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Old 26th January 2021, 10:34   #46
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

Gentlemen, please refrain from personal attacks.

A civilized discussion will help everyone. As a millennial, I'll tell you that the world is moving to a "replace, don't (or can't) repair" mentality. Even if not directly planned obsolescence, I think technology is evolving at a fast pace & getting complicated that repairs are becoming more costly & rare.

Although I'm a DIY guy, I see a lot of 25-year-olds who would just throw away things like Vacuum cleaners don't work whereas I and a lot of 50 year-olds I know would try to repair it. Right from the iPhone battery-gate to "filled for life" automatic transmissions, I believe that "Planned Obsolescence" is becoming the mantra of businesses. Could be indirectly due to the complicated technology, but it affects everyone now.

Let me share 2 examples from my side:
1. VWs 2.5 Inline-5 NA gas engine: When I got a job in the USA, I was seriously considering a used VW Jetta with the NA 2.5 liter engine with an MT. One of my colleagues warned me against it. Why? The timing chain was at the end where the engine bolts on to the transmission. His girlfriend had a timing chain rattle on her Jetta at 120k miles/192k km. While such problems aren't very surprising at that mileage, the cost of replacing the timing chain came at a shock. The estimate was nearly $2500 as the transmission and CV axles had to be removed. Needless to say, they sold the car. For reference, the same job in his Camry was done at 195k miles/314k km and cost $950 as the timing chain was in the "front" of the engine. The transmission needn't be touched! Ooh, what a surprise

2. LG Smart TV which we bought in 2011: My dad bought an LG OLED smart TV in 2011 - nothing too fancy, just a regular 55" TV. We got an extended warranty for 4 years. The TV refused to boot up in 2014 and the reason was diagnosed as a motherboard failure. Fair enough. Waited for 3 weeks and there was no response on the spare part arrival. Due to the part being out of production, the LG folks had the gall to tell us to buy a new TV at a 20% discount rather than fix the TV under warranty. My dad threatened to file a consumer case and then they came up with a solution to give us an alternate motherboard. Even today - we have one HDMI port less and no RJ45 ethernet port. After a bit of escalation, they provided us a Wi-Fi adapter free of cost to enable smart TV features to work. Compare it to the 20-year-old BPL CRT TV we have which had undergone a "motherboard" replacement in 2018. It took 2 days for local electronics repair shop to get the part for an old TV from a brand that has mostly been dead.

If these examples aren't "complicated technology" leading to "planned obsolescence," I don't know what is.

I'm willing to bet that I won't see cars made in 2020 running in 2070 as vintage cars (not as daily drivers) in the same way vintage cars from 1970 are running in 2020.

Food for thought:

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 26th January 2021 at 11:01.
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Old 26th January 2021, 10:54   #47
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

Unfortunately, numbers matter at the end of the day. The large majority of us would love to change cars every 5 years despite knowing very well that it's cheaper to use it for 10 years.

Same with electronics and other appliances. If people don't mind changing their stuff every few years, why would a manufacturer focus on product life rather than packing it with more features and keeping the product attractive in a fiercely competitive world?

Unfortunately, this strategy backfires during a recession when product life becomes a serious consideration for the large majority.
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Old 26th January 2021, 11:34   #48
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Originally Posted by rkv_2401 View Post
In this case, I think the price of India-specific R&D and a 'perfect' implementation for our roads is the prohibiting factor, not planned obsolescence. Agreed, we should demand better, but there is some mitigating factor.

But coming back to the same VAG group, they've had the ABS sensor problems in cars that have been manufactured for more than a decade. Reading posts on international forums, and talking to my seniors from college who have carried out research on ABS systems, it seems to be a problem with the harness. One of those posts that I can't find rn said that it's probably because of a wire a tiny bit too long/short shorting itself out. Either way, I believe at this point if VAG had had an incentive to fix this problem, they would be able to fix it.

And that's where I think the 'problem' is. To answer your question, I don't think they're making FULL potential of the technology available to them, and cars of this era could be made even more durable/reliable. They're simply not incentivized enough to.

My only concern is that, planned obsolescence or not, being able to repair a product is becoming harder and harder. Apple's been clamping down on this for a while, and their latest phones don't let you use the product with parts from another iPhone of the same model. I can't even change the battery in my Vento outside of the service center without being harassed by someone manning the front desk(what would a reception lady know or have to say about MY car, which she hasn't even seen in person?), or my warranty being taken away. That sort of behaviour is not okay. And I think that's where the frustration comes in for a lot of people. If a customer decides they want to take things into their own hands and experiment with a screwdriver and a spanner, I believe they should be encouraged to do so, and not condemned.

