices have dropped sharply. So which article is true ? Are we all chumps or do cars only use one particular type of steel whose prices never come down ? Things like this is why we are paying Rs 100+ for a litre of petrol today
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Old 27th January 2021, 22:50   #71
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Once upon a time, electronics were considered "durable" items. today due to the rapid pace of change in the electronics industry, they are considered "consumable" items. You are right in that very few people are going to bother replacing the battery on a pair of apple earpods because by the time the battery has reached the end of its life, the bluetooth and audio codecs would have become stone age. But then the same standard is being applied to electronics which are more durable "ish"


Together have created a hell where things don't last at all and we are stuck in an endless loop of rebuying
I didn't quote the whole post, but this is exactly what I've been feeling and I couldn't articulate myself like you did, so thanks for your post.

Some people are still writing long posts on the benefits of the new technology and no one denied that in the first place. What I've been trying to say is that the design and manufacturing processes are now geared towards replacement rather than repair.

I am going to give a very simple example. Almost everyone these days (not only these days, but even in case of my house built in 1995) goes for concealed plumbing in the house. And when a leak occurs, it causes such a huge issue. Our plumbing survived for 15 years which people would still say is long enough, but when I was redoing it, instead of removing all the tiles and then tear out the old pipes, I just went with exposed pipes which was what used to happen earlier. I went with exposed pipes even after we have a whole water cleaning system now which ensures no sediments make it to the water tank and hence the pipes won't get clogged. Even the exposed pipes have so many union joints that the shopkeeper asked me what am I gonna do with so many union joints. I have designed the system so that everything can be taken apart and put back together easily if any repairs need to be carried out in the future. Sure, all the exposed piping doesn't look futuristic/beautiful but it will last much longer and even if something breaks down, it will be easily repairable without having to pull down the tiles or the walls.

Last edited by rdst_1 : 27th January 2021 at 22:51.
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Old 28th January 2021, 03:03   #72
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This is what I was referring to as well. It would make a lot of sense even business wise.
Not really, it is in the best interest of the company to make sure you buy a new car. If there was a market for Honda India to make remanufactured parts for a 15 year Honda Citys, they would. Due to the nature of the Indian market, the volumes are low and the competition (for remanufactured parts) is inexistent as the average joe buys a new car every 5-7 years.

Not many in India keep their car beyond 10 years, but 10+ year old cars are common in the US & maybe parts of Europe.
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
For instance Denzo, the well known OEM car parts supplier here in the Netherlands offered overhaul service....

I find that a lot of people, tend not to be comfortable with having overhauled parts. My wife would never agree.....
It is very similar to buying a used car. Some people (I'm not blaming them) like my parents aren't willing (or don't have the bandwidth) to do the due diligence for buying a used car like some BHPians. So, they prefer new cars(or parts). To each his own, I guess.

You're right - the economics should work out! But what do you do when your 10 year old work truck has a damaged transmission ? If your option of a remanufactured (from a factory or a reliable third party) one is $3,500 vs $35,000 for a new truck, we know what will be choice for most people.
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Old 28th January 2021, 19:22   #73
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It's true that you get more for your money now in terms of features but it's also true that the durability and repairability of those items has been diminished either due to increased complexity or due to manufacturer compromises or the manufacturer purposely making it hard or impossible to do do, like Apple does or like how Tesla refuses to sell spares and can deactivate features OTA.
As we move towards electric cars or even fully connected cars, it's quite clear that they are turning into appliances rather than cars and it's not fully clear who is in control and owns the vehicle, the customer or the manufacturer ?
Very aptly pointed out!! Even if it is possible to repair, the costs make it irrational to do so. Either way I guess this is what it is now and slowly everyone will adapt, even upset ones like me who love to keep their cars for the longest possible time

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
It is very similar to buying a used car. Some people (I'm not blaming them) like my parents aren't willing (or don't have the bandwidth) to do the due diligence for buying a used car like some BHPians. So, they prefer new cars(or parts). To each his own, I guess.

But what do you do when your 10 year old work truck has a damaged transmission ? If your option of a remanufactured (from a factory or a reliable third party) one is $3,500 vs $35,000 for a new truck, we know what will be choice for most people.
I belong to a family which always bought brand new cars. The time i moved to the middle east for a while and bought a used much much fun and better car in the budget of a normal new car I completely changed. Swore never to buy a brand new one as you save so much! Parts were easily available, service was no issue etc. ( Bought a 2 year old BMW 530i done 15,000 kms with extendable warranty in the budget of a new Honda accord )

Now after being back my family is the same, not convinced to buy a used upper segment car and I get it why now. The headache of finding parts and getting them repaired outside the company workshops just isn't feasible in our country yet. At least for non experts who would not know exactly what to do when something complicated goes off and be taken for a ride!!

If re manufactured / refurbished parts such as transmission / after market sensors etc were available, i think the used market for such cars would jump through the roof. If only....


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Old 29th January 2021, 10:50   #74
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I was talking to a dear friend and we discussed how older laptops used to last for 8- 10 years, older cellphones would last till it broke, TV'S would cross 6-7 years easy, older electrical appliances ac, refrigerators would just not die out compared to newer models which now last for maybe 4-5 years and start troubling so much that you go and buy a new one.

The same discussion then moved to cars and we realised that cars are following the same trend. Engines are made even better but a car doesn't run only on the engine right? Most of the newer cars say post 2010 - 2012 have fantastic engines that make us feel WHAT A CAR and then you realise post 5 years that the engine is perfect but the gear boxes start to go off, the suspensions instead of just a few parts need a complete overhaul, steering racks go bad , ECU malfunctions, megatronics going bust etc. These are extremely expensive to replace. Most of the buyers for used cars fall prey to this. They find a higher segment car going cheap and get excited then check the engine and find it perfect and go for a used car thinking the rest can be repaired / managed and then this reality hits that replacing a thing as a chip costs 30% of the buying cost!!

So is it something that is deliberately done or am I behaving like a conspiracy nut?
How can so many older cars run so easily, without glitches, stress free ? I dont believe the notion that newer cars have a lot of computers that is why they have issues, This doesnt make sense. I am sure they can make a proper computer then!!
Maybe the companies the automobile, electronic, electrical ones just would like people to subscribe but know that people wont , so twist it this way!! Make something enjoyable for 5 years and then the product goes bad due to one of the above reasons and the end customer sells it and moves to a new one?

I would like to apologise if this post seems ridiculous to some experts !!
Not ridiculous at all, I completely resonate with you on this. Products whether cars or otherwise, are not developed to solve human problems. They are developed to encash human problems, make use of their differential ability to afford something, and tailor-make a solution that sellers/marketeers can upgrade to make you aspire for it. How else will demand be generated - by push. Why will you buy an updated version - Mr Maslow knew why. If anything, the fact that I have to change my phone every 2-3 years is irking for me personally.
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Old 29th January 2021, 18:35   #75
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Slightly OT, Italy consumer association sues Apple for planned iPhone obsolescence.

Quote:
MILAN (Reuters) - Italian consumer association Altroconsumo said on Monday it had told Apple it has launched a class action against the U.S. tech giant for the practice of planned obsolescence.

In a statement Altroconsumo said it was asking for damages of 60 million euros ($73 million) on behalf of Italian consumers tricked by the practice which had also been recognised by Italian authorities.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...ource=facebook
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