It begs the question, who owns the product? The paying customer, or the brand who sold it to them? Many brands are behaving more and more like they've signed a contract stating that you must come back to them for any repairs. They haven't, and they don't own the only right to conduct repairs to the product. .
You my friend have read my mind on what I was trying to say. Will surely put in more effort to express myself better next time and thank you

This is something that is of bother to me. I think the choice to change my car for something more fun / or to go for better features etc in a newer model should ONLY rest with me. I get a feeling being pressed down by manufacturers to change my car due to " AAGE JAAKE PROBLEM HO JAYGA" indirect threat which put questions whether to keep or change the car after a period of say 5-6 years. Yes these were prevalent even before but the problem had a REASONABLE solution. Nowdays it doesnt make any sense looking at the repair cost in some cars. Most advises you get it while buying say a Skoda is buy it with extended warranty and sell it once warranty expires.

As an example of electronics going this way, my microsoft surface pro 4 had a camera issue. I asked the service centre to fix or change the camera, they said better go for a new surface 6 and sell the surface 4. BTW my surface 4 works perfectly fine albeit the camera !

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Originally Posted by Turbohead View Post
Same with electronics and other appliances. If people don't mind changing their stuff every few years, why would a manufacturer focus on product life rather than packing it with more features and keeping the product attractive in a fiercely competitive world?

.
The answer to this question would be perhaps to give a reasonable choice to the buyer to repair / replace if the new age manufacturing focuses more on features and limited pleasurable owning than long term ownership. Let the customer decide whether he / she wants to keep using the product for another 5 years or move to the latest one.
Now i understand nobody is putting a gun to the head to not repair / replace, ofcourse they do offer but with ridiculous pricing.

If the cost of spare parts / assembly are that high as an explanation then maybe they ought to figure how to sell spares cheaper for an older car. Any ideas how they could do this ?

Last edited by vb-saan : 26th January 2021 at 12:19. Reason: Back-to-back posts merged; please use edit/multi-quote options when posting back-to-back. Thanks!
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Old 26th January 2021, 12:27   #49
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

I was thinking about this just the other day, not just with cars but with all consumer durables. Being a guy who likes to eke the life out of everything I own, planned obsolescence is something I dread. To paraphrase Jeremy Clarkson when he was reviewing the first version of the Porsche Cayman, why make something when you know it isn't as good as it can be.

The bean counters run the show, and there are far too many MBAs in the world to make these decisions for engineering. That said, I do see a point with Jeroen's argument- feel like people used to hold on to cars and other devices for longer simply because they didn't cost an arm and a leg to repair, and because people may not have had the means to keep buying new things.

Ending with a quote from director Bong Joon-Ho- "We all live in the same country- Capitalism."
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Old 26th January 2021, 13:46   #50
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

I would like to see this thread from another angle.

I would say the current technology is more reliable and long lasting than the previous generation.
Why are we even comparing them? Because we as a humans have longer life expectancy now and are living long enough to see the world change drastically.

Technology keeps taking giant leaps every 2 years now. So in human age term (average life 70 years), technology changes 35 generations. That is enough of a generation change to make them more reliable.

Though I am still in my 30s, I can still remember how our Padmini use to get hot in the middle of the journey where we had to fill it up with water or how we had to tilt our Bajaj Chetak before starting. I am yet to see the engine compartment of my Etios /WagonR or Avenger/Unicorn.

Let us come back to this thread after 10 years. I predict that a thread will come up on Teambhp titled "Why wasn't ICE cars reliable compared to Electric cars?"
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Old 26th January 2021, 14:16   #51
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

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Originally Posted by SN88 View Post
The same discussion then moved to cars and we realised that cars are following the same trend. Engines are made even better but a car doesn't run only on the engine right? Most of the newer cars say post 2010 - 2012 have fantastic engines that make us feel WHAT A CAR and then you realise post 5 years that the engine is perfect but the gear boxes start to go off, the suspensions instead of just a few parts need a complete overhaul, steering racks go bad , ECU malfunctions, megatronics going bust etc. These are extremely expensive to replace.
An important consideration is COST - given unlimited money, anything can be fixed. But so many parts of today's cars are so expensive that the major repairs on a 10-year old car compete with its book value. That's precisely why you see so many 2008 - 2009 Mercedes' & BMWs abandoned.

Then, there is the COMPLEXITY. I can get my 97 Jeep's gearbox overhauled for 20000 bucks at a Mahindra workshop. Doing up a torque-converter AT won't be tough either. Who will overhaul a VW DSG in 2030? And will the owner pay the big bucks?

I feel that some parts of today's cars will outlast their yesteryear counterparts = the body, as an example. Today's cars remain rust-free for long. Even the engines of today are far more robust and will see 3+ lakh km if maintained well. But the other expensive + complex parts make owning cars for more than 15 years an impossible task.

Of course, it's a different matter that no one wants to own cars for too long today. We are a "use & dispose" society. Hell, is there really any reason to change your smartphone every 1 - 2 years?
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Old 26th January 2021, 15:00   #52
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

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Then, there is the COMPLEXITY. I can get my 97 Jeep's gearbox overhauled for 20000 bucks at a Mahindra workshop. Doing up a torque-converter AT won't be tough either. Who will overhaul a VW DSG in 2030? And will the owner pay the big bucks?

I feel that some parts of today's cars will outlast their yesteryear counterparts = the body, as an example. Today's cars remain rust-free for long. Even the engines of today are far more robust and will see 3+ lakh km if maintained well. But the other expensive + complex parts make owning cars for more than 15 years an impossible task.
Hi GTO,
The above is a nice example for anyone who would want to keep using their vehicle for longer. As my original post mentioned the engines of today far exceed the reliability of yesteryear manufacturing and as you rightly so pointed out to the body as well. What this does to someone who is attached to his car is that they feel helpless when they think about it like the engine, interior's , suspensions , the drive , ac is perfectly fine but the price to repair some complicated issue as an ecu perhaps or the A/T box might be equivalent or close to the total car value. It just takes away any hope of repair for this chap

Isn't there any way companies could find a way to provide for parts for a depreciating car?
Maybe Some sort of company refurbished parts so that it would make sense to put a refurbished part in a 5-7 year old car for a lesser price than putting a new part ( not talking about fake spares) Just a thought ..

Last edited by SN88 : 26th January 2021 at 15:11. Reason: typo's
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Old 26th January 2021, 15:04   #53
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

I think few BHPians saw the OP's subject from a different perspective. He was not trying to compare the technology/features of products from the yesteryears to the current ones, he was just saying that the products of those days were durable or repairable - as simple as that.

For eg: A car from the 1980s can be refurbished to run in 2020 but I don't think any of the Mercs or BMWs of 2020s will be running in 2060-2070, that's it. Technically saying, for better comfort (Eg: Air suspension) and features we are forced to forget the long-term reliability.

We all just got lazy, or the current business model gifted us a " Use & Throw " mentality.

I broke the screen of my 2-year-old mobile phone last month and I was about to replace the screen, but what my mom asked was "Why don't you just get a new one? You have already used it for 2 years!". We have all moved on to a mindset that says :
  • A mobile phone is for 1-2 years
  • A washing machine/TV is for 3-5 years.
  • A car is for 5 years and the list goes on.

NB: And ourselves for 60-65 years not more than that.

Last edited by kamilharis : 26th January 2021 at 15:10.
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Old 26th January 2021, 15:14   #54
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

I think the problem here is not about manufacturers throttling the products’ longevity to force the customer to change to a newer version. Technology advancements used to happen at a slower pace earlier compared to how it is now. Products gets obsolete at a faster pace now, and if someone is willing to live with an old product, it is still possible to do so; you see people still using an iPhone 6, or a 10 year old modern car without any issues. I had a basic Panasonic TV panel which conked off after 5 years; repairing that was a possibility but for the cost of repairing the old panel we can get a new TV with better tech – the problem here is with me the consumer. I don’t want to spend 400$ + labour on an old non-smart TV when I can get a new (and bigger) smart TV for the same price.

And about cars – when something goes wrong with an old product (say a Maruti 800), it’s a small hack for the friendly neighborhood garage. The owner will be happy to get back into the car and drive it around if the basics are working well, because the product itself is so basic. At the same time if a 3 year old modern car met with an accident, the owner probably won’t be comfortable to repair and drive that car again because of the modern age electronics and safety systems involved. The worry can be about the car’s structural integrity, whether the active and passive safety systems will function well, and so on. Its again a choice made by the consumer, considering all aspects involved.
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Old 26th January 2021, 15:44   #55
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

The premise of this thread reminded me of a story in tinkle. A potter was very sad that his pots break very easily. A fairy appears and grants him a wish. He wished his pots would be unbreakable. Soon he becomes famous as the potter who sells unbreakable pots. After a high season he notices people are not buying his pots anymore. Since the old ones never broke. He pleads the fairy to undo his wish as his livelihood would be ruined.

Coming to the topic here, apart from tech which is evolving very fast, many other things have limited life due to time vs price issues. In furnitures its engineered wood, with buildings we have construction quality suffering due to poor raw materials and faster construction methods. Also faster production is usually at the cost of quality.

Over the years our society has developed a use and throw mentality for most things. Things are engineered such that many a times repair cost comes close to a new purchase. This is mostly the case with electric appliances.

Even with cars it is part replacement over repair. My friend had to replace the ac condenser and alternator of his Chevy Spark due to water damage. He had to spend 25k on it for a car he had bought for 50k in the first place. There was no scope to repair these items. Maybe the case would be different with MS or Hyundai, but how many car companies have engineered these parts with repairability in mind?


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Hell, is there really any reason to change your smartphone every 1 - 2 years?
Agree with everything except for this, i had bought a samsung flagship in 2014 and kept it for over 3 years with rugged use. When the phone finally got damaged beyond repair. I bought an entry level MI phone to realise it had more usable features than my outgoing samsung which costed 4 times more. Since then, i purchase phones only with a max of 2 years of intended use after which I take exchange benefits and go for a newer model.
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Old 26th January 2021, 16:07   #56
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

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Even with cars it is part replacement over repair. My friend had to replace the ac condenser and alternator of his Chevy Spark due to water damage. He had to spend 25k on it for a car he had bought for 50k in the first place. There was no scope to repair these items. Maybe the case would be different with MS or Hyundai, but how many car companies have engineered these parts with repairability in mind?
This reminded me of my time in Qatar for a few years. The middle east really has excellent garages almost every where especially for AC works. This friend had an issue with his Honda Pilot AC and we got it repaired at a fraction of the cost compared to the company replacing the condensor. Spending 6 years in the GCC I realised how few buyers go to the service centres to repair OR change parts. Almost everyone uses a trusted garage and most of the time the parts are repaired as much as possible and trust me they last well. Also a note most of these really skilled garages had Pakistani staff.
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Old 26th January 2021, 16:13   #57
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

Probably off topic, but what was the use of depicting a BMW E46 in the thread preview thumbnail? I only came for that but found a kind of smackdown competition of sorts
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Old 26th January 2021, 17:46   #58
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

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Complaining about “stuff that was better before” is the realm of old sad folks. Unfortunately, I see a lot of young folks into it as well these days.
I would also agree that making a carpet statement "all modern stuff are bad" is grossly wrong. Undoubtedly things are better than ever. However, some manufacturers IMO do design stuff deliberately bad and that perhaps leads to gross generalization.

For example, the first television at my home was a black and white CRT (Solidaire) that served us a decade. We then upgraded to a color CRT (Onida) which served us 25 years and was still counting when we moved to LEDs. Since then, we are changing every two or three years.

I once bought a 50" Micromax and it's board went kaput within 6 months. I replaced under warranty only to last 6 more months. Now out of warranty, it costed me 40% of new TV. Again it only lasted another 6 months. I scraped it and bought a Japanese TV which runs like charm (touch wood) since 4 years.
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Old 26th January 2021, 18:29   #59
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

One of the things that is changing, whether in cars, coffeemakers, or washing machines is that they are made up from a number of sub assemblies. Very often those subassemblies are not made by the manufacturing itself. Whereas it is a very efficient way of producing a car, or a coffee maker, it does create additional challenges in maintainability, spare parts and so on.

Let me give an example:

Quite some years ago, when we lived in the UK, a very dear friend of ours bought a Fiat X19. Nice little sports with pop up headlights. One of the headlights failed to pop up one day. So she took it to the Fiat dealer and was quoted hundreds of pounds to get it replaced.

i offered to have a look, took the whole unit out, opened it up and eventually traced it to a broken diode. Went into Brighton, bought a new diode, at the huge expense of 50 pence, soldered it back in and everything worked as before. Took me a couple of hours, but of course I never charged here.

In order to do most of the repairs efficiently, most manufacturers try and standardise repair and parts as much as they can. It means they have less stock and can work with standardised repair prices. So it works in most cases.

That pop up head light is a piece of marvellous engineering by itself. With little gears, levers, e-motor, electronics etc. Probably 50-60 individual parts already! Every single one of them could, potentially, break.

In order to fix anything you need time available, at a very cheap rate, and usually a lot of experience in a vast array of different (technical) topics. Companies would balk at that. Unless you are operating in an absolute niche market, nobody would be willing to pay for that. India being somewhat different, where at least mechanics have relatively low wages, but then again, if this forum is anything to go by, their level of competence, let alone schooling has, let us say room for improvement. Not sure how many street mechanics in Delhi would be able to trace a faulty diode on a PCB? No disrespect, I have seen them do amazing other stuff.

I like tinkering. Anything that breaks down in our house, our kids houses, or our friends and I will have a go at; Car, washing machines, coffee makers, TV, bicycles, Central heating System, AC, you name it and I have taken it apart. i have worked on ships, planes and trains. The only thing I have not worked on is the space shuttle, but only because NASA never asked and we all know what happened with it.

I am part of is what is known as our local repair-cafe. It is all volunteers, we have use of our village hall.

People who have a problem with any kind of (home) appliance and can’t afford to buy a new one can bring their stuff and we try to fix it. We can fix almost anything. At almost 62, I am by far the youngest. I am also the only one still working. The other guys (no girls) have all been retired for a very long time.

In special case we might even visit people at their homes. (the other day somebody had a problem with their stair elevator and was stuck in her bedroom!)

So we open up stuff that was never designed or meant to be opened up in the first place. Coffeemakers, mixers, electric razors, sewing machines, you name it. We have experts in any topic under the sun. And once you have cracked open your thirtieth coffeemaker, the next one, even when a different make and model, becomes routine.

The most time consuming is finding parts, in some cases, we might be able to make simple parts too. (E.g. I have a lathe and mini mall). And we have a few local companies that help out with lending as specialised tools free of charge, and one hardware store provides us with all kinds of parts, bolts, wire etc at cost.

So in my experience almost anything can be repaired. But it is down to how much time and knowledge/competence you can pour into it. Whether that makes sense, that could be economic, technical and or sentimental sense, is in the eye of the beholder.

Classic car owners are a good example: The tend to be able to fix just about anything on their cars. In 90% of the cases it never makes economic sense. They just enjoy tinkering and or want their car restored, serviced in top condition and cost is not a huge concern. (I have poured way, way, way more money in my classic cars then any of them ever cost. buying you classic car tends to be the cheap part of classic car ownership.)

To that effect, DSG boxes are being opened up, serviced, overhauled by ethusiatic DIY car nuts already. It is not that difficult, just very different than dealing with an old school manual box. You need to make some special (mechanical) tools. Everything is fixable and almost everything is being fixed.

The sort of obsolescence being discussed here is not a technical one. It is purely an economic one. In many cases it is just more efficient to replace a whole unit, or a whole subassembly. Rather than to try and identify a fault at a component level. The days of soldering components on a PCB are beyond us. That has led to a drastically increased reliability and unit cost price reduction.

Storing a car in a warehouse broken down into individual components is a huge complex task. Costing way more than the car itself. So bringing down the number of components you use and stock, by using sub assemblies makes a lot of economic sense. Until you ran into a story such as mine, where I could fix a single component for 50 pence only. But you can not come up with a economically viable business model to stock and repair cars, (or most stuff these day) at an individual component.

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Old 26th January 2021, 19:24   #60
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Re: Planned Obsolescence: Is everything indirectly a subscription?

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I like tinkering. Anything that breaks down in our house, our kids houses, or our friends and I will have a go at; Car, washing machines, coffee makers, TV, bicycles, Central heating System, AC, you name it and I have taken it apart. i have worked on ships, planes and trains. The only thing I have not worked on is the space shuttle, but only because NASA never asked and we all know what happened with it.
Wow that sounds amazing !! I am fascinated of such kind who take their passion beyond just a hobby

Imagine if there were such repair cafe's even working for a good profit beginning to mushroom over. It would change the entire scene of choices at hand for people who prefer keeping their cars long term. Just specialising in refurbishing parts of known issues in cars
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